11 minutes ago, WHW said:

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

They would besiege the Crane, and those guys have a tendency to go for DRAMA over actual fighting. Like, say, jumping down from the walls of their fortress with torches so that everyone can be very SAD about it.

The correct answer to Siege problem is to utilize the fact that you have mobility and they don't, so you force them out by providing a threat of just going and doing something better with your time, like raiding, taking away their peasants, plundering their trade routes or attacking something else. You want them to face a lose-lose situation, where if they stay at the city they will lose something, and if they don't, they will have to contest your army without the safety of fortifications.

Of course, I guess that you could say that Arasou&Co were only interested in Toshi Ranbo itself, and didn't care about...anything, actually.

44 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I don't think this is super accurate for pre-modern warfare. Field battles are head-to-head. Strategy did sometimes win pre-modern campaigns without a field battle, but it was pretty uncommon. The role of strategy in these campaigns was to ensure that the field battle(s) was fought in as favourable conditions as possible. And a lot of the strategy that was involved did not require anything dishonourable: it was maneuver, that took place over days, weeks or months, which secured lines of supply, caused attrition in the enemy army, and eventually forced a battle in terrain and circumstances of the general' choosing.

You're right that head-to-head battles don't necessarily mean something went "wrong". I was incorrect to use that word. However, even your own statement shows that it was never really the go-to option initially. Raiding, skirmishing, etc. help you establish a much stronger position at the cost of much fewer men than simply throwing wave after wave of troops at the enemy. And even when head-to-head battles are joined, most generals will want to set up a flanking maneuver to cut off the enemy while they're engaged.

So no, head-to-head may not actually be wrong in every case, but it shouldn't be a general's go-to strategy, either.

47 minutes ago, WHW said:

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

If they could have caught the Crane force outside the city, I might agree. Once the defenders are behind city walls laying siege is still preferable to assaulting said fortified position.

BTW, anyone interested in an accessible and educational look at Medival Japanese warfare on a strategic scale should check out the excellent Sekigahara from GMT. It covers the brief but epic campaign by Tokugawa Ieyasu which unified Japan in 1600. The author provides excellent historical notes on the campaign, which was decided as much by shifting loyalties as by force of arms. The game includes a nod to this with a mechanism worthy of the Scorpion: if you press your allies too hard in battle, they may turn against you at a critical moment, and turn the tide of battle

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25021/sekigahara-unification-japan

1 hour ago, WHW said:

That's the general problem with making your "SUPER HONOR CLAN" also "MASTER OF TACTICS" clan. Tactics are, at their core, finding a way to create an unfair situation where you negate opponent's strength and multiply yours, or negate your weakness. Tactics are, kinda, "skorpion dishonorable" at their core. I suspect that's why majority of Lion Tactical Brilliance we saw ends up being "throw more people at them until they run out of their men but we don't run out of ours" - becuse majority of strategies and tactics involve:

1. being not fair-play

2. being indirect

3. acknowledging that you are not strong enough to take your opponents directly, or that doing so is suboptimal

4. relying in some way on deception

I think the issue is a misunderstanding of how honor works in Rokugan. It's less an internal value system and more a social construct meant to reinforce one's position within the samurai caste. SFDebris has a discussion here about honor starting at about -32:40 related to Klingons in Star Trek that I think is very applicable to L5R.

There also the concept that as the most honorable Clan anything the Lion do is inherently honorable. Similar to how a Crane Champion wearing clothes that haven't been fashionable for a decade makes them fashionable because the Crane Champion is wearing them. So while the Lion and Scorpion might both employ deceptive tactics they're only dishonorable when the Scorpion do it, which is certainly hypocritical but hypocrisy isn't really an issue in this sort of self reinforcing group dynamic.

1 hour ago, Yandia said:

There are different level of being deceitful. In German we would make the distinction between Heimtücke and Kriegslist (I am terribly sorry I don't know the correct English terms).

Heimtücke would be something like waiving the white flag to signal defeat just to catch the opponent off-guard when you attack anyways.

Kriegslist describes an act where you lead your opponent astray, basically that we have seen in the story. The Crane thought they had an advantage and were then caught in a pincer attack.

Heimtücke would be dishonorable, but a Kriegslist is still honorable behavior. Such a distinction must also exist in Rokugan.

I kind of think the Crane employed Kriegslist here. They send out what seems like the bulk of there forces to get decimated and lure the Lion into charging into a surprise archer attack.

59 minutes ago, WHW said:

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

I'm gonna point out that Toturi's arguments against assaulting the city are all political rather than military. And I maintain that allowing a protracted siege would have been a mistake since it would have given the Crane the opportunity to employ their superior asymmetric assets, ie: politics, harrying supply lines, etc.

