Speak as a Dragon player I would like Satsu to live this time around and if the day of thunder happens I would like to see mitsu be the Dragon clan thunder and have him fulfill his destiny..... ( which is to become the new vessel for his kami)

3 hours ago, Willisbatman said:

The idea of her becoming the guardian of the heavens is not a awful idea I feel it lacked something in it's execution ( it also left a romance option with the void Dragon on the table which could have been cool ) I liked the idea that no matter how dark the soul of a lion became it could never be corrupted which is why I want them to walk a dark path this time around

It would be a change over having the phoenix fill that role. If the new story lasts, im sure the Lion will get their chance at 'magical stupidity'

I'm quite surprised from the heat this short fic took, especially as it seems that a lot of the grievancies come from the old lore, and not the new one (that should be the focus now, as these short novels are the only canon lore of the L5R as per today)

Nowhere in the text it's stated that Toturi is a genious, or a master tactician/strategist. It's actually depicted as an indecisive leader, with clear knowledge and understanding of war but poor power/strenght in leading men. He clearly thinks too much and acts "by the book", wanting to assess every single possible path before taking any decision, and failing twice in doing so due to the amount of options in front of him. He's the champion only thanks to succession laws, and he does not even seem to want the position at all.

I can understand why Lion players may ot love their flawed champion (but Hotaru seems far from perfect too), but I think it makes for an interesting character and development (or failure) story.

7 minutes ago, franzvong said:

I'm quite surprised from the heat this short fic took, especially as it seems that a lot of the grievancies come from the old lore, and not the new one (that should be the focus now, as these short novels are the only canon lore of the L5R as per today)

Nowhere in the text it's stated that Toturi is a genious, or a master tactician/strategist. It's actually depicted as an indecisive leader, with clear knowledge and understanding of war but poor power/strenght in leading men. He clearly thinks too much and acts "by the book", wanting to assess every single possible path before taking any decision, and failing twice in doing so due to the amount of options in front of him. He's the champion only thanks to succession laws, and he does not even seem to want the position at all.

I can understand why Lion players may ot love their flawed champion (but Hotaru seems far from perfect too), but I think it makes for an interesting character and development (or failure) story.

Toturi isn't mentioned as a master tactician or strategist in the fiction, but at the very end he is described as "the Brilliant". Additionally, in the original preview article FFG says this:

Quote

No army can withstand the ferocity and tenacity of the Lion’s warriors or the stratagems of the clan’s brilliant new general, Akodo Toturi.

Obviously Toturi is supposed to be some sort of master tactician, but the fiction did a poor job of conveying that it seems.

Well, he may be brilliant, does not make him a good leader or general. As said, he's clearly smart and depicted as such in the novel, but to a flaw: too much thinking and overthinking. To me, it makes for an interesting character to follow

2 hours ago, franzvong said:

Well, he may be brilliant, does not make him a good leader or general. As said, he's clearly smart and depicted as such in the novel, but to a flaw: too much thinking and overthinking. To me, it makes for an interesting character to follow

It is not about Toturis portrayal. I think it was actually quite good, sets him up as a character that will grow over time and it will be pleasurable to watch him become more and more experienced and powerful.

However this story doesn't convey what the Lion is actually good at. From the Crane clan fiction we get clear message: they are perfectionists, loving beauty and artistry, also fearsome duelists.

From Lion fiction we were supposed to get that they are great strategists and have powerful army. What did we get? Their *** getting kicked by a bunch of haiku writers and their champion getting n0scoped like a pig

40 minutes ago, BordOne said:

However this story doesn't convey what the Lion is actually good at. From the Crane clan fiction we get clear message: they are perfectionists, loving beauty and artistry, also fearsome duelists

I get your point, but I'm not sure any of the stories really convey the "best" side of the clans. Not that this is their purpose.

