9 hours ago, RandomJC said:

Oh, didn't read those books either.

Wow, I knew there were a few lrft in the world,

but geez even my MOTHER has read those

I haven't read Game of Thrones or watch the tv series, nor did anyone in my immediate family. Something in me rejects GoT at fundamental level.

16 minutes ago, WHW said:

I haven't read Game of Thrones or watch the tv series, nor did anyone in my immediate family. Something in me rejects GoT at fundamental level.

Every humorous response I tried to come up with for this came across as unecessarily snotty (including creative uses of the word 'fundament'.

Then I realized I hold that view of many things myself. So ...

lers talk about L5R instead.

Excited about the Dragon fiction next week? Do you want super Togashi or 'nerfed' Togashi?

Hmmmmm. I would prefer "your Togashi is on another mountain" Togashi - one that is annoyingly out of phone range when his Clan is in trouble, which forces Dragon to

a) search for him

b) deal with the issue on their own while they search for him

I like Dragon Clan philosophy and so on, but I had mixed feelings towards Togashi himself. I'm one of the few people who actually prefer retconned "body stealer not rly a dragon" Togashi to the Dragon Master Planner Togashi; but I find the inner conflict of a coward who despite everything tries his best to save his empire while desperately trying to avoid the future incredibly fascinating.

39 minutes ago, WHW said:

Hmmmmm. I would prefer "your Togashi is on another mountain" Togashi - one that is annoyingly out of phone range when his Clan is in trouble, which forces Dragon to

a) search for him

b) deal with the issue on their own while they search for him

That sounds quite similar to the "your Skywalker is on another planet" plot ?

Works for me.

13 minutes ago, WHW said:

Hmmmmm. I would prefer "your Togashi is on another mountain" Togashi - one that is annoyingly out of phone range when his Clan is in trouble, which forces Dragon to

a) search for him

b) deal with the issue on their own while they search for him

I like Dragon Clan philosophy and so on, but I had mixed feelings towards Togashi himself. I'm one of the few people who actually prefer retconned "body stealer not rly a dragon" Togashi to the Dragon Master Planner Togashi; but I find the inner conflict of a coward who despite everything tries his best to save his empire while desperately trying to avoid the future incredibly fascinating.

Yeah, I can get behind the Togashi -as-plot device scenario. I'm just happy the Dragon have a purpose behind them besides 'Spider chaperone' or 'kooky wise men'.

as for Hitomi...I recommend a personality transplant, or another Hotaru cameo.

6 minutes ago, Doji Hana said:

That sounds quite similar to the "your Skywalker is on planet" plot ?

Works for me.

heh

'You will go to the Iron Mountain......."

Yup still workable as a hook

21 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

as for Hitomi...I recommend a personality transplant, or another Hotaru cameo.

T_T

I hope they find a way to let Dragon fans have Togashi as an active element without having his presence utterly deform his clan- and if Heaven's Net is to be staved off, his vision- or his intentions (either/or, not both) needs to be murkier.

2 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Wow, I knew there were a few lrft in the world,

but geez even my MOTHER has read those

It's what happens when someone you know incessantly talks about them, asking you to read them, so when you decide to, they constantly talk about spoilers, even after being asked several times to not talk about spoilers.

That and I found the first book to be really kind of boring.

9 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I hope they find a way to let Dragon fans have Togashi as an active element without having his presence utterly deform his clan- and if Heaven's Net is to be staved off, his vision- or his intentions (either/or, not both) needs to be murkier.

If those are my choices I'll go more imperfect visions. Since I thought Togashi's general intention is'preserve the empire' changing that could lead to an 'Evil Togashi' scenario.....which could be fun.

48 minutes ago, WHW said:

Hmmmmm. I would prefer "your Togashi is on another mountain" Togashi - one that is annoyingly out of phone range when his Clan is in trouble, which forces Dragon to

a) search for him

b) deal with the issue on their own while they search for him

I like Dragon Clan philosophy and so on, but I had mixed feelings towards Togashi himself. I'm one of the few people who actually prefer retconned "body stealer not rly a dragon" Togashi to the Dragon Master Planner Togashi; but I find the inner conflict of a coward who despite everything tries his best to save his empire while desperately trying to avoid the future incredibly fascinating.