1 hour ago, twinstarbmc said:

The Crane are already hungry and, until Hotaru showed up, hurting. A siege would put pressure on them, starve them out, and, as Toturi suggested, bring about a surrender. A victory, with little bloodshed.

Also once Hotaru is there, sending raids in force into the Crane lands while she is now helpless in a Siege, and allowing hte communications in could force her to surrender. especially if the surrender and removal of all Crane forces from Toshi Ranbo also came with a session of hostilities on thier "supply" lines(supply lines being all Crane territories at the time)

4 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Also once Hotaru is there, sending raids in force into the Crane lands while she is now helpless in a Siege, and allowing hte communications in could force her to surrender. especially if the surrender and removal of all Crane forces from Toshi Ranbo also came with a session of hostilities on thier "supply" lines(supply lines being all Crane territories at the time)

I'm pretty sure the Emperor would not allow this. Only Toshi Ranbo is in contention and raiding into the Crane Lands would be informal and illegitimate declaration of war.

Remember that Toturi weigh the course of actions possible against the Emperor's favor. The Emperor might encourage skirmishes to keep the clan in line but all-out-war was not in the Imperial's best interest. Toshi Ranbo could be taken but if the Emperor ordered it to be given back to the Crane because political propaganda, the Lion would lose face both in the court and battefield as opposed to letting the Crane surrender the City willingly which the Emperor or the Crane politicians will be hard-pressed to spun around.

7 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

I think the issue is a misunderstanding of how honor works in Rokugan. It's less an internal value system and more a social construct meant to reinforce one's position within the samurai caste. SFDebris has a discussion here about honor starting at about -32:40 related to Klingons in Star Trek that I think is very applicable to L5R.

There also the concept that as the most honorable Clan anything the Lion do is inherently honorable. Similar to how a Crane Champion wearing clothes that haven't been fashionable for a decade makes them fashionable because the Crane Champion is wearing them. So while the Lion and Scorpion might both employ deceptive tactics they're only dishonorable when the Scorpion do it, which is certainly hypocritical but hypocrisy isn't really an issue in this sort of self reinforcing group dynamic.

I kind of think the Crane employed Kriegslist here. They send out what seems like the bulk of there forces to get decimated and lure the Lion into charging into a surprise archer attack.

I'm gonna point out that Toturi's arguments against assaulting the city are all political rather than military. And I maintain that allowing a protracted siege would have been a mistake since it would have given the Crane the opportunity to employ their superior asymmetric assets, ie: politics, harrying supply lines, etc.

Do we know for certain that hypocrisy is considered dishonorable? If it's not, then it's not bad in Rokugan. :-P

On the topic of Crane strengths, I would love to see a force of Crane attack the Lion supply lines. All the Crane would be lying motionless in the tall grass, waiting for the perfect time to strike as the caravan passes. As the Crane commander signals his troops, everyone starts to move forward stealthily...except Nerishma, who immediately stands up, points his yari at the Lion troops, and bellows, "It's an ambush! Be ready!" All the other Crane facepalm.

I appear to have read the story as being less "Toturi good, Arasou bad" than most of the rest of the crowd.

Yes, Arasou died during the assault. But Toturi wasn't arguing against the direct assault because he thought his brother would die, or he thought the Lion would fail. He was arguing against it because the casualties that would result (on both sides) and the possible political ramifications (as shineyorkboy pointed out). Most Lion are probably far more willing to sacrifice lives to achieve a military objective than Toturi appeared here - Toturi's view doesn't inherently make him a better general. And we'll never know if Toturi's political calculus was right.

Plus, I think Toturi was depicted as indecisive and somewhat overthinking. Not during the military action, but afterward.

Toturi just needs to spend a little time with a new sensei, so he can overcome his indecisiveness.

Might I suggest this man

He already has Kage sensei.

2 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

I kind of think the Crane employed Kriegslist here. They send out what seems like the bulk of there forces to get decimated and lure the Lion into charging into a surprise archer attack.

If Hotaru did actually plan this , then definitely yes... You try to outsmart each before and during the battle. That is one of the most important parts.

37 minutes ago, Daramere said:

I appear to have read the story as being less "Toturi good, Arasou bad" than most of the rest of the crowd.

