The Table is Yours is putting on Table Tales 2. A dramatic readings / radio drama of The Price of War.

It's coming along nicely but still trying to find a voice for Matsu Tsuko. If interested, please dm me here.

2 hours ago, Daramere said:

The Lion are not idiotic, but they certainly are brash. And the core Lion gameplay in the LCG (which we'll presumably know more about in a couple of days) seems to be military swarm attacking attacking attacking. So Arasou is kind of playing to type here. It will be interesting to see how the newly-minted Clan Champion handles taking a leadership role over a Clan that is, on the whole, much more aggressive and bloodthirsty than he is.

I'd also note, as I think that someone else did before, that although the Crane would by default arguably have the most powerful courtier force and be Rokugan's greatest politicians, we saw in the Crane fiction what many considered to be the Crane Clan Champion getting played by a Scorpion.

I would argue, at least based on our very limited sample of 2, that maybe these initial fictions should mostly be viewed through the lens of the primary protagonist (Hotaru, Toturi), setting up that character more than they are strictly speaking setting up the Clan (although these characters will obviously have an outsized influence on their Clan). Hotaru is in love (or whatever) with Kachiko, but is probably going to have to deal with the Scorpion murdering her father. Toturi probably has no interest in further war with the Crane (and certainly not all out war), but could face mutiny in the ranks if he isn't seen as taking retribution for Arasou's death. What are those characters going to do next?

I agree with you, and of course being brash comes naturally if you are supposed to play the warmonger/militaristic archetype, it was the "idiotic" part that I had more problem with

And yup I understand all of that, the only problem I have with this fiction is how anti - climactic his death was, and Hotaru being the one who shines there, rather than any of the Lion(I was actually interested in Crane the most, and after her art was spoiled was super hyped but then the fiction came and made me feel like this is the character that I am "supposed" to like which funnily enough makes me hate them every time).

While doing a playful image search of Akodo Arasou, I stumbled upon a 4chan Traditional Gaming forum about this fiction. Oddly enough, some of our posts are even quoted, such as one of mine (the bit about Arasuo not being a good traction in the original story even though the Matsu are too proud to admit it). Anyway, someone made this image, full of win, that I think summaries some of the arguments I've been seening recently. Hahaha, here you are.


PS: Here's a link to the forum, if anyone feels brave enough to go down that rabbit hole.

1 hour ago, Gaffa said:

The Greeks invented deus ex machina, as they're the earliest playwrights we have examples of, and we know the term from them because in some (but not all) of their plays, there literally was a machine (basically a swing hoist) which would swing out and hover some poor schmuck actor way above the amphitheater from behind the stage to be the god who is going to solve the moral plot mess of the final act, usually by just telling everyone to go sod off, handing down some quick moralizing (which may or may not be ironic or sarcastic, depending on the playwright and the story of the play), and then that's it -- the play literally ends because a god shows up, tells everyone "You're all stupid. I'm ending this now. CURTAIN!", and then the audience would vote as to how well the play held up in the competition (Grecian plays were inevitably entries in a liturgical Olympics of a sort, competing for high prize at whatever temple was sponsoring the theater). There was no concern over "good" or "evil"; the point was that mortal man makes a mess of things, a god comes up and has to clean up their mess, and then, most importantly, everything ends. Deus ex machina ENDS the story. It is the last thing that happens, period. The characters do not continue. The god has finished their story for them (perhaps an Epilogue-style character might wander out to give one last whistful poem on the nature of gods, man, the play, and oh, yes, could you vote for this performance? Thank you.). It was a fictional convention among the Greeks just like the three-arc television plot is for us; an artificial structure that was culturally acceptable and gave the audience a sense of where they were in the play.