Crane seems to be perfectionist in the small and meaningless details (hikebana, fashion) but their champion is rather sloppy with her main plan (Hotaru trying to be cunny and all and failing miserably). Other than that, they seem to fear the Lion military might, they are anxious with Scorpion's position at court, and their economy is so bad that they lack resources to support Dragon or Crab even with basic stuff. Not really a mighty clan, so far. Even the duel part, Hotaru being wounded by a random ronin does not really strike me as "fearsome".

Lion are aggressive, militaristic, but too confident in their numbers and might. They win the battle and stop the Crane attack aimed at destroying their siege machines, they kill a lot of them with the pinch manouvre, and then overcommit and get punished.

Dragon seems to have much more problems than answers, it's a clan depicted as in decline and in need of support from allies to survive.

Again, none of them are depicted in their strenghts, more in their weaknesses I feel. And I like it, because it makes for a good and interesting setting for the future instead of the bland "clan x is great at this, y at that" of the general description.

1 hour ago, franzvong said:

I get your point, but I'm not sure any of the stories really convey the "best" side of the clans. Not that this is their purpose.

Crane seems to be perfectionist in the small and meaningless details (hikebana, fashion) but their champion is rather sloppy with her main plan (Hotaru trying to be cunny and all and failing miserably). Other than that, they seem to fear the Lion military might, they are anxious with Scorpion's position at court, and their economy is so bad that they lack resources to support Dragon or Crab even with basic stuff. Not really a mighty clan, so far. Even the duel part, Hotaru being wounded by a random ronin does not really strike me as "fearsome".

Lion are aggressive, militaristic, but too confident in their numbers and might. They win the battle and stop the Crane attack aimed at destroying their siege machines, they kill a lot of them with the pinch manouvre, and then overcommit and get punished.

Dragon seems to have much more problems than answers, it's a clan depicted as in decline and in need of support from allies to survive.

Again, none of them are depicted in their strenghts, more in their weaknesses I feel. And I like it, because it makes for a good and interesting setting for the future instead of the bland "clan x is great at this, y at that" of the general description.

There is time and place to show clans weaknesses though. First fiction should be a way to get people interested in the presented clan and trying them out in game.

You can also do it gracefully like the Dragon fiction did. Even though their clan seems to be in a big trouble they still look competent albeit mysterious.

If the new player reads first Lion fiction, prefaced on every website with praises of how powerful their army is and how advanced tactics they use in battle, only to see them lose immediately because they didn't predict that there may be a dozen archers in the city they are attacking, it doesn't make him really enjoy the clan.

Again - Crane are supposed to be perfectionists, artists and duelists - first fiction gives you that.

Dragon are supposed to be mysterious mystics sitting in the mountains and meditating - first fiction gives you that.

Lion are supposed to have most powerful army and greatest strategists - fiction gives you the polar opposite of that.

17 minutes ago, BordOne said:

There is time and place to show clans weaknesses though. First fiction should be a way to get people interested in the presented clan and trying them out in game.

I may be wrong, but the fictions seems to target returning players much more than new ones. They are written to reassure old fans about the setting and characters, more than catching the attention of new ones (most of them will jump onboard anyway only after release and will probable never read these stories)

I agree about the depiction of Lion, but to me Toturi was the real focus there, more than the clan. Same as Hotaru. The dragon story did surely a better job in depicting the situation and describing the clan, also because the champion is not really at the center of the story

16 minutes ago, BordOne said:

There is time and place to show clans weaknesses though.

Every fiction thus far has shown the relevant clan's weaknesses.

The Crane are led by a champion plagued by self-doubt, emotionally compromised by her relationship with a Scorpion manipulator, while their food stocks are low, forcing them to be far more circumspect in their financial dealings.

The Lion are led by a man thought to be too indecisive by some of his followers, a man passed over for his far more popular brother.

The Dragon are feeling the pinch of a declining birthrate, but are about to march forth into the Empire despite not having a solution to their woes.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Every fiction thus far has shown the relevant clan's weaknesses.

