2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

As someone that goes to a western archery club, there are two ways of hitting the target that are 'taught' at it:

1. 'Instinctual' - you point yourself at the target and learn how to make very consistent shots, knowing where your arrow is going to go based on how you were holding it and yourself when you release.
2. 'Aimed' - you use part of the bow (or arrow tip) to sight against the target, probably with some sort of offset.

To me, it sounds like the Unicorn use 2, whereas everyone else uses 1. The Wasp clan still use 1, but are just better at it, and have higher tech bows.

this my understanding as well.

1 hour ago, KerenRhys said:

Can I ask what was your opinion of the Crane story, then?

Because Kachiko (and so the Scorpion) stole as much of the show then as Hotaru did here and, if I listen to people here (which I fortunatly don't), the depiction of Hotaru was awful then (either too much OP or totally incompetent according to different people) on top of it.

It's not targeted to you, but the old L5R story forum was a cesspool with all the complaints on every character and their every actions. It would be nice if this one didn't follow the same path.

You have too much hope for humanity!

1 hour ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Except that the normal use of a bow in Rokugan wouldn't allow for sniping, its more pull,release,pull release less aiming. the Wasp aim and that's why they are the best archers. If Generals were worried about this in Rokugan they wouldn't run around with Banners declaring who they are, logical what you say makes sense. you would think they would be more generals assasinated from range since they all have giant banners declaring who they are.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If there is less generals killed by arrows in Rokugan, it is because they are not idiots that put themselves in the archer's range. Stating that killing an enemy general with a ranged weapon is somehow "dishonorable" is absolutely ridiculous...

3 minutes ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

If there is less generals killed by arrows in Rokugan, it is because they are not idiots that put themselves in the archer's range.

I would like to think that the real reason is that rokugani generals tend to either cut arrows out of the air, catch them on the fly, or do some sort of equally bad*ss stuff that requires insane (or at least equally bad*ss) feats of archery to get them. With the added complication of willow leaf arrows not faring too well against armor while armor piercing arrows causing too little actual damage for too much fuss.

4 hours ago, RandomJC said:

More and more I realize people don't know what deus ex machina means in reference to a stories climax.

More and more I think I specifically used it absolutely correctly - They didn't want to construct a good story to push Toturi into the role of clan champion, so they had a short story where they unceremoniously killed off the existing champion in a trivial battle. This short story is basically: Arasou and Tsuko are brash, none of the lion leadership can properly command an army. Toturi displays "tactical prowess" by recommending inaction when there is a battle already in progress. Oh look Crane killed Arasou so now Toturi is the leader.

44 minutes ago, shosuko said:

More and more I think I specifically used it absolutely correctly - They didn't want to construct a good story to push Toturi into the role of clan champion, so they had a short story where they unceremoniously killed off the existing champion in a trivial battle. This short story is basically: Arasou and Tsuko are brash, none of the lion leadership can properly command an army. Toturi displays "tactical prowess" by recommending inaction when there is a battle already in progress. Oh look Crane killed Arasou so now Toturi is the leader.

That is in no way what Deus Ex Machina means.

To clarify: You can think the story was poor, but the story wasn't written into a corner, it was building up quite obviously to Arasou's death, and even the manner of his death is consistent with the setting and characters within it.

You can not like Hotaru, you can not like the story. You can call it bad. BUT nothing that happens is a Deus Ex Machina.

3 hours ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Except that the normal use of a bow in Rokugan wouldn't allow for sniping, its more pull,release,pull release less aiming. the Wasp aim and that's why they are the best archers. If Generals were worried about this in Rokugan they wouldn't run around with Banners declaring who they are, logical what you say makes sense. you would think they would be more generals assasinated from range since they all have giant banners declaring who they are.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

I would like to think that the real reason is that rokugani generals tend to either cut arrows out of the air, catch them on the fly, or do some sort of equally bad*ss stuff that requires insane (or at least equally bad*ss) feats of archery to get them. With the added complication of willow leaf arrows not faring too well against armor while armor piercing arrows causing too little actual damage for too much fuss.