What deus ex machina means in use is that, out of nowhere, a character we have never seen shows up, solves everything pretty darn fast if not instantly, and then the story ENDS. If the story has a sudden reversal of fortune or twist of fate, that's not deus ex machina. That's irony, or a plot twist, or even a lazy or sadistic author. Hotaru shooting Arasou is in no way even remotely a deus ex machina; it's dramatic irony, it's a motivational moment for her, Toturi, and Tsuko; but it's not a character or force literally out of nowhere who appears, resolves the entire storyline, and then vanishes. The Lion are attacking the Crane. Casualties, even cruelly ironic ones, can happen in any battle. Arasou's death at the hands of a Crane was at all times possible, if unlikely due to his impressive military skill. A surprise ending is NOT deus ex machina. It's just a surprise.

The easiest way to think about it for L5R fiction is just ask yourself this: is this story laying groundwork for future storyline developments? Will Hotaru's killing of Arasou play a part in the ongoing story, in the development relationships between her, Toturi, and Tsuko? The answer is yes, right? Then it's definitely not deus ex machina, because the god from the machine ENDS the story. You do not lay down character motivational arcs with a deus ex machina; you annihilate them. The god ends the story, restores some sort of rough justice to the scene (or not, depending on how pissy the god feels), and that's it, story done. Instead, here we have a touchy political situation made worse both within the Lion and between the Lion and Crane, and characters we will see again who will presumably act motivated by this change.

You can like or dislike the "surprise" killing of Arasou in the story, but you can't call it a deus ex machina, because it's not. Hell, I'd just call it a bog-standard melodramatic hook to get Toturi and Tsuko into the story headfirst.

I said I wouldn't debate this further - but this is just plain false - Deus Ex Machina does NOT have to be helpful or good, it does not have to be at the end either. It also does not have to be some actual godly power.

It has to do with when a writer needs something to happen, but they haven't laid the groundwork for it to happen within the logic of the fiction, so they make it happen by simply penning it into the fiction anyway. Sometimes DEM are invoked specifically to draw the story out! Such as Gokou being resurrected by yet another supreme overlord to fight yet another supreme enemy who (for god knows what reason) we've never heard of before.

In this story the writer needed to showcase Toturi as a tactical person, and needed Arasou to die. I believe they also needed to leave Toshi Ranbo in Crane hands. To showcase Toturi as a tactical person they had him wait patiently before unleashing his ambush. This part of the story was alright - the problem is - this leaves the Lions gaining in the offensive. They needed Arasou to die and Toshi Ranbo to stay in Crane hands. Rather than working into the narrative some Daidoji bait / trap, they had Arasou commit suicide into 2 bow shots from Hotaru, who hasn't been mentioned in this story until this point.

1 minute ago, Samurai Fox said:

While doing a playful image search of Akodo Arasou, I stumbled upon a 4chan Traditional Gaming forum about this fiction. Oddly enough, some of our posts are even quoted, such as one of mine (the bit about Arasuo not being a good traction in the original story even though the Matsu are too proud to admit it). Anyway, someone made this image, full of win, that I think summaries some of the arguments I've been seening recently. Hahaha, here you are.

Wait what, are we in some kind of matrix, fully convinced that it is reality, and there is a team of 4chan forum members tracking our every move? xd

"Turns out if you invest skill points into dueling you become an amazing archer"

Well, they do both key off of Reflexes...

28 minutes ago, Samurai Fox said:

While doing a playful image search of Akodo Arasou, I stumbled upon a 4chan Traditional Gaming forum about this fiction. Oddly enough, some of our posts are even quoted, such as one of mine (the bit about Arasuo not being a good traction in the original story even though the Matsu are too proud to admit it). Anyway, someone made this image, full of win, that I think summaries some of the arguments I've been seening recently. Hahaha, here you are.


PS: Here's a link to the forum, if anyone feels brave enough to go down that rabbit hole.

brillant

It's the 'Mantis still not a clan' that sells it for me.

does that make me a bad person?

12 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I said I wouldn't debate this further - but this is just plain false - Deus Ex Machina does NOT have to be helpful or good, it does not have to be at the end either. It also does not have to be some actual godly power.

I'm sorry, but in this case you are wrong. The literal deus ex machina is the god from the machine which was used to end a certain subtype of plays in Greek theatre. That is, literally, the origin and meaning of the term; why else do you think we call it the god from the machine? The god appears, ends the plot, perhaps hands out some resolution to some plot threads, ends the play, story over.

