4 minutes ago, Doji Makoto said:

Was it typical in feudal Japan for commanders and high ranking nobles in general to fight to the death? Because I would say that death of a high noble on European battleffield is a rare occasion.

From my base knowledge, Samurai caste itself was a high caste, and Samurai often served on the battle field. I don't believe it was uncommon for lords to be present at important battles, and even generals would have participated in battle, because Samurai are apart of a warrior culture, and wouldn't be in their nature to sit back at a castle.

That being said, this L5R which lives in that mythical state akin to Dynasty Warriors, where the lords take the battle field and if you're a named character you can slaughter as you please with nary a scratch till a cutscene kills you.

We aren't in wuxia land. We are in Samurai drama land, where the main characters can fight several nameless opponents at once and win, and where people die with single strokes of a blade, but where named characters die when they get swarmed with mooks and where the level of realism is way higher in general.

It's 13 assassins or seven Samurai, not Crouching tiger hidden dragon.

2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

From my base knowledge, Samurai caste itself was a high caste, and Samurai often served on the battle field. I don't believe it was uncommon for lords to be present at important battles, and even generals would have participated in battle, because Samurai are apart of a warrior culture, and wouldn't be in their nature to sit back at a castle.

That being said, this L5R which lives in that mythical state akin to Dynasty Warriors, where the lords take the battle field and if you're a named character you can slaughter as you please with nary a scratch till a cutscene kills you.

Well, my question was more about if it was common for them to get killed (rather than if they even participated). Because European lords and nobles fought in battles, but were usually taken as prisoners.

1 minute ago, Doji Makoto said:

Well, my question was more about if it was common for them to get killed (rather than if they even participated). Because European lords and nobles fought in battles, but were usually taken as prisoners.

It's real situational, from my knowledge. Depends on the conflict, the participants, the goals. How honorable once side is versus the other. It isn't uncommon enough for it to be unrealistic for Arasou to be killed in battle.

7 minutes ago, Doji Makoto said:

Well, my question was more about if it was common for them to get killed (rather than if they even participated).

Not much. IRL samurai tended to switch sides (or flee) rather than die.

8 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

It's real situational, from my knowledge. Depends on the conflict, the participants, the goals. How honorable once side is versus the other. It isn't uncommon enough for it to be unrealistic for Arasou to be killed in battle.

The truth is that the mortality rate of samurai was probably higher than that of European knights. As far as I can tell, they were not used as a shock troop deciding the battle with one charge. And the way they fight in the fiction is especially dangerous for them.

Just now, Doji Makoto said:

The truth is that the mortality rate of samurai was probably higher than that of European knights. As far as I can tell, they were not used as a shock troop deciding the battle with one charge. And the way they fight in the fiction id especially dangerous for them.

Well, it's why the fiction isn't realistic in it's depiction of war and battle. Like a lot of fiction.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Not much. IRL samurai tended to switch sides (or flee) rather than die.

Interesting. I will certainly look more into this topic. Eastern warfare is (contrary to its western counterpart) still a relative mystery to me.

21 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

We aren't in wuxia land. We are in Samurai drama land

These two are not mutually exclusive.

2 hours ago, RandomJC said:

they've also said they do plan on keep doing fictions on the website after release.

Yes, I knew about that. My main concern though is with the depth of the fiction provided, regardless of whether they'll keep the story moving or not.

1 hour ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I do not understand why people think Hotaru shooting Arasou to death is not credible. The only thing not credible about it is that it was Hotaru specifically.

I can't speak for others, but for me the issue with credibility comes from a narrative point of view (not enough build-up before the death happens is one of the main issues), not from a historical one - which is the one you considered in your reply.

I am a new player too. I have to say if it weren't for this discussion I wouldn't be upset with this story at all because, well.. Let's say I am not a Lion clan type, so I didn't really care. I read the story and just thought "meh".

Reading the comments from Lion players here however got me empathizing with them: if I cared about Lion, I would be really annoyed for how my clan was presented and how my Champion was killed. I'll be frank: Lion, as they appear form this story, are not likeable at all. There is not a single positive aspect to their characters besides the fact they're generally a bloodthirsty bunch (if that is a positive at all). Toturi, who is supposed to be a brilliant general, looks more like an indecisive person. This does not come from my general lack of enthusiasm towards the clan: I can easily picture myself an image of the Lion clan which is likeable, even if they aren't my type, but in this story I can't find anything of that.

