To be fair, at the start of my L5R adventure I thought that Lion were supposed to basically be the Imperial Army and do all the stuff like squashing rebellions, chasing off bandits, enforcing the law and so on. That made a lot of sense to my tiny mind back then..

Decapitation and other stuff was also much more obvious back then, because Shadowlands and zombies and stuff worked little differently than they do now. I frankly don't remember if there was even a concept of Taint in the 1st Edition, or was it just an evil power of the Shadowlands themselves that made everything work wrong within their borders. Hm.

28 minutes ago, Fumi said:

Though this could solve the problem, it would also make the Lion appear to be a bunch of muggers shaking down the other clans for pocket change. I don't know how many people would be willing to play them if they were portrayed like that, especially since it would make all their talk about honor look like hypocrisy.

You could describe them as muggers, but remember that many people today subscribe to the narrative that any taxation is theft. Extraction by force is essentially a form of taxation in a feudal society where warlords rule the territories as they do in Rokugan.

The proper description I would give it in game is "The Lion took charge of management of these territories through the harvest season, ensuring all proper taxes were collected in the Emperor's name. Control of the territory has been relegated back to the Unicorn so they may ensure civil conduct is maintained through the winter." They could even send a bill to the Unicorn for their temporary services to extract further tribute.

The Lion clan have an open disdain for nearly all other clans - it isn't hard to spin any offensive into "we considered that we could manage this property better in the Emperor's name..." The only clan the Lion really respect are the Crab, so everyone else would be free game from that perspective.

The Crab are the only clan that out does the Lion in disdain, and that is likely because the Lion do respect the Crab for their combat prowess, while the Crab have a wall that could use a few more skilled soldiers... if the Lion soldiers consider themselves skilled...

On 6/24/2017 at 0:33 PM, Kinzen said:

in a society where you're supposed to burn the dead and avoid blood, it's hard to wrap your mind around how a guy can be carrying a severed head with him and that doesn't raise any suspicions. Not saying that couldn't happen -- it absolutely could, because societies are inconsistent that way -- but I think that for players, it creates enough cognitive dissonance that people tend to leave out the whole heads-as-trophies idea.

I think it's more commonly an issue of looking at things from a modern perspective. Assuming that Rokugani samurai say 'eww' where we would say 'eww', and for the same reasons. I know a few groups that would prefer to gloss over anything to do with blood in the average bandit or ronin fight, and walk away from the aftermath as though they were in a dungeon, no matter whether it's a bandit camp, imperial road, or village. Bringing Rokugani customs into that can be jarring for them.

Suspicions ... when you walk into the town square, raise your bundle of heads high, and proceed to brag about how you defeated the local bandits, (or have them cleaned and prepared for your lord's confirmation) I don't think there will be suspicions. Everyone will know what you did, and though your testimony is "enough", there will be zero uncertainty when they speak of your actions. Head bags and such are something they understand. Now, if you *cradle* a severed head as you walk into town, that's another matter. Peasants and samurai alike will fall back on fear, superstition, and suspicion when they don't know what to make of that.

Meta knowledge of maho seems to have leeched into common or expected behaviour, too. If you go back to first edition, there are even examples where samurai hesitate when the blood sorcerer starts cutting themselves, unsure of what to do. A human response from the Bushido-coded machine we expect.

Come to think of it, it could be properly explained how bushi, shugenja, and courtiers will approach and respond to such things, as well as how being a country samurai (goshi) or city samurai (saigo) affects that.

29 minutes ago, WHW said:

Thisi sn't even only a pre-modern problem. This is basically one of biggest reasons why PRC was so inefficient during it baby years under Mao - information that reached the top was very distorted and everyone tried to look like they perform at "110% of the norm", so to speak. This lead to...problems.

This was a problem in WWII-era Japan as well. Just as one example, the Navy often considered it too embarrassing to report the extent of their losses. So Japanese high command would often unknowingly make battle plans for ships that didn't even exist anymore. Given the huge social pressure on saving face in Rokugan, it would make a lot of sense for that kind of thing to happen there, too.

25 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

That's why the Lion would work so much better (narratively) if they fought an external enemy, like the Crab do, or internal enemies that everyone agrees deserve it. When they're fighting their own fellow Rokugani over selfish concerns, it's harder to cheer them on.

