7 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Fu Leng, The 9th Kami, is still around.

So is Shinjo, but she is locked up in a crystal or something. We also don't know what really happened with... pretty much everyone except Shiba and Hantei (these two are ded for sure).

9 hours ago, Fumi said:

You're right about Togashi being iconic. He was maybe too iconic: he ended up defining the Dragon Clan ... when he died, they were left with nothing to do. "Finding enlightenment" is nice and all, but it's not a good purpose for a faction because it doesn't involve other people, only the self. It doesn't make for good storytelling. This left the story team struggling to find relevancy for the Dragon, and largely failing.

IMHO, this is a bit of a red herring. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that not having the classic Togashi leaves the fiction team needing to come up with a relevancy for the Dragon. If that's true, then it's true even without Togashi. If the FFG Dragon Clan doesn't have that Togashi, the FFG fiction team still has to come up with what they're going to do with Dragon - and in a way that still captures the feeling of the classic L5R Clan War era Dragon Clan (which was led by the that Togashi).

Note that I don't actually accept the position that having Togashi and then not having Togashi creates some special relevance problem for the Dragon (the fiction lead and the writers, of course, have to come up with some role for the clan to play in every story arc, but in the same way that they need to do that for every clan). Togashi (who was basically a walking plot device, not a protagonist) made it super-easy to fit the Dragon into a story, because if necessary he let the writers do most any semi-reasonable thing they wanted with the Dragon - maybe you wonder why the Dragon send an army to inject itself into that war over there, or put their entire military at the disposal of some disgraced ronin, or whatever, but the players accept it because Togashi. But taking away that plot device doesn't make the Dragon hard, it just makes them normal.

You mention the story team being left struggling to find relevancy for the Dragon Clan. I'll note that the only Story Team that was left struggling to find relevancy for the Dragon Clan was the incarnation of the Story Team that went into it thinking that Togashi was a problem - indeed, they had difficulties with what to do with the Dragon Clan in part because of the preconceived notions held by some members of that team about there being something wrong about how the Dragon had previously been presented, wanting to reinvent them, but not really knowing what they wanted to reinvent them to. All of the Story Teams before them somehow figured out a way to make Dragon "relevant." I'm not going to claim that every thing that every other story team did with the Dragon was perfect, but there was no issue finding something for the Dragon to do in the plot.

So, we've kicked the Togashi-ball about. I've done my venting about 'THAT PERSON'.

What about the fiction itself? Given what we know about the Dragon troubles, anyone want to speculate on where they're going to take the story?

2 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

What about the fiction itself? Given what we know about the Dragon troubles, anyone want to speculate on where they're going to take the story?

It is gonna be Fudo, man. The story is going to be Togashi&pals facing off fudoists and being very SAD about it. Probably with a small Hitomi cameo.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

It is gonna be Fudo, man. The story is going to be Togashi&pals facing off fudoists and being very SAD about it. Probably with a small Hitomi cameo.

Ugh fudo.

Maybe we can go with something like the Order of the Spider instead

Can Kistu Okura be the new Yogo Jenzo ? I would love if the lion open the black scrolls this time around

Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Ugh fudo.

Maybe we can go with something like the Order of the Spider instead

I like Fudo. He and his bunch were wasted in the old!canon, let's see what they can do with them in the new.

5 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

So, we've kicked the Togashi-ball about. I've done my venting about 'THAT PERSON'.

What about the fiction itself? Given what we know about the Dragon troubles, anyone want to speculate on where they're going to take the story?

Sure, I'll bite. First though, has it been confirmed that Dragon are next, or are we just guessing here?

Anyway, I'm going to predict that Dragon will be the first (only?) fiction not written from the Champion's POV. Whether FFG has decided to change the Togashi story or not, I think they'll at least want to tease that for a while longer, and they can maintain that ambiguity by not giving us Yokuni's viewpoint. Maybe it's the fanboy in me, but I'll predict we see the fiction written from Mitsu's POV.

What will they do with it? Well, if Dragon were last in the lineup, I'd predict that we'll see Mitsu watching an ominous meeting between Yokuni and the Scorpion champion - whether or not he finds out what happens in the meeting. But if they're actually next up, it seems a bit early to hit us with the beginning of the coup. Now, they have hinted at a heretical movement in the Dragon mountains, and that could be a good reveal, especially if it's something like the shourido philosophy. A final possibility would be another callback to Old5R, and let us get the Satsu-Yakamo duel, or alternatively a Hitomi-Yakamo showdown with callbacks to the Satsu duel to explain why they hate each other.

1 minute ago, Willisbatman said:

Can Kistu Okura be the new Yogo Jenzo ? I would love if the lion open the black scrolls this time around

I have this (unverified) feeling that neither Yori or Junzo are going to be around this time. So yes Okura is a good choice for 'Evil Idiot Shugenja'

4 minutes ago, agarrett said:

Sure, I'll bite. First though, has it been confirmed that Dragon are next, or are we just guessing here?