The Crane are led by a champion plagued by self-doubt, emotionally compromised by her relationship with a Scorpion manipulator, while their food stocks are low, forcing them to be far more circumspect in their financial dealings.

The Lion are led by a man thought to be too indecisive by some of his followers, a man passed over for his far more popular brother.

The Dragon are feeling the pinch of a declining birthrate, but are about to march forth into the Empire despite not having a solution to their woes.

It's like you have just read the first sentence and didn't bother with the rest of the post. I said it is ok to point out the weaknesses of the clans like they did with Crane and even better with Dragon, without making them look like a bunch of incompetent fools, because they have shown what these clans are actually good at.

Right now the only thing the Lion are good at though is charging straight into traps and getting their leaders killed off by archers.

1 hour ago, franzvong said:

I may be wrong, but the fictions seems to target returning players much more than new ones. They are written to reassure old fans about the setting and characters, more than catching the attention of new ones (most of them will jump onboard anyway only after release and will probable never read these stories)

I agree about the depiction of Lion, but to me Toturi was the real focus there, more than the clan. Same as Hotaru. The dragon story did surely a better job in depicting the situation and describing the clan, also because the champion is not really at the center of the story

Why not do both? Why not reach out to old fans and show the strength of the clan to new ones? Dragon fiction didn't seem to have any problem in doing that while also showing the problems that they face.

Also I don't think that the only way to reach out to the old fans was insta gibbing Lion's champion(I guess it is tradition by now?) and making them lose their first battle ever. I can think about a plethora of better ways to introduce them and I am not a good writer.

edit: just to be clear i don't criticize the writing but the plot. Also I don't hate it I am just sad Lion clan looks meh or even worse compared to the rest if you are looking only at the fictions

6 hours ago, franzvong said:

Well, he may be brilliant, does not make him a good leader or general.

The term "brilliant" normally used in a military context most often times means that person is a great general or tactician. While I do agree it will be interesting to see how Toturi grows, I still feel like the fiction did a poor job of showing off Toturi's prowess as a general. Additionally, for a clan that is supposed to contain some of the best generals, tacticians, and samurai in Rokugan, the fiction made the Lion seem much more aggressive, hotheaded, and generally more strategically incompetent than one would expect.

Wel, he was praised for his Matsu blood and Matsu wife. They got the aggressive and hotheaded right atleast.

4 hours ago, BordOne said:

Also I don't think that the only way to reach out to the old fans was insta gibbing Lion's champion(I guess it is tradition by now?) and making them lose their first battle ever.

I was under the impression that they WON the battle, but their pride and arrogance caused them to overstep, resulting in the death of their champion. They set a trap, pulled it off, and used their superior military might to force the Crane back to the walls. Had they simply stopped there and siege, it would have been a great victory. It was marred in the end by an overly aggressive assault, fueled by bloodlust from battle and a desire for greater glory. Seems like a pretty good depiction of Lion's strengths and weaknesses to me.

25 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

I was under the impression that they WON the battle, but their pride and arrogance caused them to overstep, resulting in the death of their champion. They set a trap, pulled it off, and used their superior military might to force the Crane back to the walls. Had they simply stopped there and siege, it would have been a great victory. It was marred in the end by an overly aggressive assault, fueled by bloodlust from battle and a desire for greater glory. Seems like a pretty good depiction of Lion's strengths and weaknesses to me.

If they had listened to Toturi they would have sieged and probably prevailed. I think it did a good job showing the Lion's strength and weakness as well as Toturi's strength and weakness. I think his weakness is on greater display because for most of the story we are seeing him through Tsuko's eyes, and she clearly can't relate to him at all. That said his counter attack was successful and his siege strategy was sound (as he was considering the long term ramifications of this conflict). Also I read it as Tsuko and Arasou kind of feed off each other and therefore their actions were more amplified and less measured than they otherwise might have been. The interactions between Toturi, Agetoki and Motso are all much more rational and measured. So really it's Tsuko who comes off bad in the story. I think everyone else is pretty relatable. They all react as expected to her hyperbole.

