3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, this is what I said with being "overdramatic". The first half is utterly pointless in the larger scheme of things, and only introduces awkward things like the Phoenix trying to make peace with friggin' Iuchiban of all people. Just jump straight to the second half, and channel some peace through superior firepower.

He was a descendant of Hantei, to do otherwise would be to disrespect the Heavens.

3 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

He was a descendant of Hantei, to do otherwise would be to disrespect the Heavens.

Someone call an Asako Inquisitor and Kuni Witchunter. I smell a Bloodspeaker in our midst.

See, stuff like "maybe Iuchiban, the First Bloodspeaker, So Bad He Couldn't Be Killed And The Entire Empire Devoted Efforts to Imprisoning Him, can be reasoned with" doesn't jive with "we think the Mantis may have used a Black Scroll, you know, like we did a few years back, better go to war with them."

I live in hope that FFG will present the Phoenix as at least somewhat philosophically consistent- and there are two points on AEG's Phoenix continuum that work for me- both pacifist, neither passive.

One is the Battle of the Broken Daisho. A bit extreme, but it's a good metric of how far the Phoenix are willing to go to prove a point.

The other is the end of the Khan's March. Fire Dragon stealing the show aside, let's all recall how the Phoenix actually got everybody to stand down- by rolling in and forcibly separating armies' worth of fighting Lion, Unicorn, Scorpion, and Mantis. They actually got into the middle of an insanely bloody scrum and succeeded at forcing everybody back to their own corners. The Fire Dragon was simply what kept any of the leaders present- Chagatai, Naizen The Scumbag, Spinal Tap Matsu Champion #437- from trying to regroup and go at it again.

The argument about consistency in philosophy is an interesting argument when it comes to fiction. Personally, I don't like it. Real life, real people, aren't consistent. We're contradictory, impulsive, and anything but consistent. I've always loved Mark Twain's quote "Of course truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense!" Some level of inconsistency or change makes the setting feel more real, not less, to me.

Of the two examples you give, I quite agree with you on Battle of the Broken Daisho. On the other hand, I thought the Khan's March one was poorly done, and for similar reasons to what I disliked about the (unfinished) revealed writing for Onyx. Basically, they were writing it such that Phoenix was stronger than the rest of the Empire combines, and didn't rule just because... well, just because.

So, let the Phoenix continue to take both sides of the argument, claim to be pacifists except when they aren't, and give them victories and defeats.

I feel that Phoenix suffers from a problem similar to Lion (and most of the Clans, to be honest, maybe with the exception of Crane) - one of their themes is picked and extremized to the extreme. In Lion's case, it gives us THINKING SUCKS Matsu and MAHOMAHOMAHO/PACIFISM Phoenixes, and SMELLYDUMBLOYAL Crabs, and pointlessly villainous Scorpions, etc. These themes often override anything else about the clans in question, and instead of providing archetypes, philosophical backing and "feeling of being alive", they serve to flanderize the Clans and turn them into their stereotypes instead of providing common archetypes.

Again, I'm little bitter, because in RPG Lion is probably my favorite Clan, but how they were put "into motion" and what they were reduced to made them really unlikable to me in fiction and outside of RPG material.

But then again, I like playing characters like Shiba samuraiko who will absolutely brutalize you if you make her take her sword out, because she takes the idea of "avoid the conflict, and if impossible or leading to unneeded suffering, STRIKE HARD AND DECISIVELY" + "make an example, so others won't follow" to the heart, so I'm probably not target audience :P.

39 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I live in hope that FFG will present the Phoenix as at least somewhat philosophically consistent- and there are two points on AEG's Phoenix continuum that work for me- both pacifist, neither passive.

One is the Battle of the Broken Daisho. A bit extreme, but it's a good metric of how far the Phoenix are willing to go to prove a point.