Agreed. Though the "everyone agrees deserve it" part could be tricky.

I just had this idea and I've given it almost zero thought, but what if there was a violent political philosophy that would flare up among the peasants and/or ji-samurai from time to time, and it was the Lion's job to stomp that down whenever it happened? If the philosophy included something extreme like "death to all samurai" as one of its major points, I think most players would agree that they deserve it. It would also naturally follow from Akodo's first job: expelling the people who refused to swear fealty to the Kami.

Our GM basically did something like that by introducing a yellow turban rebellion-inspired uprising in the Phoenix lands, which was contained by uninvited and brutally efficient Lion.

20 minutes ago, shosuko said:

You could describe them as muggers, but remember that many people today subscribe to the narrative that any taxation is theft. Extraction by force is essentially a form of taxation in a feudal society where warlords rule the territories as they do in Rokugan.

The proper description I would give it in game is "The Lion took charge of management of these territories through the harvest season, ensuring all proper taxes were collected in the Emperor's name. Control of the territory has been relegated back to the Unicorn so they may ensure civil conduct is maintained through the winter." They could even send a bill to the Unicorn for their temporary services to extract further tribute.

The Lion clan have an open disdain for nearly all other clans - it isn't hard to spin any offensive into "we considered that we could manage this property better in the Emperor's name..." The only clan the Lion really respect are the Crab, so everyone else would be free game from that perspective.

Taxation is an exchange. It's a forced one, but the government at least theoretically does things that benefit you with that money. Roads, police, court systems, etc.

The Lion doing it to other clans would just be thuggery, since the other clans see no benefit from it at all. And adding in disdain for their victims would just make the Lion even more unsympathetic.

As a real life example, the Mafia may call it "protection money" instead of "extortion racket", but that doesn't mean they're just as sympathetic as their victims. Nobody is fooled by that, and they wouldn't be in the game, either.

You could argue that protection rackets ran by organized crime are forms of taxation and might even be considered to be alternative and competition to the government, so I can see where this comparison to Lion "thuggery" comes from.

1 minute ago, WHW said:

You could argue that protection rackets ran by organized crime are forms of taxation and might even be considered to be alternative and competition to the government, so I can see where this comparison to Lion "thuggery" comes from.

It depends on the gang in question, but the only ones I could see as remotely government-like are the ones that take responsibility for actually protecting the businesses that pay out. But as far as I can tell, shosuko wasn't suggesting that the Lion actually protect the other clans, just extort money from them.

But even if the clans that paid out were actually protected by the Lion (from what?), it would open up new problems. Because I don't think the other clans' players would like the Lion being a sort of quasi-government over the other clans.

1 hour ago, Fumi said:

Though this could solve the problem, it would also make the Lion appear to be a bunch of muggers shaking down the other clans for pocket change. I don't know how many people would be willing to play them if they were portrayed like that, especially since it would make all their talk about honor look like hypocrisy.

A bunch of muggers is harsh. I think as long as it is emphasized that the Lion's REASONS for fighting are always honorable, I don't think that they come across as muggers. Spoils, ransom, and tribute are the appropriate rewards of victory, to insinuate that they are the causes of war, however.... is the sort of thing that will get the Lion to go to war with you. Because it was insulting and untrue. After all, the Lion would still go to war even if they got none of those things.

I think, narratively, part of the issue with Lion can be handled just by more sympathetic handling of their viewpoint. They play by the rules, they enforce the rules, they win by the rules. They show, over and over, that they are the best. yeah, they fight wars a lot: but that's because they don't let things slide. And they are courteous and compassionate to their defeated opponents, just like good samurai should be. They are the types, who for example, DON'T ravage their opponent's fields when they invade their lands: they don't need to. They don't need to fight a war of attrition: they win decisive battles. They don't despoil peasants of their livelihood to feed their armies: they use their mastery of logistics to feed themselves. Everything is done correctly, and none of the other clans can keep up in a fair fight, so they use tricks and lies and hide behind walls and try everything, and that's ok, because otherwise it wouldn't even be a challenge. And they don't need to be expansionistic, because that isn't why they fight wars anyway: they fight wars to win glory and impress their ancestors. So they are eager to fight, but generous in victory. And in so doing, they keep the other clans strong too.

Hey, I should be an Ikoma.