Anyway, I'm going to predict that Dragon will be the first (only?) fiction not written from the Champion's POV. Whether FFG has decided to change the Togashi story or not, I think they'll at least want to tease that for a while longer, and they can maintain that ambiguity by not giving us Yokuni's viewpoint. Maybe it's the fanboy in me, but I'll predict we see the fiction written from Mitsu's POV.

What will they do with it? Well, if Dragon were last in the lineup, I'd predict that we'll see Mitsu watching an ominous meeting between Yokuni and the Scorpion champion - whether or not he finds out what happens in the meeting. But if they're actually next up, it seems a bit early to hit us with the beginning of the coup. Now, they have hinted at a heretical movement in the Dragon mountains, and that could be a good reveal, especially if it's something like the shourido philosophy. A final possibility would be another callback to Old5R, and let us get the Satsu-Yakamo duel, or alternatively a Hitomi-Yakamo showdown with callbacks to the Satsu duel to explain why they hate each other.

Well the drags won the twitter vote so they're supposably next up.

I don't think the coup, or anything like it is going to happen this time around.

I like the rest of though. Mitsu vs. (spider) monks?

glorious.

I have this feeling that we won't have a Scorpion Clan Coup. And I think they will reveal Togashi in the first few fics, because his real identity isn't a true secret anymore, so the shock-value is non-existent.

22 minutes ago, agarrett said:

Sure, I'll bite. First though, has it been confirmed that Dragon are next, or are we just guessing here?

Anyway, I'm going to predict that Dragon will be the first (only?) fiction not written from the Champion's POV.

Dragon was listed as winning the twitter vote to go next (they beat Crab; I voted for Crab to be next, if anyone was curious).

I concur with the prediction that the Dragon fiction will not be from Yokuni's point of view.

So far we've seen fictions with plot points that are twists on things that happened in Classic L5R (death of Satsume; death of Arasou). Really the only comparable Dragon plot point from before the Scorpion Clan Coup is the death of Mirumoto Satsu (although I personally would rather see the twist of having some sort of happy family with everyone alive for Satsu/Hitomi/Daini ... although there's really no drama in that to write about).

I don't know what they might be doing with the heresy thing. Folks keep looking to rehash things Ivory Edition, but inserting part of the Spider Clan into the Dragon Clan seems like it would be doomed from the start if you're trying to write a fiction that Dragon Clan players actually like.* Plus the Order of the Spider doesn't really have any philosophy beyond wanting to hit stuff and be tough. There's not a lot of ground there for a meaningful heresy - they aren't a variant philosophy, more of a lack of one. Fudoism would be better, although not by a ton - again, they'd be taking an external enemy and making it part of the Clan. If an internal philosophical division is going to be a major plot point, it should be an organic, internal division, not shoehorning some other group into the Dragon (if they want that plot, why wouldn't they make it an external group, which would draw the Dragon into wider conflict?). If you wanted to pull something pre-existing from L5R, I think it would be better to use something like the heresy of the five rings (a group that thought there should only be five clans, one for each element) - they could cause problems by arguing that (for example) the Unicorn should be kicked out of the Empire and the Scorpion merged with the Crane.

edit: If Yokuni's identify as Togashi did become public, a pretty easy heresy would be part of the Dragon Clan believing that, because Togashi is an actual Kami, he has a better claim to the throne than some thirtysomething times revoked Hantei

The Heresy of the Dragon that I most want to see is the Madness of the Dark Lotus, with a more imposing Kokujin beginning to corrupt the monasteries in his quest for more divinity. They could really do a lot with Kokujin, and then with Mitsu and the Dragon.

8 minutes ago, Daramere said:

Dragon was listed as winning the twitter vote to go next (they beat Crab; I voted for Crab to be next, if anyone was curious).

I concur with the prediction that the Dragon fiction will not be from Yokuni's point of view.

So far we've seen fictions with plot points that are twists on things that happened in Classic L5R (death of Satsume; death of Arasou). Really the only comparable Dragon plot point from before the Scorpion Clan Coup is the death of Mirumoto Satsu (although I personally would rather see the twist of having some sort of happy family with everyone alive for Satsu/Hitomi/Daini ... although there's really no drama in that to write about).

I don't know what they might be doing with the heresy thing. Folks keep looking to rehash things Ivory Edition, but inserting part of the Spider Clan into the Dragon Clan seems like it would be doomed from the start if you're trying to write a fiction that Dragon Clan players actually like.* Plus the Order of the Spider doesn't really have any philosophy beyond wanting to hit stuff and be tough. There's not a lot of ground there for a meaningful heresy - they aren't a variant philosophy, more of a lack of one. Fudoism would be better, although not by a ton - again, they'd be taking an external enemy and making it part of the Clan. If an internal philosophical division is going to be a major plot point, it should be an organic, internal division, not shoehorning some other group into the Dragon (if they want that plot, why wouldn't they make it an external group, which would draw the Dragon into wider conflict?). If you wanted to pull something pre-existing from L5R, I think it would be better to use something like the heresy of the five rings (a group that thought there should only be five clans, one for each element) - they could cause problems by arguing that (for example) the Unicorn should be kicked out of the Empire and the Scorpion merged with the Crane.

edit: If Yokuni's identify as Togashi did become public, a pretty easy heresy would be part of the Dragon Clan believing that, because Togashi is an actual Kami, he has a better claim to the throne than some thirtysomething times revoked Hantei

While I liked the 5 rings heresy, It wasn't considered heresy until Gorinno used to destabilized things.