The other is the end of the Khan's March. Fire Dragon stealing the show aside, let's all recall how the Phoenix actually got everybody to stand down- by rolling in and forcibly separating armies' worth of fighting Lion, Unicorn, Scorpion, and Mantis. They actually got into the middle of an insanely bloody scrum and succeeded at forcing everybody back to their own corners. The Fire Dragon was simply what kept any of the leaders present- Chagatai, Naizen The Sumbag, Spinal Tap Matsu Champion #437- from trying to regroup and go at it again.

But those are unique events that can't really be applied as a consistent but distinctive approach for an entire Clan across every time and situation. It's not workable for a Clan to go to war by simply showing up, letting the other side slaughter them, and hoping that the other side doesn't have the stomach for it. And it's not workable to have a Clan that just rolls in and beat up multiple other Clans at once (without or without summoning a dragon from the heavens). And both of those are examples of the Phoenix getting in between existing armies - they really don't work if it's someone attacking the Phoenix (or as a way for the Phoenix to directly confront someone) - the Broken Daisho technique is mostly just "lose every time" and the Khan's March technique is just having a big fight using all of your firepower just like anyone else does (there's only an element of "pacifism" when you make an intervention to stop others from fighting).

I'd also throw out that one could argue that having a Clan always be 100% philosophically consistent with some straightforward, easy-to-articulate position is not "realistic." Different nations/peoples have different preferences when it comes to conducting relations (including war or the lack thereof) with other nations/peoples. But the exact way that they treat any given situation always going to be the result of all sorts of intersecting factors that shift from situation to situation and shift over time.

5 minutes ago, WHW said:

pointlessly villainous Scorpions

I like pointlessly villainous Scorpions, to be honest. There is a certain charm to villains who do evil things just because they find others' suffering amusing and have no big endgame other than watch the world burn and dance on the ashes. Extra points if they actually pretend that they have something in mind, and let confusion reign when the heroes start chasing shadows.

25 minutes ago, Daramere said:

But those are unique events that can't really be applied as a consistent but distinctive approach for an entire Clan across every time and situation.

No, but it's the mindset I find indicative- I'm not saying that the actions/result need to be the same- as you say, one results in a pile of dead Shiba every time, while the other creates a narratively unfeasible juggernaut- but rather, the through-line between those two events:

"We Must Act!"
"How is this our problem?"
"We must be the spiritual stewards of Rokugan! Their folly endangers us all!"
"Do we have a plan?"
"Butt in in spectacular fashion without clearing it through anyone's proper channels!"
"... Why?"
"Because they're Wrong!"
"Did... did you capitalize 'wrong' just now?"
"YES."

Good for heroism, good for villainy. I'll grant that the two examples I cite have the Phoenix in more or less good guy/correct positions (because dammit, those are too thin on the ground for my tastes), but the same mentality can lead to arrogantly assuming a role in what really is a legitimate grievance between two other clans uninvited. It also provides a through-line to the only-one-other-faction-involved War of Fire and Thunder- "The Mantis did a Bad Thing, let's roll on them."

"Naizen the Scumbag", made my whole day. I was waiting for the Mantis to get curb-stomped after Khans Defiance. Was okay with the Mantis up until then.

1 hour ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

"Naizen the Scumbag", made my whole day. I was waiting for the Mantis to get curb-stomped after Khans Defiance. Was okay with the Mantis up until then.

It was around that time that my players all voted that their new duty would be to punish the Mantis in our game. We were really growing to hate the story-team with all the stuff the Mantis pulled and got away with.

Now that we have the return of Matsu(Good lord,woman take a pill or something)Tsuko im curious as to where her story is going this time 'round.

. Im torn between seeing her 'get over herself', or going bad . thoughts?

8 minutes ago, Samurai Fox said:

It was around that time that my players all voted that their new duty would be to punish the Mantis in our game. We were really growing to hate the story-team with all the stuff the Mantis pulled and got away with.

Yeah , the Mantis Plot Armor felt eggregious. I think the the only time they seemed to lose in story was back in Hidden Emperor.