8 hours ago, BordOne said:

Lion are supposed to have most powerful army and greatest strategists - fiction gives you the polar opposite of that.

I think it's this clan's description (as per FFG marketing) that opens a big can of worms.

In (real) history, whenever this combination happened, the faction with the most powerful army and the best generals conquered huge chunks of their known world. Just to name a few occurrences, the Persians, Alexander, the Romans, the Arab empire, Genghis Khan, Tamerlan up to Napoleon and WW2 Germany. The best army+best generals combo usually has only one outcome, even if short-lived.

For the Lion, that seems to have also quite an aggressive stance, it means mainly two things:

- either they should be in firm control of Rokugan, having won a series of wars in the past

- or they have been badly defeated by an alliance of other clans, that disbanded their armies and curbed their army, seriously limiting their military might

From my (maybe wrong) understanding, nothing like that happened, leaving therefore only a third, unrealistic option: the best army with the best generals keeps trying, but loses unexplicably every time due to errors, blunders, misfortune...

2 minutes ago, franzvong said:

I think it's this clan's description (as per FFG marketing) that opens a big can of worms.

In (real) history, whenever this combination happened, the faction with the most powerful army and the best generals conquered huge chunks of their known world. Just to name a few occurrences, the Persians, Alexander, the Romans, the Arab empire, Genghis Khan, Tamerlan up to Napoleon and WW2 Germany. The best army+best generals combo usually has only one outcome, even if short-lived.

For the Lion, that seems to have also quite an aggressive stance, it means mainly two things:

- either they should be in firm control of Rokugan, having won a series of wars in the past

- or they have been badly defeated by an alliance of other clans, that disbanded their armies and curbed their army, seriously limiting their military might

From my (maybe wrong) understanding, nothing like that happened, leaving therefore only a third, unrealistic option: the best army with the best generals keeps trying, but loses unexplicably every time due to errors, blunders, misfortune...

I agree with you, I don't want Lion to win every battle. And I don't want them to have the only bright tacticians in Rokugan. But why not just let them win the first battle they participate in to actually show their prowess? At least just show what that clan is about.

These are just my feelings tho. Hope they can do something cool next time, doesn't look like it tho as all other clans seem to slowly turn against them

20 minutes ago, franzvong said:

I think it's this clan's description (as per FFG marketing) that opens a big can of worms.

In (real) history, whenever this combination happened, the faction with the most powerful army and the best generals conquered huge chunks of their known world. Just to name a few occurrences, the Persians, Alexander, the Romans, the Arab empire, Genghis Khan, Tamerlan up to Napoleon and WW2 Germany. The best army+best generals combo usually has only one outcome, even if short-lived.

This gets back to a discussion a few months ago -- I can't remember which thread, or I'd dig it out -- about the contradictions inherent in having a reasonably strong central power (the imperial families) and an isolationist country and frequent internal warfare. The Crab make sense as a military powerhouse because they're fighting the Shadowlands, i.e. an unquestionable enemy, and one with the strength and resources to be a constant threat. But the Lion are a military powerhouse who fight . . . ? Other loyal subjects of the Emperor? Who aren't military powerhouses, and yet don't get squished by the Lion? And for some reason the Emperor has the power to stop wars that cut into his tax revenue and kill off his faithful subjects, but he doesn't because Reasons? The Lion would make perfect sense if Rokugan were expansionist, or fighting frequent wars against gaijin, or (if you want to assign gaijin-fighting duties to the Unicorn, the other inexplicable military powerhouse) if there were lots of internal rebellions and the Lion were how the Emperor put those down. But the setup means the Lion somehow need to be militarily awesome, without ever being able to truly conquer their enemies -- they can only ever inflict temporary, small-scale defeats.

