Okay, got my copy in hand, and looked over the Ebb/Flow power.

Near as I can tell, the "double tap" tactic is that Magnus described is perfectly legit. Granted, it's a fair investment of XP (10 for base power, at least another 30 to get the two Control upgrades in question, plus 20 for the Strength upgrades, and then however much XP to get Force Rating to 2 to have a snowball's chance of getting all three effects to trigger).

Now, to get the full monty of healing 1 strain plus adding 2 advantage and 2 successes to your next check means you'd need 5 Force Points, putting that into the realm of Force Rating 3, or Force Rating 4 if you want to regularly accomplish it without being too reliant upon using those dark side pips on your Force dice. Taking out the Strength upgrades and settling for just the extra success and advantage requires 3 Force points. At FR 1, you're probably looking at just two of the three effects at best, or maybe one of them if you've got the appropriate Strength upgrade.

So it's a cool trick, but it's not going to veer anywhere close to game-breaking without a substantial investment of XP, and by that point the other PCs should have some pretty awesome tricks of their own to call upon.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Well there you go That's how it's different (and in my mind significantly better) than the similar effect of Influence.

By itself the Ebb/Flow isn't better as I see it, because you can still only do one strain per pip, whereas Influence can do 2 strain per pip. But where Ebb/Flow gives some flexibility is that you can do this strain damage on top of whatever attack (or skill check) you were already making. Heck combine it with a stun damaging weapon, and you can do a lot of strain damage in one round.

14 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

By itself the Ebb/Flow isn't better as I see it, because you can still only do one strain per pip, whereas Influence can do 2 strain per pip. But where Ebb/Flow gives some flexibility is that you can do this strain damage on top of whatever attack (or skill check) you were already making. Heck combine it with a stun damaging weapon, and you can do a lot of strain damage in one round.

I'm pretty sure one of those upgrades increases the strain to 2 per pip, and allows you to activate it multiple times. I'll double check when I get home.

But yes, coupled with some other strain related action, and you've got a very powerful, non-lethal way to deal with threats. You've also got a nice way to slowly work someone down while doing non-combat related things. Couple it with some of the social talents like Scathing Tirade, or any other non-combat check, you can slowly wear down their desire to fight, while also doing something else.

How do others interpret the 10XP control upgrade on the 5th rank of the tree?

From what I can tell, you basically commit a force die to get it back to all skill checks, BUT you have to use all pips generated, and you don't have to tap a destiny point to use Dark Side pips.

7 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

How do others interpret the 10XP control upgrade on the 5th rank of the tree?

From what I can tell, you basically commit a force die to get it back to all skill checks, BUT you have to use all pips generated, and you don't have to tap a destiny point to use Dark Side pips.

Jup, it basically sounds like the base of Juyo/Vaapad , going with the flow of dark and light and embracing it all. The use of this force ability will make it hard to stay a paragon of good, but you should be able to not fall to the dark side either if you are careful with what fights you take.

If I'm reading it right you have to use the dark side pips and the conflict/strain is automatic.

When I first read this power, I thought of the awesome bit of foreshadowing that goes all the way back to the Edge of the Empire Beta rulebook, page 144 under Recovering From Strain: "It is also rumored that some Jedi have mastered a technique that allows them to ignore the effects of strain, or ease the minds of others to help them recover more quickly." This is literally the single ability I've been waiting for since this game was produced.

Plus Ascetic has Empty Mind that clears all strain at the end of each encounter which goes along with that quote as well.

8 minutes ago, biggreen10 said:

Plus Ascetic has Empty Mind that clears all strain at the end of each encounter which goes along with that quote as well.

And really, you look at the traditional Jedi, and they're pretty much all ascetics. They get by with the robes, their lightsabers, and maybe a credit chip. Plus some creative Destiny Point usage, of course.

"Yes, it just so happens that we have aquata breathers!" *flips DP token*

"Why yes, I did think to purchase a small tracking device and bring it with me to Kamino!" *flips DP token*

But yeah. Asceticism would seem to be part and parcel of the Jedi way.

I don't see the basic power to be useless at all. The fact that a FR1 with few other uses for that FR can go with the Flow to roll a Force Die with every check and have an added chance to recover a point of Strain is pretty awesome. It's not that the power itself adds a significant new capability, it's that it's omni-applicable. Of course, there's also Ebb for a way to wear on the Strain of others in any circumstance where you can get close , and both options certainly get better with upgrades (and an increased FR).

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Of course, there's also Ebb for a way to wear on the Strain of others in any circumstance where you can get close , and both options certainly get better with upgrades (and an increased FR).

Ebb would be fantastic for a Shii-Cho Knight. You're already trying to engage with any minion group that you can

32 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Ebb would be fantastic for a Shii-Cho Knight. You're already trying to engage with any minion group that you can

And depending on the size of the minion group, you could quite possibly take out an additional minion, given how damage is allocated, especially if you've got the Strength upgrade to increase the strain damage/recovery to 2.

