We're running throug our new RtL campaign, and the battles inside the dungeons and in the open fields of Terrinoth seem to be very epic (expecially since we applied in the dungeons the "Threat-as-Fatigue" house rule...).

But what is stunning me (as OL) is the party: very strong! We're still in copper (six weeks in the game time, so far) and I'm still able to beat some characters for now... but, really, I fear that in the next future they'll kick my ass for good!!

So, they are:

Karnon with Leadership (and two good one-hand melee weapons): he crushes EVERY.SINGLE.TIME.HE.HITS. (do you ever think what does it mean to receive 3 massive attacks from Karnon in the same turn, when he chooses to do a "battle action"?? Well....I really hope you'll never have to meet him with Leadership in your Descent adventures...)

Kel (a "bonus" character with 3 power d. in mage trait, who ignores obstacles for the purpose of the LoS and the shadowcloack ability), with a magic staff that ignores undying (and with "2 surges= + 3 damages"), along with the "Fire Pact" skill.

Shiver, with "Spiritwalker" skill and a very good copper Rune (with "1 surge=Pierce 2"). The most powerful hero in the group, so far: he always stays in the backline, 6 or more squares behind the rest of the party, and with his Aura 4 ability is hardly ever possible to reach him with a good melee monster (ranged attacks against him are very difficult too, 'cause he ofetn hides himself behind the corners). And also the "spawn from the back" is often impossible to do: he covers well the LoS at the back of the group!! The only hope I got against him (as OL) are the traps....

Tobin Farslayer (another "bonus" hero, with 3 power d. in range trait, who adds the number of squares from his target to the damage he deals, whenever he hits) with a skill that increases his speed up to 5 squares (not so great, actually..), but with two notable ranged weapon (one of them is the "falcon's claw", with "web"...).

TheHunterBoy said:

Leadership doesn't allow you to make three attacks in a turn; the "half-actions" all have to be different (see FAQ). You can attack and place a Guard order, which will net you 2 attacks, but the third half-action needs to be a move.

You can use Leadership to place a Guard order on someone else who has already taken a Battle action, which will let that character make a total of 3 attacks in a round...

Two out of 4 promos? Ouch! Those guys are scary, especially Kel. If someone grabs Boggs the Rat you may never spawn again. Well, at least not until they errata Kel to only ignore LOS for attacks, which they'll hopefully do very soon.

Antistone said:

Sorry, you're right...! It isn't Leadership skill but that one that gives 3 attacks if you choose a battle action and spend 2 fatigues (I don't remeber its name...).

BTW....Karnon gained right now (in our last session) also the "Berserker" fight skill...

And, oops., I was forgetting...he destroyed in less than 2 rounds the Demon Orz (the leader of the Rumor n°8, If I remember well...).

Someone out there still really believes that Karnon is not the best tank ever??

TheHunterBoy said:

Yes. Anyone else can get the same skills, Karnon starts with fewer skills than other characters in vanilla, his hero ability has negligible value, and he's squishy for a 4 conquest hero. His only redeeming feature is that he starts with 5 melee trait dice, which is useful, but not so awesome that it makes his flaws irrelevant. In an extended campaign, I understand it can even be a disadvantage, because you can't add silver/gold dice with fatigue after your initial attack roll (due to the 5-power-dice limit).

On a side note, I find it simultaneously amusing and depressing that "a good tank" apparently now means "a powerful melee attacker" instead of "resistant to damage", and thus no longer has even a metaphorical connection to the dictionary definition of "tank."

Incidentally, the skill you're thinking of is probably "Knight."

What Antistone said.
Karnon dies too easily for a 4 conquest hero; especially for a melee one which actually has to get close to the enemy to do something (and thus, is more likely to be targeted with enemy melee attacks). His special ability is highly situational (but very useful when it actually comes into play) and that missing skill could as well be Mighty or Weapon Master - same damage output, but with the possibility to buy extra dice after the attack if you need that one additional point of damage.

Further; Shiver also isn't that great. 12 wounds, no base armor, but a conquest value of 3 - that's easy XP for the Overlord. His primary defensive ability is nearly useless in the advanced campaign due to monster upgrades.

Kel has a powerful ability, but also suffers from the "squishy and 3 conquest" syndrome. Mages die easily due to armor restrictions.

Tobin on the other hand is a really powerful hero. He actually has a "tank profile" - meaning 16 wounds and 2 base armor. Give such a character a Chain Mail and most of the Tier 1 monsters can't touch him anymore. Especially when combined with the Ring of Protection.
But who said that +2 speed is useless on him? Speeding up a slow hero is always good; especially for him since he both needs distance to deal damage and still keep up with the party.

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin

Oh; Edit(h) says that I forgot to mention that Spiritwalker is limited to 5 squares distance in the advanced campaign.

