16 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

More and more I realize people don't know what deus ex machina means in reference to a stories climax.

If everyone could cut right to the heart of things, there would not be any of that fun back and forth.

22 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

More and more I realize people don't know what deus ex machina means in reference to a stories climax.

So now we will be defending lazy plot devices?

1 minute ago, BordOne said:

So now we will be defending lazy plot devices?

sounds like a plan.

On 11.6.2017 at 5:43 AM, Samurai Fox said:

I'm liking this...ugh, this also means Hotaru's got two reasons to call Kachiko "Mommy" now.

In these kind of relationship, Hotaru would call Kachiko: Onee-sama.

Not that this would make things any better. >_>

8 minutes ago, Yandia said:

In these kind of relationship, Hotaru would call Kachiko: Onee-sama.

Not that this would make things any better. >_>

I don't need these kinds of thoughts this early in morning

36 minutes ago, BordOne said:

So now we will be defending lazy plot devices?

I'm always a fan of calling things what they are.

I can't help it if people's imaginations can't fathom the logical reason a clan champion would be at a hotly contested property being attacked by another clan champion.

Like I said. People don't know what Deus ex Machina means.

5 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm always a fan of calling things what they are.

I can't help it if people's imaginations can't fathom the logical reason a clan champion would be at a hotly contested property being attacked by another clan champion.

Like I said. People don't know what Deus ex Machina means.

If it had been Hida who turned up and stopped the assault, well that would be an (almost literal) Deus, but Hotaru is a known part of the setting and related to the plot at hand.

Just now, Tonbo Karasu said:

If it had been Hida who turned up and stopped the assault, well that would be an (almost literal) Deus, but Hotaru is a known part of the setting and related to the plot at hand.

Which is why I'm saying people don't know what a Deus ex Machina is.

9 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm always a fan of calling things what they are.

I can't help it if people's imaginations can't fathom the logical reason a clan champion would be at a hotly contested property being attacked by another clan champion.

Like I said. People don't know what Deus ex Machina means.

I don't have a problem with one clan champion killing another. I have a problem with Hotaru xD

Her head will roll as soon as possible if I have ever any say in that

On 6/10/2017 at 11:27 PM, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I'd gladly vote NO on Dairu.

I don't think they are rehashing the old Story so I'm excited about the Scorpion fic.

Whatever will those silly Scorpions get up to without a coup?

Really cause so far other than a few gender changes it is exactly the same as the old stories....

4 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I don't have a problem with one clan champion killing another. I have a problem with Hotaru xD

Her head will roll as soon as possible if I have ever any say in that

Well good for you. That doesn't make what happened a deus ex machina.

5 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Really cause so far other than a few gender changes it is exactly the same as the old stories....

Um, Satsume didn't die mysteriously as the Emerald Champion last time round. Nor did he hand over championship of the Crane before his death.

7 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Well good for you. That doesn't make what happened a deus ex machina.

Did I ever said it was? I tought you were the one implying that.

edit: didn't read shosuko's post, basically agree with you

Just now, BordOne said:

Did I ever said it was? I tought you were the one implying that.

No. No I wasn't. The exact opposite. I thought my second post was pretty clear in that nothing in the story broke with the established setting

Quote

Is it heroic to be a deus ex machina for supplanting Arasou with Toturi?

It was in response to this sentence.

21 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Really cause so far other than a few gender changes it is exactly the same as the old stories....

The set-up is (mostly) the same

But 'character driven stories about interclan conflict and samurai drama' precludes the plot driven apocalypse scenarios AEG did

Don't want to see another 'kick over the table and set it on fire' thing right out of the gate.

This is certainly one of those, wait and see moments. The foundation is the same, most likely as a way of reassuring old fans who are really pissed that Hoturi is now Hotaru. But these minor changes do show that it can not be the same exact stories, and thus long term we will see something different.

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

idk - I'm really jaded on this story. Crane stealing the show, anti-climactic death of a champion...

Can I ask what was your opinion of the Crane story, then?