If cant be some Spider variant, then that nutbar Kokujin is probably the next most logical. As to what his philosophy is (besides skinning people for their tattoos) I have no idea (yet)

The Yakmo/Satsu duel would be a way to tie both fics together ala Lion/Crane, We'll see.

5 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

The Heresy of the Dragon that I most want to see is the Madness of the Dark Lotus, with a more imposing Kokujin beginning to corrupt the monasteries in his quest for more divinity. They could really do a lot with Kokujin, and then with Mitsu and the Dragon.

You may get your wish, Kookyjin is probably our villian. Dark Lotus Returns!

Seriously.... The Dark Lotus has SOOOOO much potential. Kokujin can EASILY go from a side story villain to a major issue for the empire.

3 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Seriously.... The Dark Lotus has SOOOOO much potential. Kokujin can EASILY go from a side story villain to a major issue for the empire.

Im intruiged. I may have to find out more. I can't remember much about Kokujin other than the skinning and the Shameswords.

57 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I have this feeling that we won't have a Scorpion Clan Coup. And I think they will reveal Togashi in the first few fics, because his real identity isn't a true secret anymore, so the shock-value is non-existent.

It could be interesting if they avoid the subject in a way that leaves it up to speculation whether Togashi is Togashi or not. Maybe some monks are depicted as "crazy" by saying they are following the orders of the Kami but they are actually stopped by Mirumoto who are investigating the "cultish" order of monks.

If their motives and actions aren't really villainous but ARE unusual and possibly "criminal" it could create some inner strife between the families as the Togashi believe in their Kami but the Mirumoto are more ingrained with the standard Rokugan format. Maybe the order is ambushing rice deliveries to give that rice back to the people during this famine (links back to Crane story. The ronin that Hotaru dispatched was using niten style)

It could then be revealed later that Togashi is Kami and these monks are his chosen order, or it could be revealed that there isn't even a real person serving as Togashi family Daimyo and Kokujin has been misleading the order astray...

1 hour ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I have this (unverified) feeling that neither Yori or Junzo are going to be around this time. So yes Okura is a good choice for 'Evil Idiot Shugenja'

But Okura's choices lead to the old Guardian of the Heavens coming about; much better choices than Junzo or Yori

The "Prophet of the Dark Lotus" thing came much later. I think it basically consisted of "violence = enlightenment." He mostly fomented unrest among the peasantry. Like the Order of the Spider, there isn't really much of a "philosophy" to it. That doesn't mean Kokujin can't be a nifty villain, but that isn't much of a heresy - his power was basically to magically make people go crazy after listening to his nonsense (maybe it's like the L5R version of listening to Cthulhu cultists).

1 minute ago, Daramere said:

The "Prophet of the Dark Lotus" thing came much later. I think it basically consisted of "violence = enlightenment." He mostly fomented unrest among the peasantry. Like the Order of the Spider, there isn't really much of a "philosophy" to it. That doesn't mean Kokujin can't be a nifty villain, but that isn't much of a heresy - his power was basically to magically make people go crazy after listening to his nonsense (maybe it's like the L5R version of listening to Cthulhu cultists).

Wait the voices in my head say Cthulhu is always right are you implying they are lying?

1 minute ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

But Okura's choices lead to the old Guardian of the Heavens coming about; much better choices than Junzo or Yori

I was, and remain, undecided about the redeemed oni story

2 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Wait the voices in my head say Cthulhu is always right are you implying they are lying?

CTHULHU FTAGN!!!

sorry, had to be done.

6 minutes ago, Daramere said:

The "Prophet of the Dark Lotus" thing came much later. I think it basically consisted of "violence = enlightenment." He mostly fomented unrest among the peasantry. Like the Order of the Spider, there isn't really much of a "philosophy" to it. That doesn't mean Kokujin can't be a nifty villain, but that isn't much of a heresy - his power was basically to magically make people go crazy after listening to his nonsense (maybe it's like the L5R version of listening to Cthulhu cultists).

What about the Shimaki? Is that heretical, or just considered odd?

1 hour ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I was, and remain, undecided about the redeemed oni story

The idea of her becoming the guardian of the heavens is not a awful idea I feel it lacked something in it's execution ( it also left a romance option with the void Dragon on the table which could have been cool ) I liked the idea that no matter how dark the soul of a lion became it could never be corrupted which is why I want them to walk a dark path this time around