Obviously versions of this technique which aren't tied to religious drama the way the Greeks were don't have to use a literal god (or a literal machine to deposit the actor mid-air above the audience), which is why the modern usage of the term allows for any sort of character or event which had basically no involvement in the plot before they appear, but has sufficient power (social, physical, magical, position of authority, an abundance of clever wit, whatever fits the story and the genre) to resolve the plot in a stupidly short amount of time, and because of that, the story ends. I wouldn't be surprised that among his many lost plays Aristophanes (the David Letterman of Greek drama) probably had a take down or satire of the deus ex machina (he managed to mock nearly every other theatrical standard, actor, fellow playwrights, and theaters of his contemporaries in the plays we have left).

The modern use of deus ex machina requires an agent or character of sufficient power, ability, or status to end a plot of any amount of complexity basically at will, and usually one who has had no active involvement or perhaps even mention until they enter the story, and pretty soon after they enter the story, they do their purpose -- which is to resolve all the plot lines, for good or ill. That being said, the deus ex machina can be something or someone who is known in the story for a long time, and their appearance in the story just brings all the plot threads to a crashing halt; fans of door-stopping British science fiction might recognize the titular Naked God from Peter Hamilton's Reality Dysfunction 6-novel series as just such a deus ex machina, to give one random modern example from outside of theatre (it's also a particularly trite and boring god in this case).

But the point of the technique is, indeed, that the god from the machine ends the plot -- because that is why they have so much power in their setting. After them, the story ends. Modern usage can allow any number of denouements and epilogues (something the Greeks didn't do, at least in the plays we still have around), because modern audiences like seeing closure. In fact, our training to desire closure is one reason why deus ex machina is considered a shoddy and lazy form of plot resolution nowadays; it's not, really, it's just as valid as other methods, it's just not what our culture wants from our fiction. We like seeing an author clever enough to create a complex plot tangle show off their skill in resolving it in equally clever ways; pulling a figurative god in to nuke it from orbit annoys us.

If the "god" is well-known or heavily involved in the story before they end the plot, then it's not a deus ex machina, because their involvement in the plot is reasonably expected, which means it's not a surprise if they get sufficiently annoyed, involved, or intrigued to end the plot; they're a plot point, in that case. If the "god" has insufficient power, standing, cash, or whatever the plot needs to be resolved easily, then they're not a deus ex machina because they can't resolve the plot threads, and instead are probably are a joke, ironic, a distraction, a lazy author, or a contractual obligation. If the "god" doesn't end the plot, then they're not a deus ex machina, they're just an absurdly powerful character now mucking about in the storyline whom the author hopefully has some good idea of what to do with them.

I'll just add that there seems to be an assumption that deus ex machina is a "contrivance", or a sign of the writer not knowing where to take the story. A true deus ex machina is not that, which is the whole point of being pretty strict in your use of the term and its definition. The Greeks used deus ex machina for a very clear and potent point -- to end the production, to appeal to the gods to whom their theatre was in tribute to, to give a poetic sermon about the foibles of man. It was not something they threw in because they didn't know what to do with the play; the playwrights knew darn well the play would end with a deus ex machina when they decided to use it. And that was a totally appropriate and satisfying end in their culture to a play; not all their plays (plenty of Greek plays end more conventionally to a modern audience), but enough that the Romans picked it up and gave the practice the term we still use today.

If the surprise appearance of anyone in modern fiction seems contrived, it's not a deus ex machina; stories that bring forth the god from the machine want to do so. Sudden random events, such as Hotaru getting lucky in this story, aren't them as well, because that actually served to *advance* the plot: Toturi is now an unwilling Clan Champion, Hotaru seems apologetic, Tsuko is a bit more murderous than usual. Deus ex machina, by comparison, takes all plot threads and erases them. Their purpose is to end the story. The machine was not cranked out over the theatre for every appearance of a god (it appears that more "mundane" uses of gods, nymphs, muses, and other various chorus members or observers to a plot occasionally wandered on top of the stone arch frame if they needed to look impressive); the machine carried the god that ends the world of the play. It was the sign to the contemporary audience of "OK, looks like they managed to piss off Heaven. Time to hear how good this final speech is." (The deus ex machina traditionally got one of the better speeches in the play, and they were usually among the most famous scenes of a production in contemporary reports of going to the theatre.)