The reality is actually this: Anyone who is rich / powerful enough to afford quality armor is essentially immune to arrows. Arrows shot at a distance are going to be arcing downward, and the armor perfectly protects from arrows falling in this way. When a soldier in full Japanese style armor gets closer they will lower their head, narrowing their face to a slit that makes it VERY difficult to hit, and that is the only target you could expect to get a kill with. On that note - they are basically immune to swords too. It would take a polearm or bashing weapon to make any real damage when fully armored.

Just like with the European armor. That's why you don't have important persons killed by an arrow. With the exception of arrow in the face (Henry Hotspur comes to mind. And Akodo Arasou ). And that's also why katana is not a battlefield weapon - it is not suited to overcome armor.

But sadly, armor is always (in books, movies etc.) treated more like a uniform or clothing than actual protection.

1 hour ago, RandomJC said:

That is in no way what Deus Ex Machina means.

To clarify: You can think the story was poor, but the story wasn't written into a corner, it was building up quite obviously to Arasou's death, and even the manner of his death is consistent with the setting and characters within it.

Just to point out in turn, that while your definition of deus ex machina is one I've heard before, there are other, looser definitions. For example, "an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." I think this qualifies - it was a contrived plot device, and came out of nowhere, since the Lion were on top and charging at the time. While I think it was foolish to have the Crane champion have to be the one taking the shot, it is also true that her presence had not previously been hinted at (and, of course, it's just plain dumb to think any schmuck could kill a champion, the arrow clearly must be fired by someone of equal social status.)

OK, my snide asides there make my complaint with the story pretty clear They'd foreshadowed Arasou's death clearly enough, especially for old-timers who "knew" it was coming (air quotes because it's always possible they'll change details of the story.) To me, the deus ex part was not overdone, wasn't terribly bad, but I also think it does qualify. I dislike the idea that the champions are the primary actors in their clans - and I'm hoping the current overkill is just to establish them in the initial fiction.

1 hour ago, RandomJC said:

That is in no way what Deus Ex Machina means.

To clarify: You can think the story was poor, but the story wasn't written into a corner, it was building up quite obviously to Arasou's death, and even the manner of his death is consistent with the setting and characters within it.

You can not like Hotaru, you can not like the story. You can call it bad. BUT nothing that happens is a Deus Ex Machina.

In this case the situation is that Toturi needs to rise to power. Rather than building a scenario which would actually merit the death of arguably the highest rank general in all of Rokugan they have Hotaru show up, fire 2 arrows, and it's done. Stray arrows don't kill generals, as my post above displays - armor is very effective and repelling arrows. Generals, especially of the level of Arasou, would be neigh invulnerable to any arrows at range. At 300 yards the shot would certainly be losing power too, and the arc would be quite pronounced making it more likely to become a glancing strike rather than directing the force of the shot into the armor.

Were there no other arrows on the battlefield? Do we really think that other people simply didn't try aiming for Arasou? Did it describe Arasou having damaged armor, or taking his armor off? Was it mentioned that Arasou was horrifically bad at combat to the point that he would actually look up to let an arrow hit him in the face? No. This was used to achieve the writers ends when they could not properly conceive of a situation that would lead to their desired outcome.

It would have been more satisfying if Hoturu had just dueled him and cut him down like the rabid dog he was.

19 minutes ago, agarrett said:

Just to point out in turn, that while your definition of deus ex machina is one I've heard before, there are other, looser definitions. For example, "an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." I think this qualifies - it was a contrived plot device, and came out of nowhere, since the Lion were on top and charging at the time. While I think it was foolish to have the Crane champion have to be the one taking the shot, it is also true that her presence had not previously been hinted at (and, of course, it's just plain dumb to think any schmuck could kill a champion, the arrow clearly must be fired by someone of equal social status.)

OK, my snide asides there make my complaint with the story pretty clear They'd foreshadowed Arasou's death clearly enough, especially for old-timers who "knew" it was coming (air quotes because it's always possible they'll change details of the story.) To me, the deus ex part was not overdone, wasn't terribly bad, but I also think it does qualify. I dislike the idea that the champions are the primary actors in their clans - and I'm hoping the current overkill is just to establish them in the initial fiction.

