Seeing as some people don't fully grasp the difference between deceptive, dishonorable, illegal, and tactical methods in Rokugani warfare, I thought it'd be a good idea to have forum of people listing examples. Now, these examples can be from your own game, your favorite fiction examples, or even historical examples. Try to clearly label your example as dishonorable, tactical, or what not (things can be more than one, of course). Also remember, there's a fine line between tactical, deceptive, and dishonorable, and not everyone in Rokugan agrees where the line is drawn, and certain situations make things more or less acceptable. So while we might not all agree on what is or is not honorable, do be civil in disagreements please.
A general rule of thumb:

• Deceptive: These are sneaky without really being dishonorable; you'd normally be stupid for not using these tactics in war. Examples include guerrilla and ambush tactics.
• Dishonorable: Tactics you'll be frowned at for doing, but are not necessarily breaking any laws, such as a shugenja surrendering to the enemy and then unleashing a fireball on their siege equipment when they get the chance. These tend to be Scorpion favorites, but they really use them fairly rarely so they can catch people off guard when they do (Keep 'em guessing, boys!). Most Akodo generals know a few tricks like these, though they'll never admit it.
• Illegal: Tactics that outright break the laws of Rokugan, such as burning down a temple where the family of your enemy has gained sanctuary (most of this is also dishonorable and you can expect punishment or even execution for these).
• Tactical: This is the catch-all term for things that don't necessarily fit into the other places, such as the Crane using duelists to eliminate enemy generals before the battle (and the other clans having champions to fight in the general's place, which many people forget is allowed), or Toturi having his troops wait to draw the Crane out of the city walls while his brother's troops were being attacked.

Story Time!
One example I love that I read on a forum once involved an Akodo General player character wanting to take a Crane stronghold; of course, the Crane sent out a duelist. Much to the GM's surprise, the Lion had set up a picnic and tea for the duelist, and invited him to come chat while they discus terms for their upcoming duel.
The Akodo starts quoting various passages from Kakita's "The Sword", especially after the Crane brags he's a decedent of Kakita. The Akodo gets the Crane to agree that Kakita said that the sword is superior to all other weapons. That Kakita said the true swordsman need fear no other weapon or situation,. That Kakita said the perfect one strike can defeat any foe (Kakita was being metaphorical here, but the duelist agreed to it literally). And that Kakita said that the perfect one strike applies to all situations. THEN the Akodo got the duelist to agree that he, under Kakita's teachings, could defeat any opponent, with any weapon, in any situation, with one perfect strike of his sword (something tells me this player had good social dice). Que the Akodo saying he had a soldier in his army that wanted to prove Kakita wrong with his own favorite weapon, in a situation ideal to his weapon of choice. The arrogant duelist agreed and vowed to it with an Otomo Observer being witness.
Que the duelist fighting a Siege Master on his (fully staffed) ballista from 50 yards away, armed only with his sword. For those wondering, the Crane lost. Later, the Akodo general sent a copy of "The Sword" to the duelist's lord, with a note: "Any quote of an ancestor taken out of context is a weapon in your enemy's hand."
I consider this a tactical victory; not even deceptive. The duelist was monumentally idiotic and arrogant, confident that his superior skill at iaijutsu would give him the edge against any weapon...forgetting the 'weapon' can mean anything in war.

It's not really a duel if it is one on many....

18 minutes ago, Silver Crane said:

It's not really a duel if it is one on many....

That's the Crane's fault. He agreed to fight his foe in an situation ideal to his weapon of choice, on his enemy's terms; dueling technically went out the window. the Crane are better off without the sap

I disagree. He agreed to fight his foe, not his foe and crew of lackeys.

8 minutes ago, Silver Crane said:

I disagree. He agreed to fight his foe, not his foe and crew of lackeys.

Semantics, as the Crab would say the crew's part of the weapon's basic function. Just be glad the Akodo general didn't name his whole army as his weapon of choice. Besides, the Crane always call a victory against them dishonorable anyway, so why should anyone care? (joking) Got any stories of your own tactical genius?

Well considering that's not even remotely canon, it doesn't really matter. One player's stupidity does not prove that the tactic was honorable.

Dishonorable: Shinjo Shono on his way to bolster Moto Chagatai's troop in the City of the Twin Frogs against the Lion was stopped along the way by the Imperial Legion to de-escalate the situation. The Legion's leader ( Dragon Duelist, i think) goad and insulted Shono to a duel so they can't reinforce the main Unicorn Army in time. Shono knowing he will lose to the duel, accepted it regardless. When the Dragon steps in to for the duel, Shono shot an arrow through him.