48 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

That being said, the deus ex machina can be something or someone who is known in the story for a long time, and their appearance in the story just brings all the plot threads to a crashing halt; fans of door-stopping British science fiction might recognize the titular Naked God from Peter Hamilton's Reality Dysfunction 6-novel series as just such a deus ex machina, to give one random modern example from outside of theatre (it's also a particularly trite and boring god in this case).

I was really quite annoyed by that. The various plot strands were approaching their conclusions, some successful, some not so much and then one person's actions make the entirety of the rest of the cast meaningless. It was disappointing.

Gaffa is 100% right as far as the literal meaning goes, however in common parlance a wider definition of Deus Ex Machina seems to be accepted (see for example here). Regardless, I think the point isn't truly whether or not Hotaru shooting Arasou to death is DEM or not: the point is whether that is a clever and credible solution. In my opinion, it clearly isn't and, from what Gaffa says, I am under the impression s/he thinks the same. So you guys might actually be arguing about a definition while agreeing on the core matter.

As for the whole of the novel, if truth be told I am very disappointed (by this and the Crane one as well). It's not written amazingly well, but it's not poor either; the main problem I have are the shallow characters. I suspect this might be due more to the very little space at the writer's disposal than due to their lack of skill, since it would take a true master to conjure a good story out of nothing with all that stuff happening at once (I'm looking at the Lion one in particular). The main point for me is that I expected FFG to dedicate more space to introducing us to the setting, possibly with a summary of the story of Rokugan and the core aspects of each Great Clan, before throwing us in the middle of the action with these bi-weekly 10-pages long fictions.

My hopes were maybe too high after hearing L5R was so big on the story, so that's why I might be disappointed. Luckily for me my main interest is in the game mechanics, so if it turns out the story will indeed be underveloped I won't quit the game, but I'd still prefer for the game to have a rich narrative aspect backing it.

10 minutes ago, Eu8L1ch said:

Regardless, I think the point isn't truly whether or not Hotaru shooting Arasou to death is DEM or not: the point is whether that is a clever and credible solution.

I think it could have been, with some more build-up from both sides and smart storytelling. Say, instead of Toturi being SAD at the end, we could have had a brotherly bonding scene between Arasou and Toturi at the beginning that would have also touched Hotaru's situation. Some more focus on the actual killing between Arasou and Hotaru would have been also good, say, instead of Toturi pondering about how Hotaru looked SAD.

10 minutes ago, Eu8L1ch said:

As for the whole of the novel, if truth be told I am very disappointed (by this and the Crane one as well). It's not written amazingly well, but it's not poor either; the main problem I have are the shallow characters. I suspect this might be due more to the very little space at the writer's disposal than due to their lack of skill, since it would take a true master to conjure a good story out of nothing with all that stuff happening at once (I'm looking at the Lion one in particular). The main point for me is that I expected FFG to dedicate more space to introducing us to the setting, possibly with a summary of the story of Rokugan and the core aspects of each Great Clan, before throwing us in the middle of the action with these bi-weekly 10-pages long fictions.

I agree that longer fictions would have been better introductions to the setting, but they were probably worried they'd scare prospective players off if they made them read too much.

Also, it's still early. They might yet write an overview. And if they don't... well, hopefully there will be RPG books coming at some point in the future that will provide that and more.

2 hours ago, Samurai Fox said:

While doing a playful image search of Akodo Arasou, I stumbled upon a 4chan Traditional Gaming forum about this fiction. Oddly enough, some of our posts are even quoted, such as one of mine (the bit about Arasuo not being a good traction in the original story even though the Matsu are too proud to admit it). Anyway, someone made this image, full of win, that I think summaries some of the arguments I've been seening recently. Hahaha, here you are.