16 minutes ago, shosuko said:

de·us ex ma·chi·na

ˌdāəs ˌeks ˈmäkənə,ˌdāəs ˌeks ˈmäakənə/

noun

1. an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

In this case the situation is that Toturi needs to rise to power. Rather than building a scenario which would actually merit the death of arguably the highest rank general in all of Rokugan they have Hotaru show up, fire 2 arrows, and it's done. Stray arrows don't kill generals, as my post above displays - armor is very effective and repelling arrows. Generals, especially of the level of Arasou, would be neigh invulnerable to any arrows at range. At 300 yards the shot would certainly be losing power too, and the arc would be quite pronounced making it more likely to become a glancing strike rather than actually direct the force of the shot into the armor.

Were there no other arrows on the battlefield? Do we really think that other people simply didn't try aiming for Arasou? Did it describe Arasou having damaged armor, or taking his armor off? Was it mentioned that Arasou was horrifically bad at combat to the point that he would actually look up to let an arrow hit him in the face? No. This was used to achieve the writers ends when they could not properly conceive of a situation that would lead to their desired outcome.

Neither of you have described Deus Ex Machina.

Mostly because you're actually causing the death of the general "Saving a hopeless situation". The situation in that story is not saved by the death of Arasou.

Shosuko specifically. You're arguing lack of realism in this fictional setting. A lack of realism isn't the same as deus ex machina. it isn't realistic isn't the same as unexpected power or event. It isn't realistic for an arrow to kill him is not deus ex machina. Why? We have an archer. Archer fires arrow. Nothing here is unexpected. It isn't realistic, but it isn't unexpected either. Nor is Hotaru's presence that surprising, considering the importance placed on the province in the previous clan fiction. you're also confusing the point of the story with the situation. the situation is the siege of Toshi Ranbo. Hotaru killing Asano does not "Save" that situation.

To agerrett. Two things, like before, you ignore the "saving a hopeless situation". But you also make it sound like it's completely illogical for the Clan champion to be at a location that is hotly contested while the opposing clan champion is there.

I think it is quite obvious the point of this fiction is to have Arasou killed, and to push Toturi into power as clan champion. Just as the point of the Crane story was to show that Hotaru is capable both in combat, and in conversation. These stories are told to set the stage - and there are certainly going to be agendas the stories must fulfill.

Deus Ex Machina aren't always magical good things either. They exist in tragedies, causing calamity for no reason, and not based on logic from within the story. In this setting - we have a city that has been under siege, and a battle is currently being fought surrounding it. Hotaru doesn't arrive on the scene, she steps out from inside the castle. There was no mention of her being there defending, but there she is, for some reason... Hotaru hasn't been showcased as an accomplished archer or general, but I guess we can just say Clan Champions are the most well trained people ever and forget that Arasou was also a Clan Champion, experienced in leading troops in battle, and it's easier to NOT die from an arrow shot at 300 yards than it is to make that dream shot. She fires 2 shots with her arrow and that's it... Story over. Might as well have the eagles show up to fly her and Toturi on to their next adventure.

It sounds like you think there is some specific standard to be a DEM. It simply means the situation was contrived to meet the desired ending without any logical narrative leading to that point. It's the crux of a bad story when we need to tell the ending as we want it, even though the story doesn't properly support it.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I would like to think that the real reason is that rokugani generals tend to either cut arrows out of the air, catch them on the fly, or do some sort of equally bad*ss stuff that requires insane (or at least equally bad*ss) feats of archery to get them. With the added complication of willow leaf arrows not faring too well against armor while armor piercing arrows causing too little actual damage for too much fuss.

You may be over- thinking, but its in cool directions

I think a great POV of this would be to reverse the situation.

Crane city is being held under siege. The soldiers have been able to open combat on the field in an attempt to break the siege. They find their moment, and rush into the enemy army and set alight the siege implements. At that moment Toturi flanks them in an ambush devastating their assault, causing them to retreat into the city. Hotaru steps foward, fires 2 shots killing the general of the Lion army as they began their charge. It was a long shot, but she got him straight through the eye - PS the Lion all decided to retreat after this.

27 minutes ago, Kakita Katai said:

It would have been more satisfying if Hoturu had just dueled him and cut him down like the rabid dog he was.