Of course, this power's handy to have for any LS Form PC since it's a ready source of strain recovery. I suspect that if I allowed the Soresu Defender PC in my FaD campaign to take this power, he'd be ecstatic since strain management is one his character's biggest challenges, even more so since he went into Protector and grabbed Circle of Defense.

21 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And depending on the size of the minion group, you could quite possibly take out an additional minion, given how damage is allocated, especially if you've got the Strength upgrade to increase the strain damage/recovery to 2.

Of course, this power's handy to have for any LS Form PC since it's a ready source of strain recovery. I suspect that if I allowed the Soresu Defender PC in my FaD campaign to take this power, he'd be ecstatic since strain management is one his character's biggest challenges, even more so since he went into Protector and grabbed Circle of Defense.

Are you suggesting that Ebb would inflict one Strain (plus more with Strength upgrade) per minion to a minion group? I had thought that the entire group still counted as one target. The way that I think you're suggesting makes it devastating to minion groups.

9 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Are you suggesting that Ebb would inflict one Strain (plus more with Strength upgrade) per minion to a minion group? I had thought that the entire group still counted as one target. The way that I think you're suggesting makes it devastating to minion groups.

Note the language, "all other engaged characters." Not the usual ambiguous "targets" language.

It's like having the Blast effect on a Force Power, very handy, incredibly devastating.

15 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Note the language, "all other engaged characters." Not the usual ambiguous "targets" language.

5 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

It's like having the Blast effect on a Force Power, very handy, incredibly devastating.

Yep, which means that engaged allies are also affected.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yep, which means that engaged allies are also affected.

Quite. Which is why the Magnitude upgrade exists!

Or, y'know, stop clustering together with all your allies. I would have thought your GM would have already discouraged that behavior with the occasional grenade

Ebb/Flow is quite amazing - my Niman Disciple Jedi is definitely getting that power once I have all the parts of Move that I want. Especially using it against minion groups which are usually quite a pain to deal with...

BTW, EBB/FLOW:
I am with the force, the force is with me, I am one with the force, the force is with me, I am one with the force … it really, really fits and it really, really is super powerful.

Rey and Chirrut Îmwe seem both users of that force power.

Bounty Hunter: Martial Artist, Force Emergent + Exile, Brawl 6, Brawn 5, Ebb/Flow, takes about 500 xp gained, but it really locks great.

3 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Quite. Which is why the Magnitude upgrade exists!

Or, y'know, stop clustering together with all your allies. I would have thought your GM would have already discouraged that behavior with the occasional grenade

Certainly an nteresting power to throw down in a crowded cantina full of rowdy patrons, throw a few Strength upgrades and a range at a Deception check and suddenly the entire crowd decide the nights over quickly depart!

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

Ebb would be fantastic for a Shii-Cho Knight. You're already trying to engage with any minion group that you can

It would be quite fantastic with a lot of things, it works for so many checks, coercion should be awesome with it as well. Which immediately reminds me of aggressors like Maul too. Can yoz imagine how devastating fearsome becomes when you can add a few failures to the enemy check?

13 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Certainly an nteresting power to throw down in a crowded cantina full of rowdy patrons, throw a few Strength upgrades and a range at a Deception check and suddenly the entire crowd decide the nights over quickly depart!

"Man, that was one heck of a bender last night, am I right?"
"Duuuude."

14 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Are you suggesting that Ebb would inflict one Strain (plus more with Strength upgrade) per minion to a minion group? I had thought that the entire group still counted as one target. The way that I think you're suggesting makes it devastating to minion groups.

I made sure to check how the basic power was worded, and it does say "characters" as opposed to "targets." So yeah, it can be pretty devastating to minion groups, especially the larger ones but could also provide enough of a damage kicker to seriously impact the smaller minion groups.

You just need to be wary of any allies (PCs or otherwise) or innocent bystanders being caught in the area of effect.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I made sure to check how the basic power was worded, and it does say "characters" as opposed to "targets." So yeah, it can be pretty devastating to minion groups, especially the larger ones but could also provide enough of a damage kicker to seriously impact the smaller minion groups.

You just need to be wary of any allies (PCs or otherwise) or innocent bystanders being caught in the area of effect.

It is definitely not the way to go when you are commanding your own minion group(s).

I haven't gotten my hands on my copy yet (flgs is waiting for distributor to send it out), but after reading these forums I am getting so pumped for all the great new content!

I understand the the basic Flow power only affects you, but does the Range upgrade apply to both Ebb and Flow? Or just Ebb? Because the later Flow control upgrades could be amazing if their success and advantage boosted allies as well. The wording of those control upgrades seem to suggest it would affect all other skill checks until end of your next turn, which could means allies and opponents to keep it balanced. That could make this power a lot stronger, and a lot more risky. What are your thoughts? Does the extra text in the book clarify this?