23 minutes ago, Doji Makoto said:

Well, my question was more about if it was common for them to get killed (rather than if they even participated). Because European lords and nobles fought in battles, but were usually taken as prisoners.

Taking enemies prisoner on the battlefield and ransoming them was a pretty weird and specific cultural practice that was heavily influenced by Christianity. As far as I can tell there isn't a parallel in Japanese warfare. Here's a link to a short relevant page from a book:

http://bit.ly/2rn3frY

2 minutes ago, Eu8L1ch said:

Yes, I knew about that. My main concern though is with the depth of the fiction provided, regardless of whether they'll keep the story moving or not.

It's too early to judge if the fiction will have depth. As others have pointed out these stories are trying to juggle a lot of information in a relatively small amount of space. These stories don't have the luxury of chapters to parse the information in the most natural way, they have 10-ish pages to tell a required amount of information.

What I'm trying to say is that these stories are sacrificing depth for creating foundation. These are prologues to a story, not a complete story in and of themselves and shouldn't necessarily be treated as such. None of these stories are going to go indepth until after the box launch because of that reason. So my point kind of was to wait till we see those stories after the box to get a sense of if there will be depth.

With regard to narrative credibility: I dunno, the sudden downfall in the moment of triumph is pretty standard. I'm sympathetic to your concern about how the clan was portrayed, though -- in particular, Matsu Tsuko was so over the top it was impossible to sympathize with her point of view. It's one thing to be impetuous and hot headed, but her portrayal is so one note it makes her super annoying.

One of the things I'll say is: the iron law of L5R fan reactions is, no matter how a death is written, some people will complain it was anti-climactic and didn't do justice to the character. This is as certain as the tides and the seasons.

Narratively, Arasou is the guy whose death starts this part of the story. Those guys do not usually get a whole let of character development before they go down. A little establishing stuff to show what they were good at and how much people like them and then, bam, curtains, cue the vows of vengeance.

I feel I'm one of the few people who actually liked Matsu Tsuko

6 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

It's too early to judge if the fiction will have depth. As others have pointed out these stories are trying to juggle a lot of information in a relatively small amount of space. These stories don't have the luxury of chapters to parse the information in the most natural way, they have 10-ish pages to tell a required amount of information.

3 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Narratively, Arasou is the guy whose death starts this part of the story. Those guys do not usually get a whole let of character development before they go down. A little establishing stuff to show what they were good at and how much people like them and then, bam, curtains, cue the vows of vengeance.

You guys might be right and I sincerely hope you are!

24 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

These two are not mutually exclusive.

In the sense I am using the terms they are. The action tropes employed by the first two films I mentioned are very different from those of wuxia films. Obviously there is no absolute boundary: some action is more realistic and other action is less. But the difference between how fighting is handled in wuxia, with wire work and elaborate dance like choreography, and unlimited character ability to defeat nameless opponents, and how Kurosawa does it, should be pretty obvious.

L5R has its wuxia moments when monks and shugenja are featured, but what we saw in the Price of War was much less fanciful and closer to Kurosawa style combat.

I'll be the first to say I'm not much of a Lion sympathizer. Nevertheless, I think there's a tendency towards exacerbating the flaws shown of our characters thus far. Sure, Matsu Tsuko comes off as bloodthirsty, hot-headed, disrespectful, violence-prone, and many other nasty words, but she's also shown as loyal, courageous, determined. Toturi clearly is thoughtful, clever, visionary in his ability to see past the present and identify future consequences of his actions, even if these qualities also slow down his decision making process and prevent him from outwardly explaining what he's thinking to others. I find it odd that folks are complaining about a lack of arc in 9-10 pages, but can't see what (to me anyways) is clearly the groundwork for a strong character arc in each we've been shown so far. If, that is, FFG takes advantage of the character infrastructure they've created.

5 minutes ago, Eu8L1ch said:

You guys might be right and I sincerely hope you are!

Unfortunately it's "just wait and see" pattern we have now. Which kind of sucks, since I want it all now.

2 hours ago, Eu8L1ch said:

Reading the comments from Lion players here however got me empathizing with them: if I cared about Lion, I would be really annoyed for how my clan was presented and how my Champion was killed.

Personally, I would compare Arasou's death to Satsume's. Both are not really characters from my point of view but more elements from the background, giving more depth to the true characters of the story (here, respectively Toturi and Hotaru) and explaining the state of the Empire at the beginning of the story (the Lion and the Crane almost at war and the lack of Emerald Champion and the turmoil it will cause).