Deceptive: Akodo Dairuko makes Matsu Rika don her Ancestral Armor during the hunt for the Yodotai army. The Yodotai Commander, thinking he has cornered the Lion Champion and would deal a big blow to the Rokugani forces if he kills Dairuko bites to the bait, severing him from his legions and gets face to face with Matsu Rika who has trained all his life to combat the Yodotai commander.

Tactical: the Scorpion never ever risk destroying Ryoko Owari by defending it whenever some clan (Unicorn/Lion) tried to occupy it for themselves. It was costly to rebuild and defending it with what little army the Scorpion has is futile. The Scorpion would just hand it over and retreat..then after a few months or so, the occupier would hand the city back to the Scorpion as the bureaucracy and politics of the City of Lies is just to complex and convoluted that only the Scorpion can manage to make it work.

Illegal: Bayushi Paneki poisoning the Spirit Army the day before the joined forces of Unicorn, Scorpion and Imperial legion liberates the siege on Shiro Iuchi

27 minutes ago, Silver Crane said:

Well considering that's not even remotely canon, it doesn't really matter. One player's stupidity does not prove that the tactic was honorable.

Cannon rarely goes into great detail about tactics in battles, sadly (unless they're the really good ones), probally because most of the writers are not war historians on top of everything else. Haha, but cannon thy want? Cannon they get!

The Battle of Snow and Fire - the Battle that defined the War of Snow and Fire (and gave the war it's name, incidentally), the first war between Phoenix and Dragon (and hopefully the last).
The Elemental Masters led an assault against a Dragon army led Tamori Shaitung and Mirumoto Rosanjin, deep in the Dragon Mountains. The Elemental Masters were expecting an easy victory, but here is why the Dragon won the day.

1. Underestimation and Misinformation: During a Winter Court a few years before the war, Shaitung and the Master of Earth Isawa Taeruko had a (not-so-friendly) contest of power summoning elemental avatars to do battle. Taeruko used Earth, Shaitung used Fire. Taeruko's avatar easily overpowered Shaitung's after a while, and Shaitung was 'humiliated.' Unfortunately for the Phoenix, Shaitung had been playing possum; Earth was the Tamori family's newly chosen elemental focus, not fire; while Taeruko, the most powerful member of the Council at the time, went all out, Shaitung hid her strength and measured her enemy's. The Council of Five believed that Shaitung was a weaker shugenja than she really was, with a talent for blunt Fire magic. During the battle, she instead used incredible Earth magic to reshape the field in her favor, completely undoing their own plans to fight her.
2. Preparation: Before the Battle, Shaitung and Rosanjin (a skilled mountaineer in cannon) scoped out a spot to exploit every advantage their army has while denying the Phoenix's. They set up, and Shaitung spends days communing with the kami of the mountains, connecting with the stubborn Earth. During the battle, the Earth Kami favor the Dragon Shugenja, with the climax being when Shaitung opens the very mountain up to swallow herself and the Masters. Meanwhile, if I recall, the Council's members had not directly participated in the war itself, and were confident that this one battle would be their absolute victory. They were prepared for a magical duel more than a all-out battle. The Masters started out attacking Shaitung one at a time and being beaten back by her (if the flavor-text of the cards is to be believed) and only gathered to fight her as one at the very end, but by then all five were tired and thought she was defeated, when in truth this was her goal all along- to get all five with her so she could make the mountain swallow them up.
3. Dedication and Leadership: Two of the Masters, Riake and Nakamuro, were against the war and fairly pacifist, while two more, Hochiu and Taeruko were warhawks out for blood. The Shiba-Isawa relations were strained and the Shiba were without a strong commander or Champion. Meanwhile, both Shaitung and Rosanjin were popular and trusted by their troops. The Dragon army was united in one mind, while the Pheonix was decided. Also, as mentioned earlier, the Masters were thinking this would be an easy victory, while Shaitung had every intention of dying to defeat them.

It should be noted that most of this info is hard if not impossible to find easily- I only know it because I came across L5R during the Four Winds era and fell in love with the Dragon, so I devoted hours to reading all about them and their war with the Phoenix, including reading every scrap of multiple source-books, fictions, and card flavor text. This is all pinned together from that and inferring the rest from the greater story/common sense (such as the Shiba army's poor leadership at the time).

This is a good example of using deceptive but not dishonorable tactics. Shaitung had been planning for this before the war started (at least to face her enemy Isawa Taeruko), and did everything to tip the odds in her favor, while the Phoenix played into her trap. Had the Phoenix had a strong tactician that could identify the trap about to be sprung, the battle could have easily gone in Phoenix favor. Daring, foresight, and luck all played a roll in the Dragon victory.