I think most of the negative reaction to that was because it was a retcon that introduced a lot of plot holes. If it were that way from the beginning, I suspect most Dragon players would be OK with it.

Let me brashly speak for 99% of Dragon players when I say that, no, Togashi as body-hopping soul vampire is not something we're interested in. And I'm pretty sure almost nobody (Dragon or not) is interested in their Clan Champion's concept including the word "coward."

Togashi as Togashi worked just fine in Clan War, and then Togashi reincarnated worked just fine after Enlightened Madness. That's an iconic part of the Dragon Clan and, while I don't know what new players who never saw that might want, Togashi putting the Dragon in Dragon Clan is absolutely something that the bulk of returning Dragon Clan players would want to see. One ST implemented the body-hopping retcon, which was basically ignored with the advent of Gold Edition. A later incarnation of the ST didn't like the reincarnated Togashi, got rid of him, and then spent the better part of a decade blundering through a series of poorly-received Dragon Clan plots. This does not mean that FFG has to repeat their mistakes. Just leave Togashi as Togashi.

5 minutes ago, Daramere said:

Let me brashly speak for 99% of Dragon players when I say that, no, Togashi as body-hopping soul vampire is not something we're interested in. And I'm pretty sure almost nobody (Dragon or not) is interested in their Clan Champion's concept including the word "coward."

Togashi as Togashi worked just fine in Clan War, and then Togashi reincarnated worked just fine after Enlightened Madness. That's an iconic part of the Dragon Clan and, while I don't know what new players who never saw that might want, Togashi putting the Dragon in Dragon Clan is absolutely something that the bulk of returning Dragon Clan players would want to see. One ST implemented the body-hopping retcon, which was basically ignored with the advent of Gold Edition. A later incarnation of the ST didn't like the reincarnated Togashi, got rid of him, and then spent the better part of a decade blundering through a series of poorly-received Dragon Clan plots. This does not mean that FFG has to repeat their mistakes. Just leave Togashi as Togashi.

I'm with you here - I perfer Togashi as Togashi - He is the only Kami who didn't pass away. He keeps a vision on the future of the empire and can enact his plans through his monks. I really love Togashi's monks, and the tatoo power. I hope that stays for sure. Kokujin, dark tattoos, and Hitomi were great as the dark side of the dragon clan too.

18 minutes ago, Daramere said:

Let me brashly speak for 99% of Dragon players when I say that, no, Togashi as body-hopping soul vampire is not something we're interested in. And I'm pretty sure almost nobody (Dragon or not) is interested in their Clan Champion's concept including the word "coward."

Togashi as Togashi worked just fine in Clan War, and then Togashi reincarnated worked just fine after Enlightened Madness. That's an iconic part of the Dragon Clan and, while I don't know what new players who never saw that might want, Togashi putting the Dragon in Dragon Clan is absolutely something that the bulk of returning Dragon Clan players would want to see. One ST implemented the body-hopping retcon, which was basically ignored with the advent of Gold Edition. A later incarnation of the ST didn't like the reincarnated Togashi, got rid of him, and then spent the better part of a decade blundering through a series of poorly-received Dragon Clan plots. This does not mean that FFG has to repeat their mistakes. Just leave Togashi as Togashi.

I can get behind this if we can get into his head a bit and make him a 'real' character.

not a quasi-omnipotent plot device

5 hours ago, shosuko said:

. I hope that stays for sure. Kokujin, dark tattoos, and Hitomi were great as the dark side of the dragon clan too.

I find it a little ironic, even the Scorpion weren't as dark as those two whackdoodles

50 minutes ago, Daramere said:

Let me brashly speak for 99% of Dragon players when I say that, no, Togashi as body-hopping soul vampire is not something we're interested in. And I'm pretty sure almost nobody (Dragon or not) is interested in their Clan Champion's concept including the word "coward."

Togashi as Togashi worked just fine in Clan War, and then Togashi reincarnated worked just fine after Enlightened Madness. That's an iconic part of the Dragon Clan and, while I don't know what new players who never saw that might want, Togashi putting the Dragon in Dragon Clan is absolutely something that the bulk of returning Dragon Clan players would want to see. One ST implemented the body-hopping retcon, which was basically ignored with the advent of Gold Edition. A later incarnation of the ST didn't like the reincarnated Togashi, got rid of him, and then spent the better part of a decade blundering through a series of poorly-received Dragon Clan plots. This does not mean that FFG has to repeat their mistakes. Just leave Togashi as Togashi.