55 minutes ago, Fumi said:

Taxation is an exchange. It's a forced one, but the government at least theoretically does things that benefit you with that money. Roads, police, court systems, etc.

The Lion doing it to other clans would just be thuggery, since the other clans see no benefit from it at all. And adding in disdain for their victims would just make the Lion even more unsympathetic.

As a real life example, the Mafia may call it "protection money" instead of "extortion racket", but that doesn't mean they're just as sympathetic as their victims. Nobody is fooled by that, and they wouldn't be in the game, either.

Rokugan is a feudal society. People vie for control of land constantly, especially at harvest time. I'm not saying only the Lion do this, it's likely every clan does this. It's part of how a feudal society works. You don't need to be a villain to mount an offensive. I think you are imposing our modern views of ownership and taxation in a society that hasn't developed that far. Note that both the ccg and lcg are direct military and political contests of clan vs clan. The game encompasses ruthless warfare. What good are the Utaku steeds if the Unicorn don't use them either? It is a constant back and forth. The edict of "peace" by the Emperor is little more than a rule of never taking land from your opponents. Certainly no one is looking to eradicate any clan, or take their whole territory, but that doesn't mean some land doesn't change hands, or become peacefully ransomed. From the Lion to the Unicorn and back again depending on who wins.

The land within a castles walls is truly owned by the one who controls the castle, and those are harder to take. The land behind the castles is much more difficult to attack, but in front of those walls, all of the peasant villages pay taxation to whichever lord shows up for it. There is no promise of roads or education, this isn't modern living - the promise is that you can live on your land, pray in your temple, and by paying taxes to this lord no other lord will kill you for not paying them taxes. The taxes are used to create infrastructure as far as fortresses, garrisons, and trade routes are concerned - it's not completely selfish - but it is a feudal society run by warlords.

If you must have some "holy crusade" where the Lion and Unicorn play together and battle is a no-no between the great clans without some scripted villainy then you could throw nameless bandits in the mix. It would be pretty bland when you have fierce political warfare and debate and duels to the death over who said what to who, and then wash your hands of anyone waging an actual battle...

37 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

A bunch of muggers is harsh. I think as long as it is emphasized that the Lion's REASONS for fighting are always honorable, I don't think that they come across as muggers. Spoils, ransom, and tribute are the appropriate rewards of victory, to insinuate that they are the causes of war, however.... is the sort of thing that will get the Lion to go to war with you. Because it was insulting and untrue. After all, the Lion would still go to war even if they got none of those things.

That could work if it were portrayed well, and I know it's a pretty major distinction to the Lion themselves... but to a modern point of view, the difference between warring for loot, and warring for other reasons and incidentally getting loot, can be really subtle and open to interpretation. Are the Lion really attacking the Crane because of honor, or was the honor just an excuse to get their hands on those Crane riches?

Though I wouldn't have a problem with the Lion being portrayed in that kind of ambiguous, morally gray light, as long as their opponents are also portrayed in a similar way.

38 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I think, narratively, part of the issue with Lion can be handled just by more sympathetic handling of their viewpoint.

I agree.

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Rokugan is a feudal society. People vie for control of land constantly, especially at harvest time. I'm not saying only the Lion do this, it's likely every clan does this. It's part of how a feudal society works. You don't need to be a villain to mount an offensive. I think you are imposing our modern views of ownership and taxation in a society that hasn't developed that far.

My argument is that the Lion would be made unsympathetic to new players. Modern views are very much relevant to that discussion.

6 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The land within a castles walls is truly owned by the one who controls the castle, and those are harder to take. The land behind the castles is much more difficult to attack, but in front of those walls, all of the peasant villages pay taxation to whichever lord shows up for it. There is no promise of roads or education, this isn't modern living - the promise is that you can live on your land, pray in your temple, and by paying taxes to this lord no other lord will kill you for not paying them taxes. The taxes are used to create infrastructure as far as fortresses, garrisons, and trade routes are concerned - it's not completely selfish - but it is a feudal society run by warlords.

Their lords' only service isn't refraining from killing them. They also, in theory, protect them from other feudal lords, as well as from crime, and build the infrastructure you mentioned. The Lion would do none of those things for their victims.

9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

If you must have some "holy crusade" where the Lion and Unicorn play together and battle is a no-no between the great clans without some scripted villainy then you could throw nameless bandits in the mix. It would be pretty bland when you have fierce political warfare and debate and duels to the death over who said what to who, and then wash your hands of anyone waging an actual battle...