Yes, Arasou died during the assault. But Toturi wasn't arguing against the direct assault because he thought his brother would die, or he thought the Lion would fail. He was arguing against it because the casualties that would result (on both sides) and the possible political ramifications (as shineyorkboy pointed out). Most Lion are probably far more willing to sacrifice lives to achieve a military objective than Toturi appeared here - Toturi's view doesn't inherently make him a better general. And we'll never know if Toturi's political calculus was right.

Plus, I think Toturi was depicted as indecisive and somewhat overthinking. Not during the military action, but afterward.

This is why I would like it much more if Arasou would die but his bold move ended up winning the siege. His price for victory would be his own life, and Tsuko would have a bitter pill to swallow, because everyone would be all like HE DIED FOR TOSHI RANBO, HE DIED FOR TOSHI RANBO, HE DIED FOR TOSHI RANBO, PRAISE MARTYR ARASOU.

This has been a problem for the L5R story since the start. Most of what we know about the clans was added into the story well after the game came out. It wasn't till much later that the Phoenix clan pacifism was added. This led to a disconnect to some of the tactics that they had use in earlier stories. and there have been many other issues with later added clan ideals. This is one of the things I'm hoping they fix in the new stories.

1 hour ago, Suzume Urusai said:

He already has Kage sensei.

Bruce Lee would stomp Kage.

But really I was just getting at the fact that Toturi might just need a good slap.....something I'm sure Tsuko would agree with.

Also......

Bruce Lee would stomp Kage

Well, Kage IS Kolat, and they DO tend to get killed anytime they stop going "we're so clever!" and actually try to do a thing...

4 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Well, Kage IS Kolat, and they DO tend to get killed anytime they stop going "we're so clever!" and actually try to do a thing...

TV Tropes has it listed that the for all the Kolat's informed coolness, they're really not much more than a bunch over-important Yakuza gangs most of the time...can't say I disagree...most of the time. They kind of lost their importance in the old universe after Toturi became Emperor, after all.

22 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

This has been a problem for the L5R story since the start. Most of what we know about the clans was added into the story well after the game came out. It wasn't till much later that the Phoenix clan pacifism was added. This led to a disconnect to some of the tactics that they had use in earlier stories. and there have been many other issues with later added clan ideals. This is one of the things I'm hoping they fix in the new stories.

Great Clans and other source books do a wonderful job fleshing out each Clan core aspects. Phoenix Pacifism stems both from spiritual beliefs (the value of life and peace), and from genuine disgust at the sheer damage a Phoenix Army can cause (they can literally rip the landscape apart, for example), but is also conflicted by the fact that they are a warrior caste in a warrior culture, so there are always going to be elements in the clan that push towards war and violence...and the fact that Isawa put pride over pretty much everything else, and while war might be bad, they can easily justify it when they personally do something violent.

5 minutes ago, Samurai Fox said:

Phoenix Pacifism stems both from spiritual beliefs (the value of life and peace), and from genuine disgust at the sheer damage a Phoenix Army can cause (they can literally rip the landscape apart, for example), but is also conflicted by the fact that they are a warrior caste in a warrior culture, so there are always going to be elements in the clan that push towards war and violence...

As a side note, I never understood why the writers made this so overdramatic. Si vis pacem, para bellum, as the wise Yodotai would say. Peace through superior firepower is a good way to be a pacifist warrior elite without going over-the-top with your pacifism... yeah, Battle of the Broken Daisho, I'm looking at you here.

6 hours ago, WHW said:

Exactly. This is also why, in many RPG sources, Akodo is supposed to claim that the best kind of victory is the one where you don't even pull out your sword. But then again, Lion in sourcebooks is claimed to be much smarter and "Art of War-ish" than we have seen over the years in practice.

The Lion are great at war...when the outcome isn't decided by a meta card game. Flavor wise, and from Rokugani history, the Lion have a pretty strong track record on the battlefield. Their worst defeats in-game (such as the War of Rich Frog) tend to be caused by forces outside of their control (another clan joining the fray, or some disaster striking their heartlands), or outright plot devices (their Champion being replaced by a mad clone that has no idea how to lead an army). Historically, when the Lion get into a fight, they fight to win or make the enemy suffer, and they tend to do just that. The biggest exception would be during Matsu Itagi's rule, and he just wanted to bleed the other clans with the Lion's giant army without actually capitalizing on his first few victories to prove he had the biggest sword of them all (you can take that in a Freudian way if you want, it still fits him).
Akodo outright said that all tactics are deception and that nothing is dishonorable on the battlefield (though he likely wasn't being fully literal in either case...though the Scorpion would disagree with me).

5 hours ago, WHW said:

Japan loved Art of War, and Chinese love Zhuge Liang. Both were adamant about deception and playing unfair being the best thing; one of legendary accomplishments of Zhuge Liang was to defeat a sieging army by opening the gates, sending all soldiers away, and placing himself in a highly visible tower playing playing music.