7 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

This gets back to a discussion a few months ago -- I can't remember which thread, or I'd dig it out -- about the contradictions inherent in having a reasonably strong central power (the imperial families) and an isolationist country and frequent internal warfare. The Crab make sense as a military powerhouse because they're fighting the Shadowlands, i.e. an unquestionable enemy, and one with the strength and resources to be a constant threat. But the Lion are a military powerhouse who fight . . . ? Other loyal subjects of the Emperor? Who aren't military powerhouses, and yet don't get squished by the Lion? And for some reason the Emperor has the power to stop wars that cut into his tax revenue and kill off his faithful subjects, but he doesn't because Reasons? The Lion would make perfect sense if Rokugan were expansionist, or fighting frequent wars against gaijin, or (if you want to assign gaijin-fighting duties to the Unicorn, the other inexplicable military powerhouse) if there were lots of internal rebellions and the Lion were how the Emperor put those down. But the setup means the Lion somehow need to be militarily awesome, without ever being able to truly conquer their enemies -- they can only ever inflict temporary, small-scale defeats.

I always thought that was more a feature than a bug. A military power constantly frustrated because they can't actually achieve anything?

If I were the emperor, having 5 armies ready to lash out at any percieved slight seems like a wonderful intimidation tool against those who forget who is head cheese. Or an auto-load method of punishment for similar reasons.

24 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

This gets back to a discussion a few months ago -- I can't remember which thread, or I'd dig it out -- about the contradictions inherent in having a reasonably strong central power (the imperial families) and an isolationist country and frequent internal warfare. The Crab make sense as a military powerhouse because they're fighting the Shadowlands, i.e. an unquestionable enemy, and one with the strength and resources to be a constant threat. But the Lion are a military powerhouse who fight . . . ? Other loyal subjects of the Emperor? Who aren't military powerhouses, and yet don't get squished by the Lion? And for some reason the Emperor has the power to stop wars that cut into his tax revenue and kill off his faithful subjects, but he doesn't because Reasons? The Lion would make perfect sense if Rokugan were expansionist, or fighting frequent wars against gaijin, or (if you want to assign gaijin-fighting duties to the Unicorn, the other inexplicable military powerhouse) if there were lots of internal rebellions and the Lion were how the Emperor put those down. But the setup means the Lion somehow need to be militarily awesome, without ever being able to truly conquer their enemies -- they can only ever inflict temporary, small-scale defeats.

I don't think we can ignore the obvious parallels between Japan during their clan wars, before the Shogun consolidated control over the entire region.

Before the Shogun controlled all of Japan each clan was constantly at war with each other, and the Emperor was more symbolic. He would collect taxes from all of the clans, and could theoretically intercede on the behalf of any clan to stop a war but the clan daimyo were in constant conflict between each other. If you put L5R in this period then the Lion and Crane are both the real powers that be. The Lion have subjugated the other clans and as such very much IS the ruling military. They serve as the Emperor's military which is basically a way of saying they run things "in the Emperor's name." The Crane and the Lion are such fierce rivals because the Crane know how to use politics and draw out the Emperor's words to hold the Lion back. Basically they are the only clan the Lion haven't either allied with, or defeated.

If we place L5R after the Shogun came to power and instituted "peace" among all of the clans then the Lion would no longer be serving on the field of battle. If this is the L5R we want to live in, then there essentially is no "war" and no one could have their own army. Samurai focused more on duels at this point and samurai from all clans lost their edge... and then the fire nation struck.

L5R doesn't specifically fit into either as it is a fictional amalgamation, but personally I prefer to place L5R more in the time leading up to the Shogun. This gives us the ability to have wars. As far as the Emperor and his taxes, whether the Crane or the Lion control Toshi Ranbo doesn't matter, he'll still collect his due. The Crane took the city from the Lion a few hundred years ago, and the Lion would have every reason to take it back. The Lion could also march on any other territory or against any other clan as leverage to either collect tribute, enforce their will (place their own magistrates to oversee the laws / taxes) or simply take over an area. Peasants are property, just like the land is, and it's all up to who can defend their lands at that point.

