Here I am... how great this is thematically, then I realize the buff part strengthens the roll-play instead of the role-play.

I just do a medical scan, before I apply first aid to you.

Let me do a quick scan of this network for a defending slicer, before I hack it.

I clean all our materials and check for mechanical weak spots, before I start the crafting.

In short, while it can support all kind of stuff, and it is the most potent strain recovery in the whole system, I feel Ebb/Flow makes the game slower, less cinematic.

2 hours ago, AeroEng42 said:

I understand the the basic Flow power only affects you, but does the Range upgrade apply to both Ebb and Flow? Or just Ebb? Because the later Flow control upgrades could be amazing if their success and advantage boosted allies as well. The wording of those control upgrades seem to suggest it would affect all other skill checks until end of your next turn, which could means allies and opponents to keep it balanced. That could make this power a lot stronger, and a lot more risky. What are your thoughts? Does the extra text in the book clarify this?

It applies to both. Range update is two pips, from short to engaged.

To add 1 advantage to your party members at short range you need to generate 4 pips! 1 for base ability, 2 for short range, 1 for that 1 advantage.

What Force rating do you think you would need to achieve this?
Of course a Sage's or Navigator's 'One with the Universe' combined with the new Ascetic's 'Empty Soul' nets you WWB force pips... but without these, I wouldn't recommend buying deep into this power.

My current assessment is for non-sage/navigator or ascetic is like
FR 1-2 -> only the base power
FR 3-4 -> only the first strength upgrade and the magnitude upgrade in the second row

Only at FR 5-6 with the above upgrades (Sage, Navigator, Ascetic) I would buy deep into this power, but not before.

Basically it's on par with Protect/Unleash for Force requirements. But it's only really if you want all Light or all Dark that it has that problem. If you swing both ways then you can get by with less.

The first Strength Upgrade is something I would buy even with FR1 as it allows you to use that second pip that can occur even on just one Force die. Without this Upgrade, that second pip is useless.

7 hours ago, DerWish said:

It applies to both. Range update is two pips, from short to engaged.

To add 1 advantage to your party members at short range you need to generate 4 pips! 1 for base ability, 2 for short range, 1 for that 1 advantage.

I don't see anything in the description of the Ebb/Flow power that allows it to buff allies. All references to healing strain, or gaining advantage/success are limited to the force user that used the power.

4 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I don't see anything in the description of the Ebb/Flow power that allows it to buff allies. All references to healing strain, or gaining advantage/success are limited to the force user that used the power.

And you are absolutely right!

Both control upgrades clearly specify:
1) advantage and success target only the force user's next same skill roll
2) threat and failure only target engaged opponents

So you won't add advantages to your party members...

Thank you!
This made me rethink the how to utilize this power. So even at FR 3 both control upgrades would make sense for a melee focused character.
No need for the magnitude upgrade or the range upgrade.

I absolutely can envision two characters fighting side by side giving out 2-5 failures every turn to engaged opponents, now THIS IS a cinematic and thematically exciting concept.

Also... this is the best way to explain how a Master can protect his Padawan in a hot combat situation and how both can sustain the reflects going.

It certainly is an excellent way to maintain Reflect/Parry and ensure Improved versions of both keep being triggered.

So in all those episodes of TCW when the protagonist are having long conversations during fights it's so Obi Wan can keep rolling Leadership with Ebb/Flow!

So after spending some time analyzing Ebb/Flow further, and also reading over the commentary here, my conclusion is Ebb/Flow is conceptually a very interesting thematic power, but from a mechanical design very poor.

I am not sure overpowered is the right word for this Force Power, but it just so effectively mimics many other Force Power and talents that already exist. What it really brings to the table, once you get the proper upgrades is tremendous flexibility. Certain previously published talents become next to useless once you've advanced far enough (and we are only talking 60 XP her to get a lot of the really good stuff) in the tree. Some simple number crunching shows it can replace about 225 XP worth of other talents and force powers/upgrades, and this only takes into account the cost of the specific talent/power/upgrade; it does not include anything you might have to purchase in the relevant tree first. Also keep in mind that the effects of Ebb/Flow are on top of whatever skill check you were already making. There is a big action economy boost from that aspect.

All in all, I will call it a cool thematic power, but very poorly implemented mechanically. I cannot see allowing it my campaigns.

I am open to being proven wrong here.

2 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

So after spending some time analyzing Ebb/Flow further, and also reading over the commentary here, my conclusion is Ebb/Flow is conceptually a very interesting thematic power, but from a mechanical design very poor.