Don't twist my position around, please. That's not what I'm arguing for. I'm just saying that going to war for the sole purpose of pillage and reparations is not at all sympathetic to a modern audience. And the Lion need to appeal to a modern audience.

What does ANY clan have an army for? This isn't a reason to fight unique to the Lion. Every clan is a feudal state controlled by a warlord.

If you tell the story as "The Lion went to war to steal grain" then sure it's going to sound bad, but why are you telling it that way? I only said it that way because the original question is "why would the lion go to war?" Or rather more specifically "Why are the Lion allegedly at war yet they aren't expansionist"

The answer is they go to war and don't keep the land, but rather collect a tax or tribute. All of the clans probably do this, partly because peasants aren't really high enough in the karmic food chain to have claim to any clan, and partly because it is a feudal society where warlords preside - they gained their power through war, and keep their power through war. The politics stems only from having alliances. What difference does it matter to the Emperor if the Crane or the Lion deliver the tax from Toshi Ranbo? It didn't matter when the Crane went to war against the Lion to take that city-fort to begin with, and our first Lion clan story was about the Lion trying to take it back - the point of that fort was to secure harvest / tax from the fields surrounding it.

I'm only using those words to illustrate the point of it all - Toshi Ranbo allows you to keep a garrison near the fields to ward off other lords who would tax them. In turn, the owner of Toshi Ranbo takes the tax from them instead. The fields surrounding Toshi Ranbo aren't inside their walls and are vulnerable to attack, the garrison just lets that lord have more control of the area to ensure they collect it. Any lord could march an army to the plains to vie for power over them, they just have to deal with the garrison as Arasou did.

If fighting for pillage is something everyone does, then I guess my concerns about the Lion in particular being portrayed unsympathetically would evaporate. Though I do have my doubts about how well that would fit with the setting as it's usually depicted.

On 6/13/2017 at 7:38 AM, Zetsubou said:

I'll be the first to say I'm not much of a Lion sympathizer. Nevertheless, I think there's a tendency towards exacerbating the flaws shown of our characters thus far. Sure, Matsu Tsuko comes off as bloodthirsty, hot-headed, disrespectful, violence-prone, and many other nasty words, but she's also shown as loyal, courageous, determined. Toturi clearly is thoughtful, clever, visionary in his ability to see past the present and identify future consequences of his actions, even if these qualities also slow down his decision making process and prevent him from outwardly explaining what he's thinking to others. I find it odd that folks are complaining about a lack of arc in 9-10 pages, but can't see what (to me anyways) is clearly the groundwork for a strong character arc in each we've been shown so far. If, that is, FFG takes advantage of the character infrastructure they've created.

Replying to a few posts in succession here because I think the "Price of War" is being underrated as a story.

O5R players may remember this, but the delay in Toturi's decision making was a flaw then and now:

Page 74, Way of the Wolf (Shotai's Character Write Up):

"The only flaw he noticed in Toturi's character was his tendency to over-analyze a situation, causing him to hesitate at inopportune times".

This is a part of his make-up, but it was never amplified in O5R fiction. Instead, he came across as a wooden/flat protagonist that bordered on being a plot device. I much prefer this Toturi. This one comes across as layered and relatable.

On 6/22/2017 at 0:31 AM, BordOne said:

It is not about Toturis portrayal. I think it was actually quite good, sets him up as a character that will grow over time and it will be pleasurable to watch him become more and more experienced and powerful.

However this story doesn't convey what the Lion is actually good at. From the Crane clan fiction we get clear message: they are perfectionists, loving beauty and artistry, also fearsome duelists.

From Lion fiction we were supposed to get that they are great strategists and have powerful army. What did we get? Their *** getting kicked by a bunch of haiku writers and their champion getting n0scoped like a pig

Toturi can mature, but I hope he retains his flaws. I hope he makes mistakes, follows his heart at times, is reactionary sometimes... it will only serve to highlight the brilliance he displays in battle via contrast. It will make his character whole.

I think this fiction directly displays what a good tactician can do: Toturi let the Crane move past his position in order to pull Arasou back -- All to embolden the garrison to fully commit to a trap he laid for them. Very impressive. Further, this was a win for the Lion because they forced the Crane army to retreat. This is a key point that needs to be re-iterated.