Wiktory! I remembered my own phrasing well enough to dig up the relevant thread on the first try. Here's my initial comment; the discussion goes on for a while.

3 hours ago, Casanunda said:

I was under the impression that they WON the battle, but their pride and arrogance caused them to overstep, resulting in the death of their champion. They set a trap, pulled it off, and used their superior military might to force the Crane back to the walls. Had they simply stopped there and siege, it would have been a great victory. It was marred in the end by an overly aggressive assault, fueled by bloodlust from battle and a desire for greater glory. Seems like a pretty good depiction of Lion's strengths and weaknesses to me.

As a Lion player, that's how I took it as well. Each of these stories has a flavor of each clans strengths and weaknesses I feel. Lion shows the strength of their tactics and military but the weakness of aggression and infighting. Dragon shows the power and knowledge that they have, but also the risk of misinterpreting or not acting on the visions. Crane, to me, came out the strongest as I never really saw a weakness of the Crane, maybe I just need to read it again to be certain, but the political focus definitely shows.

49 minutes ago, franzvong said:

I think it's this clan's description (as per FFG marketing) that opens a big can of worms.

In (real) history, whenever this combination happened, the faction with the most powerful army and the best generals conquered huge chunks of their known world. Just to name a few occurrences, the Persians, Alexander, the Romans, the Arab empire, Genghis Khan, Tamerlan up to Napoleon and WW2 Germany. The best army+best generals combo usually has only one outcome, even if short-lived.

For the Lion, that seems to have also quite an aggressive stance, it means mainly two things:

- either they should be in firm control of Rokugan, having won a series of wars in the past

- or they have been badly defeated by an alliance of other clans, that disbanded their armies and curbed their army, seriously limiting their military might

From my (maybe wrong) understanding, nothing like that happened, leaving therefore only a third, unrealistic option: the best army with the best generals keeps trying, but loses unexplicably every time due to errors, blunders, misfortune...

I think part of this is supposed to be coming out of a supposed 1000 years of peace. They are said to be veterans of many wars, which doesn't quite sound right to me.

Right now I picture this as a mix of the warring Italian merchant lords, and right before the century of famous Japanese war period I can never remember the name of. They have had many small disputes of land, a few big battles, but for the most part they have had their hands tied until now. Now if they start losing to an honor victory that could very well mean that the other clans are uniting against them.

In a few decades every clan will hsve veterans. Right now it's mostly just the Lion and the Crab both are unhappy with their current state and they are ready to change things.

2 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

I think part of this is supposed to be coming out of a supposed 1000 years of peace. They are said to be veterans of many wars, which doesn't quite sound right to me.

Right now I picture this as a mix of the warring Italian merchant lords, and right before the century of famous Japanese war period I can never remember the name of. They have had many small disputes of land, a few big battles, but for the most part they have had their hands tied until now. Now if they start losing to an honor victory that could very well mean that the other clans are uniting against them.

In a few decades every clan will hsve veterans. Right now it's mostly just the Lion and the Crab both are unhappy with their current state and they are ready to change things.

'wars' is probably the wrong word. Eternal Skirmishing is more apt.

The lion have probably seen a fight every summer of each one of those 1k yrs.

4 minutes ago, OokamiGauru said:

Crane, to me, came out the strongest as I never really saw a weakness of the Crane, maybe I just need to read it again to be certain, but the political focus definitely shows

Hotaru's attraction to Kayuchi might be seen as her "weakness". The Crane are taught to admire culture and beauty; a woman as beautiful as Kayuchi could be seen as almost personifying those traits, making her difficult for Hotaru to resist. She may even come to know that she is being used for some other purpose, but she just can't help herself. It could be representative of a Crane flaw, that appreciating beauty and culture can blind you when it comes to discerning something's true value. That's sort of how I interpreted it.