Yes

think of what the complaints would have been like if THAT had happened

He had to die. It was in the story. It was just the question how they were going to do it this time. Would you prefer the way it was original? The Daidoji ambush him and kill him and his entire army.

13 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I think it is quite obvious the point of this fiction is to have Arasou killed, and to push Toturi into power as clan champion. Just as the point of the Crane story was to show that Hotaru is capable both in combat, and in conversation. These stories are told to set the stage - and there are certainly going to be agendas the stories must fulfill.

Deus Ex Machina aren't always magical good things either. They exist in tragedies, causing calamity for no reason, and not based on logic from within the story. In this setting - we have a city that has been under siege, and a battle is currently being fought surrounding it. Hotaru doesn't arrive on the scene, she steps out from inside the castle. There was no mention of her being there defending, but there she is, for some reason... Hotaru hasn't been showcased as an accomplished archer or general, but I guess we can just say Clan Champions are the most well trained people ever and forget that Arasou was also a Clan Champion, experienced in leading troops in battle, and it's easier to NOT die from an arrow shot at 300 yards than it is to make that dream shot. She fires 2 shots with her arrow and that's it... Story over. Might as well have the eagles show up to fly her and Toturi on to their next adventure.

It sounds like you think there is some specific standard to be a DEM. It simply means the situation was contrived to meet the desired ending without any logical narrative leading to that point. It's the crux of a bad story when we need to tell the ending as we want it, even though the story doesn't properly support it.

Yes. Yes they are. That is literally the point of Deus ex Machina in fiction. Deus ex Machina is exactly about good things happening. Why apart of the definition is about "saving a seemingly hopeless situation". It serves a very specific function. There is no legitimate definition or critique that sites negative effects do to Deus Ex Machina, it is used explicitly to save the heroes of the story.

You can't just rewrite the definition of words and narrative devices to fit your story.

And again it isn't outside the logical narrative for Hotaru to be a hotly contested place by the crane and the lion when the other clan champion is there. Just because she is not stated to be there does not make it contrived for her to be there.

21 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Yes

think of what the complaints would have been like if THAT had happened

I'm guessing they would focus around the fact that Arasou had no reason to agree to the duel and the unexplained presence of Hotaru at Toshi Ranbo.

I still think the duel could be the better choice since that is what the Crane are good at (though Hotaru's card doesn't have Duelist ). Maybe they could have handled it in a way that didn't make it look to unrealistic.

It isn't worth arguing over that much, but it is not a Deus ex Machina. Deus Ex Machina really refers to something coming out of nowhere that makes the story resolve in the way that the audience wants but which doesn't make sense. It comes from plays where literally at the end a God would come and fix everything. It isn't the same as something unlikely but foreshadowed. A deus ex machina requires that there be a thing that is clearly going to happen that the plot has been building towards, usually a bad fate for the protagonists, but which would be unsatisfying, and so something abruptly makes it not happen from nowhere.

Arasou being killed by an arrow is not a deus ex machina for a whole lot of reasons, but probably the main one is that even if it is unlikely for him to be killed in the battle, it makes sense and is understandable, because people die in battles through bad luck or various reasons. Also, there wasn't really a plot outcome that was pretty much determined before all of a sudden the arrow came and changed it.

39 minutes ago, Kakita Katai said:

It would have been more satisfying if Hoturu Tsuko had just dueled him and cut him down hacked Hotaru to pieces like the rabid dog he was frenzied Lioness she is because good villains need street cred.

*ahem* Fixed it...

ANYway.

Safe to say we're stuck with Hotaru in at least the immediate future, but take heart Lion fans, you've hopefully had your last Spinal Tap drummer Clan Champ for a while.

9 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

It isn't worth arguing over that much, but it is not a Deus ex Machina. Deus Ex Machina really refers to something coming out of nowhere that makes the story resolve in the way that the audience wants but which doesn't make sense. It comes from plays where literally at the end a God would come and fix everything. It isn't the same as something unlikely but foreshadowed. A deus ex machina requires that there be a thing that is clearly going to happen that the plot has been building towards, usually a bad fate for the protagonists, but which would be unsatisfying, and so something abruptly makes it not happen from nowhere.