PS: Here's a link to the forum, if anyone feels brave enough to go down that rabbit hole.

Credits go to Kakita Onimaru. Also responsible for these:

18 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I think it could have been, with some more build-up from both sides and smart storytelling.

Agreed, it could have been. You make good points: no build-up and not enough focus.

21 minutes ago, Fumi said:

I agree that longer fictions would have been better introductions to the setting, but they were probably worried they'd scare prospective players off if they made them read too much.

Also, it's still early. They might yet write an overview. And if they don't... well, hopefully there will be RPG books coming at some point in the future that will provide that and more.

Hum, players who don't care about story simply don't read it IME, whereas those who care are seldom scared by *too much* story. We should also consider that it would be possible to strike a middle ground between a lot of story and what we have now.

It's true that it's still early, and that is in fact my only hope. However they stated (in the last Live IIRC) that the Core set will have a page for each of the Clans as an introduction. My suspicion is that they might consider themselves done just with that, which wouldn't exactly please me. But then I have to admit I am a hard man to please.

1 minute ago, Eu8L1ch said:

Agreed, it could have been. You make good points: no build-up and not enough focus.

Hum, players who don't care about story simply don't read it IME, whereas those who care are seldom scared by *too much* story. We should also consider that it would be possible to strike a middle ground between a lot of story and what we have now.

It's true that it's still early, and that is in fact my only hope. However they stated (in the last Live IIRC) that the Core set will have a page for each of the Clans as an introduction. My suspicion is that they might consider themselves done just with that, which wouldn't exactly please me. But then I have to admit I am a hard man to please.

I expect/hope when the plot starts actually going forward things will pick up.

All this expository 'getting to know you' stuff probably has the writers pretty constrained. Especially with only 4k words to use

56 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

All this expository 'getting to know you' stuff probably has the writers pretty constrained. Especially with only 4k words to use

Ah, this could be pretty fun, actually, if you wrap a good story around it. Like Hotaru getting a "who-is-who-and-why" class from Shizue with Kachiko sitting on the side. basically, the story is about Shizue giving EXPOSITION with Kachiko's witty remarks coming from the sideline and Hotaru commenting all the stuff in herself. This way, you can build up Hotaru's character through her thoughts about the Empire, and show some Shizue and Kachiko too. Bonus points if Hotaru's thoughts are hilarious and completely off the mark. Unlock the secret achievement if Kachiko constantly interrupts Shizue with real history/state of affairs, and the story ends with the two almost getting into a fight.

1 hour ago, Eu8L1ch said:

Agreed, it could have been. You make good points: no build-up and not enough focus.

Hum, players who don't care about story simply don't read it IME, whereas those who care are seldom scared by *too much* story. We should also consider that it would be possible to strike a middle ground between a lot of story and what we have now.

It's true that it's still early, and that is in fact my only hope. However they stated (in the last Live IIRC) that the Core set will have a page for each of the Clans as an introduction. My suspicion is that they might consider themselves done just with that, which wouldn't exactly please me. But then I have to admit I am a hard man to please.

they've also said they do plan on keep doing fictions on the website after release.

I do not understand why people think Hotaru shooting Arasou to death is not credible. The only thing not credible about it is that it was Hotaru specifically.

A general fighting like Arasou is very likely going to get killed. If it wasn't arrows, it would have been something else. It doesn't matter how awesome your technique is unless we are in Wuxia land: being recognizable plus being in front is super super dangerous.

Probably the best historical example of a guy who fought like this we have is Alexander the Great, who, among other things, personally fought with and killed members of the Persian command at the battle of Granicus, and at a siege later in his career led the storming of a wall and was trapped inside with one other soldier fighting against the whole garrison until reinforcements came to his rescue.

Alexander got lucky, and in most of his battles he probably didn't have to do all that much fighting because of his elite bodyguard companions, who fought with him and protected him. More likely is Epaminondas or Julian the Apostate, both of whom fought personally and were killed after a very short military career.