I don't understand why Toturi didn't agree with Arasou about attacking after the successful ambush. He gives some line about how it would be bad politically to simply invade and take over the city, while a siege would be better... But the battle is already on and the excuse of any result of the skirmish can be laid on the simple fact that the skirmish happened... History is written by the victor. A siege would be long, drawn, out, and be prone to being dramatized and politicized, children starving in the street, lack of honor for not having direct conflict, ect... I see no reason a siege would have been better.

Also - Why didn't the Lion win? Are Crane archers so effective that they ended this battle so quickly, yet hadn't been a part of the battle up to this point? The Lion loss felt forced. Toturi didn't say they'd lose if they attacked, just that it wouldn't look good. The army just regained momentum, and with several star players on the battle field I don't buy a few archers stopping the whole thing...

Maybe if Toturi agreed with the attack, the lion won, but Arasou fell. Toturi denies an immediate move for vengeance amid the battle as his brother fell. Accepting it as a simple fact of war rather than as a personal attack by the Crane. It could still have drawn a line between him and Tsuko - who would have made Arasou's death a reason to move the war much further than a territorial dispute over rice production, into actual open war between the clans - but would have shown tactical intelligence rather than simple timidity.

I did enjoy the story, but I feel this part was a little off...

2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I don't understand why Toturi didn't agree with Arasou about attacking after the successful ambush. He gives some line about how it would be bad politically to simply invade and take over the city, while a siege would be better... But the battle is already on and the excuse of any result of the skirmish can be laid on the simple fact that the skirmish happened... History is written by the victor. A siege would be long, drawn, out, and be prone to being dramatized and politicized, children starving in the street, lack of honor for not having direct conflict, ect... I see no reason a siege would have been better.

Also - Why didn't the Lion win? Are Crane archers so effective that they ended this battle so quickly, yet hadn't been a part of the battle up to this point? The Lion loss felt forced. Toturi didn't say they'd lose if they attacked, just that it wouldn't look good. The army just regained momentum, and with several star players on the battle field I don't buy a few archers stopping the whole thing...

Maybe if Toturi agreed with the attack, the lion won, but Arasou fell. Toturi denies an immediate move for vengeance amid the battle as his brother fell. Accepting it as a simple fact of war rather than as a personal attack by the Crane. It could still have drawn a line between him and Tsuko - who would have made Arasou's death a reason to move the war much further than a territorial dispute over rice production, into actual open war between the clans - but would have shown tactical intelligence rather than simple timidity.

I did enjoy the story, but I feel this part was a little off...

Full on clan waefare is forbidden by Imperial edict. What is allowed is subject to political reversal So politics is ALWAYS a major factor, especially against the Crane.

25 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Now that we have the return of Matsu(Good lord,woman take a pill or something)Tsuko im curious as to where her story is going this time 'round.

. Im torn between seeing her 'get over herself', or going bad . thoughts?

I'm wondering if they're going to keep the hints at her having a secret relationship with Kitsu Motso after Arasou's passing. Though it wasn't really touched on other than being mentioned a few times, apparently there was an in-universe rumor that Tsuko was so close to Motso because he helped her get over Arasou and that there were people pushing for the two to be wed. Motso was always a favorite of mine, so it would be interesting to explore the two's dynamic; it's just as interesting if the two are really just close friends as it is that they be romantically involved.

3 hours ago, WHW said:

I feel that Phoenix suffers from a problem similar to Lion (and most of the Clans, to be honest, maybe with the exception of Crane) - one of their themes is picked and extremized to the extreme. In Lion's case, it gives us THINKING SUCKS Matsu and MAHOMAHOMAHO/PACIFISM Phoenixes, and SMELLYDUMBLOYAL Crabs, and pointlessly villainous Scorpions, etc. These themes often override anything else about the clans in question, and instead of providing archetypes, philosophical backing and "feeling of being alive", they serve to flanderize the Clans and turn them into their stereotypes instead of providing common archetypes.

A point very well made. That being said, hopefully, in this version, this sort of setup won't be. Maybe, just maybe (given some of the art on the Clan personality cards, and the first piece of fiction that was ) we might just have a more 'fluid' makeup of the various Clans, their intentions, and their general philosophy.