Should the Crane be annoyed by the assassination of Satsume being told as a side note from Hotaru's story (and we don't even know if it's by somebody of real caliber, it could be Shosuro Schmuck or Yasuki Bob for all we know)? I don't think so. It's character's background (Hotaru) as Arasou's death is characters' background too (Toturi, Tsuko, Hotaru).

That's why I think there was not much build up on Arasou, he was not meant to have it. And that's why his death don't have much impact on the reader, it's not meant to either, it's meant to establish the basis for future drama between the 3 real protagonists of the story. And so, that's why I feel (emphasis intended) that asking for more of those 2 points is missing the point of that part of the story.

But maybe I'm the one that misunderstood the intent of the writer, who knows? At least, with this point of view, the story is enjoyable and not as bad as some claim.

So it has been said that the lion clan and the scorpion Clan have an alliance I hope the backer of that on the scorpion side is a certain Yogo who has been known to resurrect Clan Champions into Undead Horrors then........

1 hour ago, KerenRhys said:

Personally, I'd would compare Arasou's death to Satsume's. Both are not really characters from my point of view but more elements from the background, giving more depth to the true characters of the story (here, respectively Toturi and Hotaru) and explaining the state of the Empire at the beginning of the story (the Lion and the Crane almost at war and the lack of Emerald Champion and the turmoil it will cause).

Should the Crane be annoyed by the assassination of Satsume being told as a side note from Hotaru's story (and we don't even know if it's by somebody of real caliber, it could be Shosuro Schmuck or Yasuki Bob for all we know)? I don't think so. It's character's background (Hotaru) as Arasou's death is characters' background too (Toturi, Tsuko, Hotaru).

That's why I think there was not much build up on Arasou, he was not meant to have it. And that's why his death don't have much impact on the reader, it's not meant to either, it's meant to establish the basis for future drama between the 3 real protagonists of the story. And so, that's why I feel (emphasis intended) that asking for more of those 2 points is missing the point of that part of the story.

But maybe I'm the one that misunderstood the intent of the writer, who knows? At least, with this point of view, the story is enjoyable and not as bad as some claim.

I don't have a problem with Arasou dying, I have a problem with him being two shot in the head like a wild pig by our chosen, soon to be goddess Hotaru.

I tought this story was supposed to hook as a bit on Lion clan, yet the only person that did something cool was her.

It doesn't help that the rest of Lion come off as weak at best(though not totally uninteresting).

Eh I concede I'm not really thinking rationally on this one, just like I said from the beginning I dislike Hotaru and can't help but feel we will be stuck with her for a very long time. I just hope she can come off as less irritating next time I see her

PS yes I would prefer if he was murdered by a group of nameless shmucks, albeit I acknowledge it would be worse for the overall arc

6 minutes ago, BordOne said:

It doesn't help that the rest of Lion come off as weak at best.

I don't get that. Maybe it's because I know those characters from before but I didn't feel the name characters were weak at all. Tsuko, as much as I don't like her (since I don't like people that don't even want to think about the consequences of their actions), was not weak. Agetoki was not weak at all. Toturi was not weak (considering the whole picture of a situation before taking a course of action is not being weak) even if a bit too hesitant (character growth incoming here). Maybe Motso was a bit self-effacing, but that doesn't mean he's weak either.

18 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

I don't get that. Maybe it's because I know those characters from before but I didn't feel the name characters were weak at all. Tsuko, as much as I don't like her (since I don't like people that don't even want to think about the consequences of their actions), was not weak. Agetoki was not weak at all. Toturi was not weak even if a bit too hesitant (character growth incoming here). Maybe Motso was a bit self-effacing, but that doesn't he's weak either.

I am a total newbie, for me it looks like this:

Tsuko comes off as weak, Arasou's death was partially her fault yet she blames everybody around but herself and thinks only about revenge. She doesn't look like a strong person to me.

Agetoki is cool but barely had time to know him. He didn't take part in the action.

Toturi is not ready for his position at all, also cannot win in an argument with stupid Tsuko xD, comes off as uncharismatic (I like this arc tho he has a lot of room to grow) - weak at the moment.

Motso meh

So yeah kinda weak

And then comes all powerful Hotaru, raises bow twice and kills a clan champion.

I swear you all read a different fiction than me.

5 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

I swear you all read a different fiction than me.

I cant remember an L5R fiction I DIDN'T like.

It's all perspective my friend