On 6/22/2017 at 11:43 AM, Kinzen said:

This gets back to a discussion a few months ago -- I can't remember which thread, or I'd dig it out -- about the contradictions inherent in having a reasonably strong central power (the imperial families) and an isolationist country and frequent internal warfare. ... But the setup means the Lion somehow need to be militarily awesome, without ever being able to truly conquer their enemies -- they can only ever inflict temporary, small-scale defeats.

Or, they conquer their enemies, but cannot hold the newly annexed lands (I believe you have mentioned economics). Pitched battle would only be one aspect of conquering and retaining land. If it was the dominant factor, Hannibal Barcha would have been crowned Ceasar... In O5R, the Lion were considered relatively poor due to the amount of money they spent in merely maintaining their armies. 3G stronghold FTW. Anything from a two-front war, clear losses in politics, economic warfare, Imperial involvement via it's own militia and/or mercenaries would all serve to weaken the Lion's foothold in enemy territory... To the point that it becomes too costly to hold said territory.

That said, I wouldn't mind a story arc where the Lion do in fact annex lands for the foreseeable future. It need not be _all_ of the losing clan's land, just enough to show that there is a cost to losing pitched battles beyond the men and supplies.

I think Shosuko is overstating the arbitrary and violent nature of tax-collection here. The Feudal aristicracy know intimately who owns what and who is supposed to get taxes from where, and so do the peasants. In wartime, goods will be extorted or requisitioned from the locals, but everyone knows the difference. What a peasant owes, what a village owes: these will often be traditional and in Europe we're often weirdly specific, like 8 white horses, a pair of silver spurs, and 30 wheels of yellow cheese.

But it's absolutely right that in more unsettled times, if some upstart bushi came around saying he's the new lord and they better pay up, that's probably what happens.

In both Europe and Japan, by the way, the building of castles was mostly a means by which warriors who extorted the peasants developed a safe position for themselves to institutionalize their local authority. It's not much of a stretch to say the difference between a bandit and a knight is that a knight has a castle. From what I gather, also, Daimyo basically meant 'big man' and it originally referred to people who didn't have their position through hereditary right but who had established themselves with a castle and made people obey them.

3 hours ago, Anemura said:

I think this fiction directly displays what a good tactician can do: Toturi let the Crane move past his position in order to pull Arasou back -- All to embolden the garrison to fully commit to a trap he laid for them. Impressive. Further, this was a win for the Lion because they forced the Crane army to retreat. This is a key point that need to be re-iterated.

I don't think failing to occupy the city and banishing the defender and getting the Lion Champion killed can be considered a clan win..but i'm no Lion.

And oh, for those complaining Hotaru was very inexperience in the first fiction, I wonder how many xp is a Lion champion worth? And that touch of tear of sorrow from her as he double tap his friend's brother..i think its genuine..she felt sorrow and regret that Satsume, his father could not see how she easily murderkill Arasou

7 hours ago, Fumi said:

If fighting for pillage is something everyone does, then I guess my concerns about the Lion in particular being portrayed unsympathetically would evaporate. Though I do have my doubts about how well that would fit with the setting as it's usually depicted.

Well remember that what is done, and what is said are two different things. Whenever people talk about how they duel for honor, there is a lot of good that comes from killing a powerful general, politician, or merchant just by killing them, honor or not. Being able to lure the right people into duels to the death is part of the politics of the Crane, and likely the Phoenix as well.. The best way to describe this is simply that the Lion fight for honor. They would likely say they are rewarded by the other clans for their valor and skill. They serve as the Emperor's army so they can easily stretch it to state that they are there to ensure tax collection runs smoothly for the Emperor, even in Unicorn lands. When the pretty words are used it becomes the standard L5R story, I only used the dirty words here because the conversation was asking for the real reason.

3 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I think Shosuko is overstating the arbitrary and violent nature of tax-collection here. The Feudal aristicracy know intimately who owns what and who is supposed to get taxes from where, and so do the peasants. In wartime, goods will be extorted or requisitioned from the locals, but everyone knows the difference. What a peasant owes, what a village owes: these will often be traditional and in Europe we're often weirdly specific, like 8 white horses, a pair of silver spurs, and 30 wheels of yellow cheese.