Enemy army retreated because sieging general decided that there must be something going on and if he took the bait, he probably would get massacred and humiliated :P.

Now imagine trying to do something like this in Rokugan using Lion...

I actually do barely remember things like that from the fictions...but I can't think of any good examples. One of my favorites was during the Scorpion Coup, Toturi had the Crab army attack the Forbidden City's enchanted walls like a bunch of idiots while he took a handful of troops into the sewers and systematically killed the distracted Scorpion on the walls while another group started fires throughout the Forbidden City that the Scorpion had to put out while Toturi opened the gates. Not sure if they kept that as time went on, but I'm pretty such that sums up Toturi's initial victory at the Coup.

5 hours ago, Katsutoshi said:

I think there is a confusion between playing smart and playing unfair.

You have armies, you have battlefields. Everything you do there is fine whatever and any way you do it, it's okay.

Poison, murders, sabotage, this is not playing fair.

That's pretty much supposed to be the major difference between the Scorpion and the Akodo when it comes to tactics...most of the time.

4 hours ago, Gamedog said:

BTW, anyone interested in an accessible and educational look at Medival Japanese warfare on a strategic scale should check out the excellent Sekigahara from GMT. It covers the brief but epic campaign by Tokugawa Ieyasu which unified Japan in 1600. The author provides excellent historical notes on the campaign, which was decided as much by shifting loyalties as by force of arms. The game includes a nod to this with a mechanism worthy of the Scorpion: if you press your allies too hard in battle, they may turn against you at a critical moment, and turn the tide of battle

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25021/sekigahara-unification-japan

I will need to use this when I have the time. Thank you very much.

9 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

As a side note, I never understood why the writers made this so overdramatic. Si vis pacem, para bellum, as the wise Yodotai would say. Peace through superior firepower is a good way to be a pacifist warrior elite without going over-the-top with your pacifism... yeah, Battle of the Broken Daisho, I'm looking at you here.

That's because our modern culture has vilified war so much that it can never be a good thing. I've seen professors in colleges that demand their students accept that America should have never gotten into WWII again the Nazies or Japan no matter what because war is inherently evil, no matter what the other side was doing to innocents.
The Battle of the Broke Daisho is awesome flavor and story, provided it not become the norm of the Phoenix. Displays like that are one-time tricks. More than that and you'll just harden everyone's heart to your cause.
Real Phoenix Pacifism is being reluctant to join the fight...but hitting hard as Jigoku once they do. Literally incinerating half of the enemy army marching towards you is a great way to stop a long, protracted war that'll destroy many villages and end many lives, after all. In story, this was supposed to be the Phoenix's major view on war, for the most part. In practice, once again, card tournaments decide what clans do, regardless of their ideals.

35 minutes ago, Samurai Fox said:

Real Phoenix Pacifism is being reluctant to join the fight...but hitting hard as Jigoku once they do. Literally incinerating half of the enemy army marching towards you is a great way to stop a long, protracted war that'll destroy many villages and end many lives, after all. In story, this was supposed to be the Phoenix's major view on war, for the most part. In practice, once again, card tournaments decide what clans do, regardless of their ideals.

Nope.

Not one of the Phoenix Clan's defeats (Shaitung vs the Council, the War of Fire and Thunder, the War of the Twins...) was determined by card game results.

All of them arose from simple story decisions. Despite outright leveling Shutai, which indicates that the gloves were off, the Phoenix were incapable of bringing the Scorpion to anything better than a bloody grinding stalemate.

I'm still pretty hacked that it often seemed that AEG only remembered to write about the Phoenix when they needed a punching bag.

Just now, Shiba Gunichi said:

Nope.

Not one of the Phoenix Clan's defeats (Shaitung vs the Council, the War of Fire and Thunder, the War of the Twins...) was determined by card game results.

All of them arose from simple story decisions. Despite outright leveling Shutai, which indicates that the gloves were off, the Phoenix were incapable of bringing the Scorpion to anything better than a bloody grinding stalemate.

I'm still pretty hacked that it often seemed that AEG only remembered to write about the Phoenix when they needed a punching bag.