19 minutes ago, Samurai Fox said:

I'm wondering if they're going to keep the hints at her having a secret relationship with Kitsu Motso after Arasou's passing. Though it wasn't really touched on other than being mentioned a few times, apparently there was an in-universe rumor that Tsuko was so close to Motso because he helped her get over Arasou and that there were people pushing for the two to be wed. Motso was always a favorite of mine, so it would be interesting to explore the two's dynamic; it's just as interesting if the two are really just close friends as it is that they be romantically involved.

Ive never heard about this. If so I love it!

Its ironic, my latest 'for giggles' character idea was a Kitsu bushi, so seeing Motso back was nice.

I was really hoping Arasou would live this time around.

1 minute ago, Willisbatman said:

I was really hoping Arasou would live this time around.

I was too.

I wanted to see a different side of Tsuko, I think having some scenes with Arasou would've made her seem more rounded and realistic.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

I don't understand why Toturi didn't agree with Arasou about attacking after the successful ambush. He gives some line about how it would be bad politically to simply invade and take over the city, while a siege would be better... But the battle is already on and the excuse of any result of the skirmish can be laid on the simple fact that the skirmish happened... History is written by the victor. A siege would be long, drawn, out, and be prone to being dramatized and politicized, children starving in the street, lack of honor for not having direct conflict, ect... I see no reason a siege would have been better.

Also - Why didn't the Lion win? Are Crane archers so effective that they ended this battle so quickly, yet hadn't been a part of the battle up to this point? The Lion loss felt forced. Toturi didn't say they'd lose if they attacked, just that it wouldn't look good. The army just regained momentum, and with several star players on the battle field I don't buy a few archers stopping the whole thing...

Maybe if Toturi agreed with the attack, the lion won, but Arasou fell. Toturi denies an immediate move for vengeance amid the battle as his brother fell. Accepting it as a simple fact of war rather than as a personal attack by the Crane. It could still have drawn a line between him and Tsuko - who would have made Arasou's death a reason to move the war much further than a territorial dispute over rice production, into actual open war between the clans - but would have shown tactical intelligence rather than simple timidity.

I did enjoy the story, but I feel this part was a little off...

Because Toturi is thinking beyond the bloodlust of the current battle and to the ramifications of taking the city by force. It could bring actual war (which is forbidden). He is minimizing risk to the clan. Also, Arasou is suffering from a large case of overconfidence. He here Toturi say taking the city by force could lead to full war, and Arasou assumes that statement means the Lion would do it.

The crane had opened the gates and charged out after Arasou. Obviously, their were more Crane in the city. When the Lion charged, they had to cover 300 paces before the Crane closed the gates. They were about a third of the way, when Crane archers stepped through the gates to cover their retreating forces. And remember, Arasou stopped to talk with Tsuko & Toturi before charging the gates, so the retreating Crane had a head start. The archers only needed to cut down as couple of lines of Lion to get their forces through the gates and closed.

4 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Yeah , the Mantis Plot Armor felt eggregious. I think the the only time they seemed to lose in story was back in Hidden Emperor.

I spent considerable time and effort railing against their teflon coating on the AEG boards... because if the Phoenix only showed up to get humiliated, and if the Lion Clan Champion's job was dying to make other clans look tough, the Mantis (who, to be fair, spent a fair amount of time simply absent from the story) only showed up to be given new shiny consequence-free goodies.

2 hours ago, jcharpjr71 said:

Because Toturi is thinking beyond the bloodlust of the current battle and to the ramifications of taking the city by force. It could bring actual war (which is forbidden). He is minimizing risk to the clan. Also, Arasou is suffering from a large case of overconfidence. He here Toturi say taking the city by force could lead to full war, and Arasou assumes that statement means the Lion would do it.