But it's absolutely right that in more unsettled times, if some upstart bushi came around saying he's the new lord and they better pay up, that's probably what happens.

In both Europe and Japan, by the way, the building of castles was mostly a means by which warriors who extorted the peasants developed a safe position for themselves to institutionalize their local authority. It's not much of a stretch to say the difference between a bandit and a knight is that a knight has a castle. From what I gather, also, Daimyo basically meant 'big man' and it originally referred to people who didn't have their position through hereditary right but who had established themselves with a castle and made people obey them.

I am certainly stating things more aggressively and dirty than any normal story would depict, but the question was "Why do the Lion go to war?" There is evidence that they don't take territory from the other clans much, and "for honor" wasn't good enough. We imagine Rokugan as a society the way we see society today - but between each clan border there are likely amounts of land that neither clan can properly claim, as it gets increasingly difficult to build fortifications near a rival clan. Being under siege is tough, being under siege while trying to build a lasting fortification is worse - further if you build a city-fort and you lose it, then your opponent could take it and use your work to take more from you as happened with Toshi Ranbo. Every year this grey area between the clans needs to be taxed like any other farm land and I imagine all of the clans have something to say about who controls each village every year.

16 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

The major drawback to this take is the various centralised institutions that have been presented as powerful in the setting, mainly the Emerald magistrates. But the magistrates, at least, aren't really tools for exerting political control, so I think they work ok with this conception. We could also imagine that under active, intelligent and practical emperors, things are different, but people being what they are, weak rulers are at least as common as strong.

The Emerald Champion runs the Emerald Magistrates, and that Champion comes from a clan. It's almost like a political marriage situation where the influences of both parties are considered. I'm sure that when a Unicorn Emerald Champion is in power the Unicorn feel more at ease then when a Lion is the Emerald Champion. There is also the issue that much of the Emerald Magistrates are made up of Lion, so even when other clans are in charge there is the conflicting loyalty to the Emperor or the Clan.

imo - it makes for a great setting for rpg! I think conflicting allegiances are my favorite thing in L5R. It gives a lot of grey area where players can wonder if they are doing what is right or wrong. The Emerald Magistrates are also a great excuse to have members from various clans playing together, and mixing in Rokugan life on any level.

"Emerald Magistrates Campaign Guide" would be a great way to start the new RPG line in a vein similar to various FFG Star Wars Campaign Guides.

25 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The Emerald Champion runs the Emerald Magistrates, and that Champion comes from a clan. It's almost like a political marriage situation where the influences of both parties are considered. I'm sure that when a Unicorn Emerald Champion is in power the Unicorn feel more at ease then when a Lion is the Emerald Champion. There is also the issue that much of the Emerald Magistrates are made up of Lion, so even when other clans are in charge there is the conflicting loyalty to the Emperor or the Clan.

imo - it makes for a great setting for rpg! I think conflicting allegiances are my favorite thing in L5R. It gives a lot of grey area where players can wonder if they are doing what is right or wrong. The Emerald Magistrates are also a great excuse to have members from various clans playing together, and mixing in Rokugan life on any level.

Given Bushido, I think you may be overstating the loyalty conflict.

The emperor sits at the top of the pyramid with EC as #2.

As the EM's serve the EC as vassals, and he sits above the Clan Champions. It would be violation of Chugo to put clan needs above what EC commands and the magistrates 'standard' duties.

I'm not saying there is never conflict, I think you might be overstating its occurance

Loyalty is but one of tenets. Sometimes it comes in conflict with things like Compassion and Courage. Good Meyo helps you pick what is the optimal solution to the conflicting demands of Bushido, and often it's "kill everyone included, compose a great poem and suicide on top of their bodies arranged to be a beatiful meat flower ikebana".

Honor isn't a binary guide that always leads you to a single viable solution. You need to evaluate what is important and what is...not non important, but less important. That's why you can have different "honorable solutions" to problems presented by different characters.

And thus, you can have drama when they collide, even if everyone have the best of intentions.

12 minutes ago, WHW said:

Loyalty is but one of tenets. Sometimes it comes in conflict with things like Compassion and Courage. Good Meyo helps you pick what is the optimal solution to the conflicting demands of Bushido, and often it's "kill everyone included, compose a great poem and suicide on top of their bodies arranged to be a beatiful meat flower ikebana".