You're right about Togashi being iconic. He was maybe too iconic: he ended up defining the Dragon Clan. Their entire purpose was to follow his near-omniscient will. So when he died, they were left with nothing to do. "Finding enlightenment" is nice and all, but it's not a good purpose for a faction because it doesn't involve other people, only the self. It doesn't make for good storytelling. This left the story team struggling to find relevancy for the Dragon, and largely failing.

They could avoid this by keeping him around, I suppose, but since he's only omniscient when he's inactive, it really doesn't help much. The Dragon would just go back to sitting in the mountains all the time, like in their backstory. Not to mention, it wouldn't be fair to have one faction led indefinitely by a demigod, while the others have to make do with mortals.

I'm not saying body-surfing-Togashi was perfect, he clearly had his own set of problems. And I'm not saying literal-dragon-Togashi can't be done well, because he can be. I'm just saying that whatever FFG does with him, he needs to a) not overshadow the entire plot, and b) leave something for his clan to do after he's gone.

5 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Yeah, I can get behind the Togashi -as-plot device scenario. I'm just happy the Dragon have a purpose behind them besides 'Spider chaperone' or 'kooky wise men'.

as for Hitomi...I recommend a personality transplant, or another Hotaru cameo.

Yeah, my introduction to Dragon clan was Hitomi's origin story. I would love to see her have a light side story this time around. Although I loved the idea of her being a Dragon hero and a villain to every other clan. Just no kami murdering, and cult starting.

As for Kokujin, he came from a tournament win with a heavily tainted monk. More clans should end up with something similar.

1 minute ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

Yeah, my introduction to Dragon clan was Hitomi's origin story. I would love to see her have a light side story this time around. Although I loved the idea of her being a Dragon hero and a villain to every other clan. Just no kami murdering, and cult starting.

As for Kokujin, he came from a tournament win with a heavily tainted monk. More clans should end up with something similar.

I always found her entirely unsympathetic Even with her history. If she hadn't been Dragon, she probably would have been made ronin or even killed. If they can just give her some actual humanity it would improve her character immeasureably.

Case in point, I'm not a Tsuko fan. However her honor was unquestioned, and though I Never saw it in a story, she did in fact have 'friends' of a sort.(like Tsanuri or Hokitare according to Way of the Lion'

Hitomi has none of this. no honor no friends nada.

They have a new blank canvas to use if they wish. Hitomi could use some more 'filling in' this time.

7 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

as for Hitomi...I recommend a personality transplant, or another Hotaru cameo.

I hope that the story team will be able to do whatever they want with Hitomi without another HDM to destroy the intended story.

31 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

I hope that the story team will be able to do whatever they want with Hitomi without another HDM to destroy the intended story.

Shhhh we really don't need to mention 'that term' anymore in this thread

But yes, having another 'thing we're not mentioning' happen would be a bad omen

What's HDM?

Honorable Dragon Mouvement.

During the Hidden Emperor story arc, Hitomi, champion of the Dragon, was becoming corrupted by her obsidian hand and the influence of Kokujin. Instead of accepting that each story need a "villain" and that those story (with the obvious redemption afterwards) can be interesting in their own right (even more so when they make sense as it did with Hitomi's personality), members of the Dragon Clan (and some from out of that clan) bitched and whined so much and so long that Ree Soesbee caved in and changed the story (for the worse IMO). It was one of the first occurrence (if not the first) that showed that if you whine long enough in L5R, you'd have what you wanted.

To be honest, I think the way they tried to turn the "Hitomi Villany" up to eleven was kinda silly and out-of-character for both her and the Clan. And that says a lot considering Hitomi's unironically flat and shallow character.

9 hours ago, shosuko said:

I'm with you here - I perfer Togashi as Togashi - He is the only Kami who didn't pass away.

Ahem.........

Fu Leng, The 9th Kami, is still around. Defeated at DoT '42 and spirit bound within the Black Scrolls.......But, I'm pretty sure, and Miracle Max would agree, he's only mostly dead.

In other news I heard about this book that would really appeal to readers of all ages it's called "The Wasting Disease" by Isawa. Great read, a real page-turner. Make sure to ask your local librarian in they have a copy.