The crane had opened the gates and charged out after Arasou. Obviously, their were more Crane in the city. When the Lion charged, they had to cover 300 paces before the Crane closed the gates. They were about a third of the way, when Crane archers stepped through the gates to cover their retreating forces. And remember, Arasou stopped to talk with Tsuko & Toturi before charging the gates, so the retreating Crane had a head start. The archers only needed to cut down as couple of lines of Lion to get their forces through the gates and closed.

I don't buy it. A siege gives the Crane time. It allows them to paint their story politically and draw in allies. It allows them to paint the Lion as vicious for starving peasants rather than fighting soldiers in a field of battle.

I feel this story is too contrived. Waiting isn't always the best "tactical" action. They haven't showcased Toturi as a tactician, they've shown him as a person who simply avoids conflict. He was timid in suggesting they attempt to restore a siege from open field combat when they already drew out the garrison and slaughtered them.

If they showed Toturi was willing to be patient where it mattered - aka waiting for the best time to strike with the ambush - and then also showed his ability to calculatingly defeat an enemy - I would buy it. That is tactics, knowing when to hold and when to double down. All he did was stall out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Worst of all was just how soundly they were defeated by Crane both before AND after Toturi's inclusion in the combat... Suddenly a few arrows kills the clan champion and the Cran win... yay Lion? BS - the Crane clan story showed where the Crane were strong. The Lion clan story showed where the Crane were strong...

The more I consider it, the worse this piece of fiction sits with me...

7 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I like pointlessly villainous Scorpions, to be honest. There is a certain charm to villains who do evil things just because they find others' suffering amusing and have no big endgame other than watch the world burn and dance on the ashes. Extra points if they actually pretend that they have something in mind, and let confusion reign when the heroes start chasing shadows.

Wow, I'm the total opposite. I like my villains to be believable. Which, let's face it, wasn't AEG's strong point.

My favorite example of terrible villain logic was Yoritomo Kitao in the Battle of Broken Waves.

Kitao: Due to our clever scheming, our enemies are killing each other!

Moshi Mogi: Yay! In order to win, all we have to do now is nothing!

Kitao: Now, to row my obviously-tainted-*** right in between the two forces and begin shooting at both sides!

Mogi: ...um, what?

*12 seconds later, Kitao has 30 arrows embedded in her face and is on fire*

Kitao: No! Where did my plan go awry!?

I suspect this was a big part of Daigotsu's appeal. He was just about the only villain whose actions always made sense.

26 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I don't buy it. A siege gives the Crane time. It allows them to paint their story politically and draw in allies. It allows them to paint the Lion as vicious for starving peasants rather than fighting soldiers in a field of battle.

I feel this story is too contrived. Waiting isn't always the best "tactical" action. They haven't showcased Toturi as a tactician, they've shown him as a person who simply avoids conflict. He was timid in suggesting they attempt to restore a siege from open field combat when they already drew out the garrison and slaughtered them.

If they showed Toturi was willing to be patient where it mattered - aka waiting for the best time to strike with the ambush - and then also showed his ability to calculatingly defeat an enemy - I would buy it. That is tactics, knowing when to hold and when to double down. All he did was stall out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Worst of all was just how soundly they were defeated by Crane both before AND after Toturi's inclusion in the combat... Suddenly a few arrows kills the clan champion and the Cran win... yay Lion? BS - the Crane clan story showed where the Crane were strong. The Lion clan story showed where the Crane were strong...

The more I consider it, the worse this piece of fiction sits with me...

You don't understand, Lion, clan of warriors and strategists needed to lose to effeminate politicians in their own first fiction to show how awesome Hotaru is :>

31 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I spent considerable time and effort railing against their teflon coating on the AEG boards... because if the Phoenix only showed up to get humiliated, and if the Lion Clan Champion's job was dying to make other clans look tough, the Mantis (who, to be fair, spent a fair amount of time simply absent from the story) only showed up to be given new shiny consequence-free goodies.

Story wish list;

1.Shojou becomes EC. (coup who?)

2.Ujimitsu kils Yoritomo with a sandal (its a win-win plus he was kinda a d-bag anyway)

3,Hitomi - Tsuko romance (Scarier than bringing back the Lying Darkness)