I am not sure overpowered is the right word for this Force Power, but it just so effectively mimics many other Force Power and talents that already exist. What it really brings to the table, once you get the proper upgrades is tremendous flexibility. Certain previously published talents become next to useless once you've advanced far enough (and we are only talking 60 XP her to get a lot of the really good stuff) in the tree. Some simple number crunching shows it can replace about 225 XP worth of other talents and force powers/upgrades, and this only takes into account the cost of the specific talent/power/upgrade; it does not include anything you might have to purchase in the relevant tree first. Also keep in mind that the effects of Ebb/Flow are on top of whatever skill check you were already making. There is a big action economy boost from that aspect.

All in all, I will call it a cool thematic power, but very poorly implemented mechanically. I cannot see allowing it my campaigns.

I am open to being proven wrong here.

Magnus - interested in seeing your analysis

what becomes redundant?

one question- did you take into account the need to get more force rating to be able to fire this off?

I really think that in practice the delay on any success or Advantage will play a major role in balancing this power. Combat changes rapidly in this game and outside combat it's rare to use the same skill twice in a row.

The ability to add Failure and Threat is less common and has the unfortunate side effect of causing your allies problems.

Then honestly because you need to use a Force Power to do it then I wouldn't let other Active talents be also used at the same time therefore no Ebb/Flow with Field Commander at my table. The Enhanced Leader talent though is a Passive talent so it would apply at my table to Field Commander.

1 hour ago, Random Bystander said:

Magnus - interested in seeing your analysis

what becomes redundant?

one question- did you take into account the need to get more force rating to be able to fire this off?

Consider every Force Power or Talent out there that current lets you add your force rating to specific skill checks and then add success and/or advantage per Force Pip. You can effectively do these now with Ebb/Flow, and now you are no longer limited to specifics skills. Any skill will work. Yes there is a difference in that you have a one round delay; but in practice I suspect players will adapt to this aspect quickly and learn how to mitigate it. Also I am really uncertain how to handle the use of this power out of combat. They way it is designed is almost guaranteed to see cheesy uses of skills outside of combat so a player can get the desired bonus 'next round'. As a GM, I know I am well within my right to discourage such silly uses of a power, but 1.) I do want players to feel they can use the stuff they spent XP on and 2.) The last thing I want in my hobby is more inter-personal conflict, even minor ones between friends, because a power is poorly written. If the intent is to not let Ebb/Flow be used outside of combat, or in some other way for it to be limited, why not simply write it that way?

Now consider any talent or power that adds threat or failure to an opponent's check; Ebb/Flow can mimic this ability without any delay, it can do it with any skill, and it can do it on top of a skill check. Just compare Ebb/Flow against Suppress. The Suppress basic power requires its own action to add 1 failure to any hostile force power checks. Ebb/Flow can do that in addition to your skill check, such as a lightsaber check. Or consider the 25 point Shien talent 'Disruptive Strike'. If you have Ebb/Flow and the right upgrades, you really don't ever needs this talent, and now anyone can effectively get what previously only Shien Experts could do. Another example is the 4th ranked Misdirect talent that adds threat to any rolls against you per committed force die. I would submit you're better off using Ebb/Flow, as you don't have to commit FD, and again you are getting the benefit of the underlying skill check.

Regarding Force Ratings; every Force Power & Talent benefits from a higher Force Rating. It is not a unique requirement to make the Ebb/Flow power work. So I don't see this as any kind of barrier or issue that makes Ebb/Flow different.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

I really think that in practice the delay on any success or Advantage will play a major role in balancing this power. Combat changes rapidly in this game and outside combat it's rare to use the same skill twice in a row.

I hope you are right. I suspect it will be the other way around, players will quickly find the one round delay isn't much of an impact, or at least has reasonable work-arounds.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

The ability to add Failure and Threat is less common and has the unfortunate side effect of causing your allies problems.

The control talents that lets you add threat or failure doesn't impact your allies; the wording is '...add [Failure/Threat] to all checks made by engaged opponents ..."

It also doesn't matter if you succeed or fail on the base skill check; the Ebb/Flow effect is automatic.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

Then honestly because you need to use a Force Power to do it then I wouldn't let other Active talents be also used at the same time therefore no Ebb/Flow with Field Commander at my table. The Enhanced Leader talent though is a Passive talent so it would apply at my table to Field Commander.