Shiver's ability gets progressive less useful as the campaign adavnces. Your beastmen might not get through in Copper, but as the campaign advances four damage (even eight damage) will not be so much of a bother.

Ok, maybe Karnon is not the best tank in the game (my feeling is he could be, read below...), but his 5 power dice in attack are always a bad new for the monster he hits: his score is always incredibly high.The our campaign's report (so far) says that almost 100% of the monsters attacked by Karnon died. No way: he hits, he destroys. Small Kobolds, quick Spiders, huge Trolls, flying Demons: all of them were massacred in a blood lake! The fact is that Karnon needs 1-2 attacks to clear the way in front of him, and when he declares a battle action (with 3 attacks)...well....you can only say goodbay to your evil minions (the only hope is that he rolls a miss result...).

On the other hand, yes, Karnon risks to die too much times, due his "melee style" to solve the matters, giving to the OL a great amount of Conquest Tokens along the Campaign. But is a calculated risk: 4 conquest tokens to give to the OL are an acceptable cost to pay when you have already cleared from the monsters more than half of the dungeon you are in!

So, what we're finding in our current game experience is that this huge-white guy is very usefull for the party. And, for those who try to explain what a tank in Descent should be, my simple answer is: a tank is a "first-line"character, who easily opens the way through the enemy's lines (even if the cost could be his own life...), giving to his company more chances to reach safely the end of the battlefield.

Other considerations. The first one is for Shiver. In our campaign, so far, he never died! Never! The reason of this is, probably, the presence of his "Spiritwalker" skill. Thus, please, don't tell me that this guy is weak, not in this specific case! He stays far from the centre of the fury, and he can deal damage as well he was face to face with the enemy he hits. Maybe he could be an easy target to toast if it was possible to reach him with the attacks. But it's often (or always) impossible to do so. Thus, no: he's all but weak!!

A last talk on Tobin. Yes, he is a great character. Maybe the most powerful, due his base ability. In our campaign, after Shiver, he is the hero who died less times (I think only one time at all).

Conclusion: Karnon hits, destroys...and (yes) dies. At that point the other ones complete easily the work of Karnon. And stay (better) alive.

A great great party, men....

It sounds like it's definitely Spiritwalker being the powerhouse in this instance, not Shiver. This should become more noticeable over time as his aura ability becomes less useful.

James McMurray said:

It sounds like Spiritwalker + Shiver's Aura 4 = amazing character!

Perhaps for now, but the aura will soon become a mildly painful speed bump instead of a wall. Assuming the overlord invests in humanoids of course. Once they can survive the 4 damage it'll no longer protect him, since most melee monsters get one attack and then die anyway.

Antistone said:

But you can still upgrade your dice using fatigue prior to rolling.

RhunDraco said:

Which is inferior, because you don't have as much information when you choose to upgrade them. Buying more dice after the roll is awesome because you know how much more damage you need to land a kill; buying before the roll is much more of a crapshoot.

Antistone said:

Indeed. Having the fifth dice saves you one fatigue on the rare occasion that you score exactly what is needed to kill the target. But saving that one fatigue costs you the opportunities to kill when you are 2 or 3 wounds, or 1-3 surges, short of what you need. In other words you gain a small, rare advantage for a large, more common disadvantage.

Corbon said:

Wathever you could think about Karnon and his starting five dice on melee attack, all that I can tell it's that in our current campaign this character continues to smash down EVERYTHING he meets on his way. Expecially now, with the second skill he got: Berserker!

Well, I think the real matter on Karnon is not the number of blak/silver/golden dice he can roll during a melee attack, since at the present moment of the campaign (last week on copper) he deals an huge amount of wounds just rolling the five blacks (even 15-20 per single attack, or even more if he is wounded, thanks to Berserker...). No: actually, the matter is that Karnon dies too much times...

Is there a door to open leading to a new area? Karnon is there, in the first line!

Is there the Giant watching on the treasure chest? Karnon goes there to kick that ass and to break the Giant's club on his own head (and you can stay quite sure that he really does it..)!

Is there the roaring Dragon just in front of the rune-locked door? No problem for Karnon: with his 2 or 3 massive attacks that monster is k.o....

To carry out all these heroic actions, nevertheless, makes Karnon's life an endless "come-and-go" from and to the city temple. And gives a great amount of CT to the OL, of course...

So, it depends on which side you consider the issue: would you prefer a powerful character who kills EVERYONE he attacks and dies 3-4 times more frequently than the other ones in the party or do you think it would be better a character less powerful but more resistant?

Antistone said:

Honestly, I hadn't thought of that; thx for the schooling. Best to get an Aim order from someone with Leadership, then, if possible.

TheHunterBoy said:

Well, then, the OL needs to be trapping the snot out of Karnon, thus potentially removing him as a threat. This is what I've been doing in the RtL game I've been OLing. Karnon certainly does kill stuff, but only if he can reach it.