Honor isn't a binary guide that always leads you to a single viable solution. You need to evaluate what is important and what is...not non important, but less important. That's why you can have different "honorable solutions" to problems presented by different characters.

And thus, you can have drama when they collide, even if everyone have the best of intentions.

yes.....but

A failure of Compassion probably wont get you killed.

A Failure of Duty most likely WILL get you dead or made ronin.

So drama and conflict aside, Average Ichiro understands the nature of the life he lives, and price for putting for putting other 'virtues' above Duty or Honor

just my opinion

A failure of duty might piss off your lord, but your lord has his superiors, and his superiors might decide that your decision was more honorable than your lords and praise your actions. You know, stuff like "Why you murdered your lord and presented yourself to me, samurai sama?" "Well, my story is this, Magistrate-sama" (10 sessions later of retrospection) "Ah, I see now, Samurai-sama, your actions were just, no need to cut yourself."

What made the magistrate so impressed with the murdersamurai? Dunno, maybe murdersamurai figured out his lord was a mahoman and killed everyone to save the empire. Or his lord was driving peasants crazy to the point where it was kill the lord or suffer a massive peasant uprising that would cost the empire more than a life of a cruel and honestly dumb and greedy local big man. Or maybe he was possessed by a demon. Or he was planning to betray. Or...

And so on. This actually plugs in into the Lion fiction, I think - if Toturi decided to punish Tsuko for her behavior, there was probably a whole legion of Matsu who would cry foul play and support her instead of him. You know the trope where a greedy lord has a very honorable yojimbo who spends the story tormented by having to follow a rotten man and after seeing true honor in actions of the protagonists, defies the lords final order by cutting him down? Yeah, this kind of stuff.

EDIT

I don't remember if Rokugani judges and magistrates follow a strict code of law in the today sense of it or if they do the older "law by man" method where it's less about the "if X, then Y" and more of a putting a moral and educated person in a spot where they judge individual situations and lay judgement based on their moral superiority and knowledge.

10 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

yes.....but

A failure of Compassion probably wont get you killed.

A Failure of Duty most likely WILL get you dead or made ronin.

So drama and conflict aside, Average Ichiro understands the nature of the life he lives, and price for putting for putting other 'virtues' above Duty or Honor

just my opinion

But let's say I'm an Emerald Magistrate and I am the deciding voice over charges against a samurai from my clan. Do I side with this samurai because they are part of my clan? Likewise if I am the deciding voice in charges against a samurai from a clan that is an enemy to my clan, do I side against them? If the other Emerald Magistrates are divided it's not like I'm deviating from my duties, but my decision could certainly be colored by these factors.

While Loyalty is a high virtue I think it's also important to realize that everyone isn't a holy knight. There are many lies in courts and temples about the virtues and how best to act on them. History is full of embellishments, virtues ascribed to fit the narrative whether they were real or not.

Sure, the Emperor is #1 but that is a distant power with no direct lines of communication to me. My direct lord is who I would receive orders from and the will of those superior to my lord would be understood through my lord's descriptions and orders. Is my loyalty really to the Emperor #1? Or is it to my direct commander #1, and I simply trust their loyalty to the Emperor?

What if my commander ordered me to join the Emerald Magistrates to track down an ill-serving magistrate that has wronged him. Am I now supposed to be most loyal to the Emerald Champion just because I've joined the ranks? Or would my true nature be to server my commanding lord who sent me there?

Ultimately it's your story in your RPG - but these things are very common in my RPG because I find them interesting... Little wonder why I play Scorpion...

Perfectly, you would be true to your Meyo which would dictate that you are true to your superior who is true to his Meyo which dictates that he is true to his lord who...and so on.

In a perfect situation, it should be a self-correcting chain where someone straying from the honorable path is fixed by someone from above, and in more brutal cases, by someone from below who assumes it's better to do and ask for forgiveness than to let evil take root. That's why in my proposed situation, a honorable retainer kills dishonorable superior and then surrenders themselves to a magistrate (who isn't exactly a superior, but has the moral and societal authority to judge and absolve or punish as they find fit) leaving their fate in magistrate's hands.

You can aruge this shouldn't work in a gritty and "everyone is corrupt" setting, but I think it's very in place for a Rokugan, which is painted in more pure colors and assumes that honorable people do actually exist, and corruption isn't exactly guaranteed to be found in every public official.