Because Kachiko (and so the Scorpion) stole as much of the show then as Hotaru did here and, if I listen to people here (which I fortunatly don't), the depiction of Hotaru was awful then (either too much OP or totally incompetent according to different people) on top of it.

It's not targeted to you, but the old L5R story forum was a cesspool with all the complaints on every character and their every actions. It would be nice if this one didn't follow the same path.

6 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

This why generals usually stay in the back.

I can see your point abour Hotaru singling him out ticking off the Lion.

That might actually be the point. A deliberate show of disrespect.

Now the question is can Hotaru and the Crane handle the fallout from it

Except that the normal use of a bow in Rokugan wouldn't allow for sniping, its more pull,release,pull release less aiming. the Wasp aim and that's why they are the best archers. If Generals were worried about this in Rokugan they wouldn't run around with Banners declaring who they are, logical what you say makes sense. you would think they would be more generals assasinated from range since they all have giant banners declaring who they are.

25 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

The set-up is (mostly) the same

But 'character driven stories about interclan conflict and samurai drama' precludes the plot driven apocalypse scenarios AEG did

Don't want to see another 'kick over the table and set it on fire' thing right out of the gate.

I would rather see changes in the basic setup so we can see the changes now. I thought a story for the Lion where Arasou wasn't dead, and Toturi was just a general could have been interesting. There are alot of ways to cause personality conflicts between Lion and Crane, and the brief mention they originally gave of the Lion doesn't even match this story. In that Toturi was the younger brother and a brilliant general. in this he is back to older brother brilliant general passed over for Champion...

4 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Can I ask what was your opinion of the Crane story, then?

Because Kachiko (and so the Scorpion) stole as much of the show then as Hotaru did here and, if I listen to people here (which I fortunatly don't), the depiction of Hotaru was awful then (either too much OP or totally incompetent according to different people) on top of it.

It's not targeted to you, but the old L5R story forum was a cesspool with all the complaints on every character and their every actions. It would be nice if this one didn't follow the same path.

So this may just be me, but I liked the Crane story, and Kachiko may have stolen part of the show, but that story never felt like it existed to show Kachiko. all the characters in the Lion story feel paper thin uninteresting, and brutish for a lot of them. Then in walks Hotaru and dead Champion for the Lion. It's a major loss for a Clan Champion to die, and this feels like an offhand wave off of a Champion put in place to highlight Hotaru.

In My opinion Kachiko allowed us to see more of Hotaru, she didnt take over the story, but in this one Hotaru took over the story. just looking at the comments o nthe Lion story and they rather quietly left talking about the Lion clan in the dust(understandable since non of them had any real depth) and started talking about Hotaru and Kachiko and where else she may show up.

3 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Except that the normal use of a bow in Rokugan wouldn't allow for sniping, its more pull,release,pull release less aiming. the Wasp aim and that's why they are the best archers.

Quibble: The Wasp* don't aim (The Arrow Knows The Way was literally one of the techniques of the Tsuruchi school in the RPG). The Unicorn aim. The Wasp use the same bow style (kyujutsu) as everyone else in Rokugan, they're just better at it and have better longbows. The Unicorn style (aka, aiming) is known as yomanri.**

* This post assumes that these things are consistent from Classic L5R to New L5R (e.g., the Wasp exist).

** IIRC, the Unicorn are also the only clan that uses coordinated volley fire.

The idea that standard Rokugani archery doesn't involve aiming and is therefore inferior to the wasp style is so very, very dumb. What are Rokugani archery contests like? I'm imagining a bunch of targets, and arrows just like scattered everywhere around them. Some wasp is like 'you guys suck' and the Crane archer is like: 'you don't get it, hitting the target isn't the point'.

But of course it's not supposed to be like that. Really, the idea is more that there is a difference in style -- standard being more holistic and intuitive, wasp being more measured and analytical but obviously both styles involve hitting what you aim at. So imagining that there is something weird about a very skilled archer in the standard Rokugani style being able to 'snipe' somebody is just totally misunderstanding how archery is supposed to work, and what the difference is between the two styles. Both try to hit targets, and both can succeed if the archer is very skilled.