Arasou being killed by an arrow is not a deus ex machina for a whole lot of reasons, but probably the main one is that even if it is unlikely for him to be killed in the battle, it makes sense and is understandable, because people die in battles through bad luck or various reasons. Also, there wasn't really a plot outcome that was pretty much determined before all of a sudden the arrow came and changed it.

A Deus Ex Machina is NOT specifically good - it is just not usually criticized when it is bad because we expect bad things to happen. A contrived occurrence to adjust a story to it's desired conclusion is the same whether it is "good" or "bad."

The situation at hand had the garrison of the city drawn out, and ambushed by Toturi, routing the troops and restoring momentum to the Lion. Rather than allow the Lion to win, Hotaru shows up, fires 2 arrows, and the Lion lose the battle...

This is a plot device used to stop the Lion, and kill Arasou. Hotaru was not mentioned as being there - last we heard she was in Otosan Uchi and was leaving to Toshi Ranbo. It didn't mention her arriving, it just had her step out and fire 2 shots. That's it. She didn't have any tactical ploys to counter the Lion offensive, or restore her routed garrison to hold the city... After Arasou is killed the Lion simply stop.

Just now, shosuko said:

A Deus Ex Machina is NOT specifically good - it is just not usually criticized when it is bad because we expect bad things to happen. A contrived occurrence to adjust a story to it's desired conclusion is the same whether it is "good" or "bad."

The situation at hand had the garrison of the city drawn out, and ambushed by Toturi, routing the troops and restoring momentum to the Lion. Rather than allow the Lion to win, Hotaru shows up, fires 2 arrows, and the Lion lose the battle...

This is a plot device used to stop the Lion, and kill Arasou. Hotaru was not mentioned as being there - last we heard she was in Otosan Uchi and was leaving to Toshi Ranbo. It didn't mention her arriving, it just had her step out and fire 2 shots. That's it. She didn't have any tactical ploys to counter the Lion offensive, or restore her routed garrison to hold the city... After Arasou is killed the Lion simply stop.

Yes it is! It is specifically good. There is a reason Diablous Ex Machina exists. It is the negative opposite.

4 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Yes it is! It is specifically good. There is a reason Diablous Ex Machina exists. It is the negative opposite.

No it isn't - because we don't have "good" and "evil" here. We simply have two armies fighting. Just because we don't have "good" or "evil" doesn't mean we don't have plot devices created to derive our desired story outcome from a narrative that doesn't support it. Deus Ex Machina isn't "good gods intervene" as the greek gods weren't always good, and tragedies were victims of DEM to cause the downfall of the heroes even after they've achieved victory.

Just now, shosuko said:

No it isn't - because we don't have "good" and "evil" here. We simply have two armies fighting. Just because we don't have "good" or "evil" doesn't mean we don't have plot devices created to derive our desired story outcome from a narrative that doesn't support it.

Yes it is. You're just rewriting the definition to support you're misusing of it. not all plot devices are Deus ex machina. You are literally just describing a plot device. Deus Ex Machina is a very specific kind of plot device meant to have positive ramifications that are impossible to happen naturally for the protagonists for the story. It isn't just any kind of contrived plot device.

4 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Yes it is. You're just rewriting the definition to support you're misusing of it. not all plot devices are Deus ex machina. You are literally just describing a plot device. Deus Ex Machina is a very specific kind of plot device meant to have positive ramifications that are impossible to happen naturally for the protagonists for the story. It isn't just any kind of contrived plot device.

You don't think it comes out of left field that an experienced field general, following an ambush that routes the garrison, is then killed and the entire attacking army halted by 2 arrows shot by a person who simply stepped out for that scene? Sure, you think what you want - I'm done arguing about this. Hotaru is Arrows from the Woods in this scene. She wasn't there before, suddenly she is, 2 simple shots, no conflict or effort, BAM dead battle over, Toturi is champion.

Sure - that's not DEM... whatever you say buddy.

Also - I hold that "good" and "evil" are irrelevant as we have 2 sides which are neither good or evil - that doesn't mean DEM doesn't happen.