19 minutes ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

Dishonorable: Shinjo Shono on his way to bolster Moto Chagatai's troop in the City of the Twin Frogs against the Lion was stopped along the way by the Imperial Legion to de-escalate the situation. The Legion's leader ( Dragon Duelist, i think) goad and insulted Shono to a duel so they can't reinforce the main Unicorn Army in time. Shono knowing he will lose to the duel, accepted it regardless. When the Dragon steps in to for the duel, Shono shot an arrow through him.

Deceptive: Akodo Dairuko makes Matsu Rika don her Ancestral Armor during the hunt for the Yodotai army. The Yodotai Commander, thinking he has cornered the Lion Champion and would deal a big blow to the Rokugani forces if he kills Dairuko bites to the bait, severing him from his legions and gets face to face with Matsu Rika who has trained all his life to combat the Yodotai commander.

Tactical: the Scorpion never ever risk destroying Ryoko Owari by defending it whenever some clan (Unicorn/Lion) tried to occupy it for themselves. It was costly to rebuild and defending it with what little army the Scorpion has is futile. The Scorpion would just hand it over and retreat..then after a few months or so, the occupier would hand the city back to the Scorpion as the bureaucracy and politics of the City of Lies is just to complex and convoluted that only the Scorpion can manage to make it work.

Illegal: Bayushi Paneki poisoning the Spirit Army the day before the joined forces of Unicorn, Scorpion and Imperial legion liberates the siege on Shiro Iuchi

This is all perfect examples, but the stuff about the honorable Bayushi Paneki poisoning the well is pure rumor sprung up by jealous rivals (seriously, while we all know he did it, it is considered just a rumor in Rokugan proper).
I don't remember the one about Shono taking out the Dragon with an arrow...sounds so in character for poor Shono (always having to do what's necessary and never getting thanks for it). What fiction is that in? It sounds like a read for a good laugh.

http://www.kazenoshiro.com/2007/04/20/the-war-of-the-rich-frog-part-one/

While this is a cool topic to see. This story of a ballista duel reminds me of Shouting Matsu's post on /TG/ from.... five or six years ago? http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16977503/ It was mostly lion propoganda for the lulz, im suprised one of your players used that in game, good for them!

I do think people examining warfare in Rokugan should think about how honorable combat is not simply restricted to charging at your enemy screaming the names of your ancestors at the top of your lungs, unless of course you're a Matsu. Then its the only option.

17 hours ago, Samurai Fox said:

Story Time!
One example I love that I read on a forum once involved an Akodo General player character wanting to take a Crane stronghold; of course, the Crane sent out a duelist. Much to the GM's surprise, the Lion had set up a picnic and tea for the duelist, and invited him to come chat while they discus terms for their upcoming duel.
The Akodo starts quoting various passages from Kakita's "The Sword", especially after the Crane brags he's a decedent of Kakita. The Akodo gets the Crane to agree that Kakita said that the sword is superior to all other weapons. That Kakita said the true swordsman need fear no other weapon or situation,. That Kakita said the perfect one strike can defeat any foe (Kakita was being metaphorical here, but the duelist agreed to it literally). And that Kakita said that the perfect one strike applies to all situations. THEN the Akodo got the duelist to agree that he, under Kakita's teachings, could defeat any opponent, with any weapon, in any situation, with one perfect strike of his sword (something tells me this player had good social dice). Que the Akodo saying he had a soldier in his army that wanted to prove Kakita wrong with his own favorite weapon, in a situation ideal to his weapon of choice. The arrogant duelist agreed and vowed to it with an Otomo Observer being witness.
Que the duelist fighting a Siege Master on his (fully staffed) ballista from 50 yards away, armed only with his sword. For those wondering, the Crane lost. Later, the Akodo general sent a copy of "The Sword" to the duelist's lord, with a note: "Any quote of an ancestor taken out of context is a weapon in your enemy's hand."
I consider this a tactical victory; not even deceptive. The duelist was monumentally idiotic and arrogant, confident that his superior skill at iaijutsu would give him the edge against any weapon...forgetting the 'weapon' can mean anything in war.

Hah! Amazingly badass!

As a side note: are your lingua mater Portuguese, Fox?

15 hours ago, Silver Crane said:

Well considering that's not even remotely canon, it doesn't really matter. One player's stupidity does not prove that the tactic was honorable.

...cue the Crane salt.

During the First War against Fu Leng, Fu Leng arrived to issue a challenge to Hantei. Hantei allowed Togashi to answer for him. When Fu Leng makes the challenge and asks "What will you choose as your weapon?" Togashi replies "The people of Rokugan"

I can remember reading about that ballista duel by some strange reason. Was it posted on the AEG forum too?

By the way, I would say everything in rokugani warfare is fair game, one should only mind "poor conducts" and "terrible life choices". Waging a guerrilla war on an invading army is OK, as long as it doesn't compromise civilian security. Similarly, burning down Osano-wo's temple if it is your enemies' last hiding place can be a'right, but the big guy might destroy your army with a violent thunderstorm the next day (or not, if he also hated those guys).