I would definitely not allow Ebb/Flow to be stacked with any actual Force Powers that have a skill roll attached to them. For one, you can only add up to your Force Rating to a single skill check. And for two, I had thought the devs commented that you cannot stack Force Powers this way. So absolutely no stacking Ebb/Flow with Hawk Bat Swoop, or Draw Closer, or the like.

38 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I would definitely not allow Ebb/Flow to be stacked with any actual Force Powers that have a skill roll attached to them. For one, you can only add up to your Force Rating to a single skill check. And for two, I had thought the devs commented that you cannot stack Force Powers this way. So absolutely no stacking Ebb/Flow with Hawk Bat Swoop, or Draw Closer, or the like.

I can see why you wouldn't want them to stack, it can get powerful. Per the rules, though, you're not stacking powers together; you are only adding successes to a further skill roll. BUT, and here's the big 'but', using something like Flow instead of Hawk Bat Swoop is actually a sub-par option. You can HBS every turn, you can combo E/F with it every other turn. You won't be able to activate qualities as often since you are pooling adv. every other turn. You may get a massive hit and crit every other turn w/the combo but you're more likely able to hit and crit every turn w/HBS. The same thing with something like scathing tirade. The Influence control upgrade is a better option because you are more likely to produce upgrades than Flow, it's used as you make the roll instead of the turn before, and you should generate more favorable results.

Mechanically Ebb/Flow is a simple addition to any and all checks. It cannot be used while using other force powers or talents, like Protect/Unleash, Heal/Harm, Djem So or HBS, but it works with anything 'mundane'. But because of it's limitations with requiring engaged for Ebb, the same skill for Flow, and a lot of pips to make it more useful than a specialized talent or power, it won't be able to break encounters by itself. The basic Ebb is a slight damage boost for some strain, Flow is an activatable single-rank second wind every turn. At high investment levels you can be almost as good as someone specializing in something like Scathing Tirade, Protect/Unleash, or any of the other comparable abilities, but never quite as good. You just have the benefit of a jack-of-all-trades buff. You get to use the Force every turn regardless of the situation.

3 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I hope you are right. I suspect it will be the other way around, players will quickly find the one round delay isn't much of an impact, or at least has reasonable work-arounds.

The control talents that lets you add threat or failure doesn't impact your allies; the wording is '...add [Failure/Threat] to all checks made by engaged opponents ..

It also doesn't matter if you succeed or fail on the base skill check; the Ebb/Flow effect is automatic.

Actually it does matter check the rules on combined force checks if you fail the skill check the force ability being used as part of the check also fails and unlike enhance you dont get to apply the success or advantage to the check prior to calculating the results , so if the base skill checks fails you get nothing.

16 minutes ago, syrath said:

Actually it does matter check the rules on combined force checks if you fail the skill check the force ability being used as part of the check also fails and unlike enhance you dont get to apply the success or advantage to the check prior to calculating the results , so if the base skill checks fails you get nothing.

Interesting observation.

After reading the rules for Combined Force Power Checks (pp 280 - 281) of the F&D Corebook, I now agree.

The key wording in the middle of the second paragraph of this rules section:

"Unless stated otherwise, the character must generate enough Force Pips to activate the Force Talent or Force Power's basic power (or appropriate Control upgrades) and must generate at least one uncancelled success for the check to succeed."

So if you fail the underlying skill check, Ebb/Flow does nothing it would appear.

On 6/16/2017 at 2:33 PM, DerWish said:

Here I am... how great this is thematically, then I realize the buff part strengthens the roll-play instead of the role-play.

I just do a medical scan, before I apply first aid to you.

Let me do a quick scan of this network for a defending slicer, before I hack it.

I clean all our materials and check for mechanical weak spots, before I start the crafting.

In short, while it can support all kind of stuff, and it is the most potent strain recovery in the whole system, I feel Ebb/Flow makes the game slower, less cinematic.

I wouldn't allow those to be separate Actions. Those are all just examples of tying to split one Action into pieces to game the system.

However, you could do the following: Use Flow with Medicine when applying first aid to one of your companions and gain the benefits the following turn when applying first aid to a second companion.

In general though, the system guideline of only rolling when it is necessary should be used to prevent splitting a single task up just to gain the benefit of Flow.

2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I wouldn't allow those to be separate Actions. Those are all just examples of tying to split one Action into pieces to game the system.

However, you could do the following: Use Flow with Medicine when applying first aid to one of your companions and gain the benefits the following turn when applying first aid to a second companion.