In any case, hopefully they just drop that entirely, because the whole idea of the wasp having a different, superior and basically 'western' style of archery is... uh... not great for the setting.

Edit: Ooh, and Daramere, remembers better how this works anyway. But might I add, the concept of the Unicorn having a 'Yomanri' archery style that is different than the Rokugani style makes absolutely no sense either, when you think about it, since the actual basis for the distinction between eastern and western styles is based basically on English/western Longbow which uses a forearm bracer vs. Mongol/Turkish archery, which uses a thumb ring. So if anyone uses the eastern style of archery, it ought to be the Moto.

Just now, Daramere said:

Quibble: The Wasp* don't aim (The Arrow Knows The Way was literally one of the techniques of the Tsuruchi school in the RPG). The Unicorn aim. The Wasp use the same bow style (kyujutsu) as everyone else in Rokugan, they're just better at it and have better longbows. The Unicorn style (aka, aiming) is known as yomanri.**

* This post assumes that these things are consistent from Classic L5R to New L5R (e.g., the Wasp exist).

** IIRC, the Unicorn are also the only clan that uses coordinated volley fire.

Oops my bad, for some reason I thought the wasp were aiming.

15 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Except that the normal use of a bow in Rokugan wouldn't allow for sniping, its more pull,release,pull release less aiming. the Wasp aim and that's why they are the best archers. If Generals were worried about this in Rokugan they wouldn't run around with Banners declaring who they are, logical what you say makes sense. you would think they would be more generals assasinated from range since they all have giant banners declaring who they are.

sure s/he has a banner and quite possibly several thousand soldiers who are also wearing banners between him and the archer.

and i mean that as a question of range

44 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Can I ask what was your opinion of the Crane story, then?

Because Kachiko (and so the Scorpion) stole as much of the show then as Hotaru did here and, if I listen to people here (which I fortunatly don't), the depiction of Hotaru was awful then (either too much OP or totally incompetent according to different people) on top of it.

It's not targeted to you, but the old L5R story forum was a cesspool with all the complaints on every character and their every actions. It would be nice if this one didn't follow the same path.

I can tell you from the perspective of a newbie who knows nothing of the old story aside from a few times when he heard something from friends.

Hotaru got her story already, which I disliked because it felt like somebody is trying to convince me very hard that she is oh so cool. I also hate the Crane perfectionism which seems to me needlesly patronizing. That being said I don't think it is a bad story just a mediocre one.

However why push this character even more in the fiction of the other clan? I got your message Hotaru is a strong woman bla bla, but why does she need to be in the spotlight again exactly? I didn't know Arasou got shafted immediately last time so for me it looks pretty lame, that the champion who is supposed to be specialized in war is effortlessly killed by a politician.

It makes for a good story, and that's the reason I only focus my hate on Hotaru, who for me just feels like a pushed character, rather than whole fiction. And I will hate her until she does something that convinces me that she is an interesting human being.

tl dr; let me hate Hotaru pls

28 minutes ago, Daramere said:

Quibble: The Wasp* don't aim (The Arrow Knows The Way was literally one of the techniques of the Tsuruchi school in the RPG). The Unicorn aim. The Wasp use the same bow style (kyujutsu) as everyone else in Rokugan, they're just better at it and have better longbows. The Unicorn style (aka, aiming) is known as yomanri.**

* This post assumes that these things are consistent from Classic L5R to New L5R (e.g., the Wasp exist).

** IIRC, the Unicorn are also the only clan that uses coordinated volley fire.

As someone that goes to a western archery club, there are two ways of hitting the target that are 'taught' at it:

1. 'Instinctual' - you point yourself at the target and learn how to make very consistent shots, knowing where your arrow is going to go based on how you were holding it and yourself when you release.
2. 'Aimed' - you use part of the bow (or arrow tip) to sight against the target, probably with some sort of offset.

To me, it sounds like the Unicorn use 2, whereas everyone else uses 1. The Wasp clan still use 1, but are just better at it, and have higher tech bows.