What happened to Arasou is entirely reasonable and expected given his personality as portrayed: he is a fearsome and confident individual fighter who leads from the front, and runs ahead of his bodyguards (if he has any) to personally engage with enemy soldiers. Therefore, he is going to get killed, and he does.

Oh, while we are at it, what happened to Arasou is exactly what happened to King Harold at the battle of Hastings, except, of course, it wasn't William the Conqueror who shot him.

I think there's perhaps an issue of expectation with these fictions. It appears that some, not all, of the readers are expecting full, developed stories from what amounts to a character prologue. I've seen folks take fault with a lack of emotional resonance from Arasou's death, feeling that they needed further connection with the character for there to be some huge payoff. That misses the point, in my opinion. When the stage is being set, events that may be major in the life of a character may not get the full emotional gravity that implies because they are significant to the construction of the story to come, if not integral to its emotional stakes or resolution. The focus is on a story parallel to the one being told, but isn't actually what is being written about.

Don't get me wrong, I would love there to be more fiction tear into, but to argue that they just needed to add a scene here or a scene there to somehow increase payoff seems inherently cyclical. By adding another scene you add more questions, which in turn might warrant more scenes. Next thing you know, the entire character's life could well be written out, if these desires aren't tempered.

Ultimately, as a new player, I'm satisfied by these introductions. They give me enough to make me excited for the story to come, set the scene, and even give me some homework if I want to research some alluded to personalities. I don't expect them to fill in all the blanks, because a story is as much what it omits and leaves to the audience as it is what is written.

It's a difficult balance to strike at this moment for the writers.

They have to give an impression what the Clan in question is about, introduce a number of characters, develop the main POV character of that clan a bit deeper, give some exposition about the state of the Empire AND give the main characters a relationship with each other.

It all needs more wordcount to properly develop more depth, but we've gotten plenty of elements already.

From the Crane fiction: Hotaru is inexperienced, has issues with her father, who is dead and was the Emerald Champion, is prone to rash actions, is in a relationship with Kachiko, is married, has a more experienced courtier sister, is trained by Toshimoko and her Clan suffers from food shortages.

From the Lion fiction: Toturi is inexperienced, overthinks and is too cautious, was retired as a monk but recalled, Lion and Crane are as close to war as allowed, has a friendship with Hotaru, but she just killed the younger and overconfident brother he loved and who was the Lion champion before him, is hated by the overly aggressive Matsu Tsuko, betrothed of his brother and from his handling of her he doesn't seem a people person and finally a whole bunch of Lions were name dropped.

I am without a doubt forgetting stuff, but that is already a huge infodump which doesn't leave much room to go into detail. What I do like however is that FFG is coming through on the promise to focus the story more on actual samurai drama and interpersonal relationships.

14 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

Ultimately, as a new player, I'm satisfied by these introductions. They give me enough to make me excited for the story to come, set the scene, and even give me some homework if I want to research some alluded to personalities. I don't expect them to fill in all the blanks, because a story is as much what it omits and leaves to the audience as it is what is written.

This is great to hear. The perspective of a new player who doesn't necessarily know where things are heading is something I'm missing, so it's great that they're going over well. I've thought both fictions so far were good, but wanted more, so I wind up carping on the parts I didn't like. That high level view, that these are actual introductions for many new players (I hope it's many, anyway...) is a good reminder. Thanks.

41 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

A general fighting like Arasou is very likely going to get killed. If it wasn't arrows, it would have been something else. It doesn't matter how awesome your technique is unless we are in Wuxia land: being recognizable plus being in front is super super dangerous.

Was it typical in feudal Japan for commanders and high ranking nobles in general to fight to the death? Because I would say that death of a high noble on European battlefield is a rare occasion.

35 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

A general fighting like Arasou is very likely going to get killed. If it wasn't arrows, it would have been something else. It doesn't matter how awesome your technique is unless we are in Wuxia land

Well, we are supposedly very close to Wuxia Land, the fic even makes a point of it by having the main characters instagib the nameless opponents with impunity.