Holding back is pretty much an insult (it shows that your opponent doesn't deserve your full compliment of options), crying because your enemy plays "unfair" paints a poor picture about you (if you are an imbecile who can't deal with some unconventional stuff, then you might as well consider not leading an army in the first place), and falling for bullsh*t is supposedly your problem too (just say "NO" when the Kakita Duelist shows up).

11 hours ago, starwarsdrip said:

While this is a cool topic to see. This story of a ballista duel reminds me of Shouting Matsu's post on /TG/ from.... five or six years ago? http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16977503/ It was mostly lion propoganda for the lulz, im suprised one of your players used that in game, good for them!

I do think people examining warfare in Rokugan should think about how honorable combat is not simply restricted to charging at your enemy screaming the names of your ancestors at the top of your lungs, unless of course you're a Matsu. Then its the only option.

I've been looking for that forum; it had some really good tactical advice. Pretty much everything on there is stuff players should read. I showed it to my players, and most of them took it to heart...annoying so. More on some of the tricks they learned from Shouting Matsu-sama's teachings later (seriously though, one of them asked for those posts to be made into a work on war, written by penname 'Screaming Matsu').

3 hours ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

As a side note: are your lingua mater Portuguese, Fox?

Nope, I'm American, and only speak English. Why do you ask, if I may be so bold?

2 hours ago, PhoenixInferno said:

During the First War against Fu Leng, Fu Leng arrived to issue a challenge to Hantei. Hantei allowed Togashi to answer for him. When Fu Leng makes the challenge and asks "What will you choose as your weapon?" Togashi replies "The people of Rokugan"

See! Togashi-no-Kami pulled that trick, too! It's perfectly legal! ...okay, it might still be a crafty trick, but still...Togashi got away with it.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

I can remember reading about that ballista duel by some strange reason. Was it posted on the AEG forum too?

By "Screaming Matsu" on an RPG forum (link found above).

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

By the way, I would say everything in rokugani warfare is fair game, one should only mind "poor conducts" and "terrible life choices".

ALMOST everything is fair game, even though pleanty things will be frowned upon. But there are plenty of things that'll get you hung, like marching on sacrosanct ground.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Similarly, burning down Osano-wo's temple if it is your enemies' last hiding place can be a'right, but the big guy might destroy your army with a violent thunderstorm the next day (or not, if he also hated those guys).

See, this is a BIG no-no, according to the books. Temples of the Brotherhood are outside of clan ownership and are considered sacred ground. Both mean your army has no jurisdiction there. Pretty sure people can seek sanctuary at temples and be safe under Rokugani law, and attacking a temple without express permission from the Emperor is illegal. You might be able to get away with it, but that only means you got lucky.
Par example, during a war between the Scorpion and Lion, the Scorpion made a temple their command center (I can't remember if they kicked the monks out or the monks let them). The Lion commander was a bloodthirsty lunatic with no sense of honor, and ordered an attack on the temple. His Kitsu advisor and Ikoma Second-in-command both balked at the idea, saying it was dishonorable, illigal, blasphemous, and that that's the Scorpion wanted. The commander told them both to get bent, and proceeded with his attack. Que the commander being executed for attacking a brotherhood temple, the Lion army being disgraced and rebuked by the Emperor, and Scorpion getting everything they lost back, and then some.
So no, if you wanna win a war, do NOT burn down a temple...unless you have really, really good reasoning (like it's a bloodspeaker cult, or it's so small no one will notice).

This is the moment where your in-second should cut you down and be ready to accept his own potential execution in exchange for doing the right thing.

38 minutes ago, WHW said:

This is the moment where your in-second should cut you down and be ready to accept his own potential execution in exchange for doing the right thing.

The story gets better. The second-in-command decides his son, the courtier responsible for representing the Lion war in court, was responsible for a lot of the Lion's troubles in the war which led to their failure, became a monk of the temple attacked, and then goaded the Scorpion Clan into a second war the the Lion to avenge the angry ghosts of the temple over the innocent blood split. Sounds like a good kabuki play, right?

On a side note, there was one time when I was playing a Mirumoto duelist when I found out the daimyo was under the spell of a Bloodsword. My group tried reasoning with the daimyo to give up the sword, telling Jade Magistrates about it, and even attempted to steal the sword while the daimyo's slept. After all that failed, my daimyo was goading the clan to war when I finally did the last thing I could think of and challenged them to a duel to the death for control of the Mirumoto family. Luckily, because they were under the influence of a bloodsword, they accepted, and I won. Haha, it was an awesome game.