In general though, the system guideline of only rolling when it is necessary should be used to prevent splitting a single task up just to gain the benefit of Flow.

And this is exactly why I don't like Flow. As you well said it motivates players to try and game the system.

As I said to my GM: 'I just meditate and find the right time to take action, that's what Flow is, right? Why should it be simple to use with with aggressive actions and not with peaceful application? Why is it legal to double dip for lightsaber attack, but not for a mechanic check?'

Yeah, I don't like this FP very much as it can easily become a must-have or a fully avoid, and definitely will result in the most house rules out of all Force powers.

I'm confused how is it simple to use with aggressive actions?

If you mean combat actions well yes, but that does not indicate aggression.

Ebb/Flow works best when being used for repeated actions like slicing into a computer system, stealthfully avoiding imperials, handling delicate negotiations, building things, piloting a starship, searching ruins, pursuing or escaping someone and yes healing multiple people using the reverse triage system.

And of course as usual people condemning it are completely ignoring the actual xp cost that will require months of play to max it out.

Placing detonite charges all over the enemy base, doing each turn a damage control action to manage the strain to your ship that this insane hotshot is causing. Flow works just fine with mechanic too. ;-)

2 hours ago, Decorus said:

And of course as usual people condemning it are completely ignoring the actual xp cost that will require months of play to max it out.

This comment confuses me.

For +90 - 95 XP I can have a Force Rating increase, the Ebb/Flow Basic power and the 2nd rank strength upgrade. For 50 more XP, I can get the Control and Strength upgrades (plus the range upgrade) that let me add Success/Failure or Advantage/Threat to a roll. This is still less than a Knight Level character, and it presumes I stuck all my starting XP into attributes and/or skills.

90-95 XP 10 xp a session is 9 sessions or 9 weeks another 50 exp is another 5 weeks of play

so 14 weeks of play gets you to that point there are 52 weeks in a year. Thats 3 months a quarter of a year of playtime to reach that point.

I stand by my statement.

On 2017-06-16 at 11:33 AM, DerWish said:

I just do a medical scan, before I apply first aid to you.

Let me do a quick scan of this network for a defending slicer, before I hack it.

I clean all our materials and check for mechanical weak spots, before I start the crafting.

"You mean you don't do those things normally?" (Here come some extra difficulty/setback dice...)

Technically slicing should be broken down into

Step 1 gain access

Step 2 locate files/program in the system

Step 3 Download files/activate program

Step 4 erase tracks

Step 5 log out

Step 6 Decrypt the files

The potential for 'double tap' on skills is one reason why Ebb/Flow doesn't negate the other force powers. Someone with both Flow and Enhance has the option to use Flow on round one and Enhance on round two, with Enhance letting them fill any holes left by the guesswork of round one's Flow use. Is this preferable to a smaller benefit every turn (using either Flow or Enhance each turn)? That'll depend on the circumstance and the number of rounds you have to put into it (with the added possibility that it might all be wasted if the situation changes by the next round). And, as with all of these powers, someone who wants to be reliably good at a particular thing is usually better served to invest in skill ranks and talents.

As per my post above, I'd say that any obvious attempts at gaming the system (especially outside of structured time) don't really work because those pre-action actions aren't really separate activities. Something like repairing system strain on the ship with Mechanics every turn is valid - but at that point you're in structured time and using your turn up with each check anyway and a character who'd spent equivalent XP on being better at mechanics would easily outperform the Flow user.

12 minutes ago, Garran said:

The potential for 'double tap' on skills is one reason why Ebb/Flow doesn't negate the other force powers. Someone with both Flow and Enhance has the option to use Flow on round one and Enhance on round two, with Enhance letting them fill any holes left by the guesswork of round one's Flow use. Is this preferable to a smaller benefit every turn (using either Flow or Enhance each turn)? That'll depend on the circumstance and the number of rounds you have to put into it (with the added possibility that it might all be wasted if the situation changes by the next round). And, as with all of these powers, someone who wants to be reliably good at a particular thing is usually better served to invest in skill ranks and talents.

As per my post above, I'd say that any obvious attempts at gaming the system (especially outside of structured time) don't really work because those pre-action actions aren't really separate activities. Something like repairing system strain on the ship with Mechanics every turn is valid - but at that point you're in structured time and using your turn up with each check anyway and a character who'd spent equivalent XP on being better at mechanics would easily outperform the Flow user.

Of course, if said character has the higher ranks of Mechanics 9and the Attribute to go with it) combined with an Ebb/Flow check, he'd really nail the check.