That's even worse that being decided by stupid tournament results!
Of course, I also loved the Shaitung vs. Council results just because it was great story and the council needed to be humbled (and as time went on, they made it clear it was her tactics/willingness to die for a victory that one the day for her, and not something she could do a second time). And it was actually mentioned that the Phoenix were winning overall when both clans decided to withdraw from the conflict as one...so I guess you'd call it a draw at best? (but I maintain the Tamori were badass and I really hope they somehow come back, even if I love Dragon Agasha).
But I hated the War of Fire and Thunder; that one made no sense to me from start to finish, how the Mantis could match Phoenix might (remember that the Phoenix thought the Mantis were using a Black Scroll...the kid gloves were OFF, as far as the Isawa were concerned).

This story was....bad..really..really really really bad

before I get into this I want to say I intentionaly waited 24 hours to cool of..but i am still furios enough to create an account and say what i have to say..so yeah its a new account with a low post count..probably the only post im going to do even and english is not my first language so..excuse all the gramma/spelling mistakes that are sure to follow.

OK first off randomly killings of lion clan champions in fiction is a ugly AEG habit that I really hoped ffg would not pick up...theres a reason why lion has more than double the champions as any other clan in the old game...and contrary to, apperantly popular belive its not something lion players ever were proud of (for sort of showing of our commitment to die for glory..but they never do..they always die becourse of stupidity..like this one..again). So I would never kill a lion clan champion in the first f***ing lion themend story.

Then when I read :
"No army can withstand the ferocity and tenacity of the Lion’s warriors or the stratagems of the clan’s brilliant new general, Akodo Toturi."
NEW general dident translate for me into OLDER brother of the lion clan champion. I also thought it would be very beneficial if toturis story got changed up..alot..becourse after so many years people are so fed up with toturi in general (its like 3/5 of the old story is toturi+heirs doing this and that). Keeping everything as is or slightly worse for me seems like a bad idea (and spare me the "its only the first 2 story" stuff..if a soup tastes funny after the first 2 spoons im not eating it)

But if we have to do old toturi..what the hell is he doing commanding the reinforcements of the lion clan ? If we skipped over toturi for clan champion and send him to a monastery we did this to put him away from public eye and he has no buisness "raking" in any potential glory another generaly surely whants to collect....theres a perfectly fine Kitsu Motso (if he also is just a copy past job like all the other guys) who is more than capable of doing exactly this kind of attack (to be fair he at least seems to be the only one grasping whats happening in the beginning of the story).

now..the actual story :

Matsu Tsuko:

It has been mentioned before but..Matsu Tsuko is a unaccaptable character..for someone whos name once reunited the lion clan this leave much to be wanted:

1. So Akodo Arasou has been fighting for weeks but she only now able to join him ?

" Arasou had been campaigning at the foot of the city for several weeks, "

WHY ?! There better be a good reason for this and hopefully toturi related otherwise its ridiculous for her to be angry about not fighting at his side..but were not told are we?

2. Lets assume theres a good reason..the lion lands are big and going off to war without telling your significant other is totaly something arasou could do..especialy if he knows she loves fighting more than anything..wait no its something the writer puts there to keep the story intact..but she gets delayed by lets say organising her units or something. So shes missed weeks of fighting but cant wait another HOUR !? Even if the tactical advantage is cristal clear to even an untrained heimin..but not the Matsu Daimyo ? to the point that...

3. " She raised an arm as if to strike him, " are you kidding me ? Motso needs to intervine too so at least he thinks shes capable of doing that....real showing of the lions dedication to tactic and honor that is. Look I understand that these characters are high hailing members of there familys that ment to push the limits alittle..but theres "grinding your teeth becourse you have to do something your dont like" and "ACTUALLY trying to strike your commanding officer in the back to ignore his commands". This whole thing should have been a couble of eyecontacts with her and..possibly gohei maybe 1 or 2 sentences of whisper,still to gohei never to toturi and never never ever an action.

4. And if shes this over the top brash and uncontrollably..why doesent she burn the city to the ground? The whole lion army calls it a day if there clanchampion gets slaughtert ? I assume were doing this becourse that would mean Hotaru would be killed right then and there..and we dont want to kill "real" clanchampions.

All in all Tsuko is not a real character shes only a prop that does what the writer need her to do to keep the story intact.

The Lion Clan Army:

1. Seriously..the WHOLE lion army calls it a day after the clanchampion gets shot by an arrow!? We are talking mid charge! Anything behind the next 2 attack rows would not even have seen that the champion was shot..they just...stop ?

2. There is no honor guard in the lion army that can throw themself infront of there champion ?

"Arasou and his elite swordsmen bounded toward the Crane "
..oh there is..well what were they up to when there champion got attacked by archers ?

3. The lion clan has no answere to an arrow attack at all ? They should be lucky those ashigarus only had spears then or the whole thing would have been lost right there and toturi would have looked mighty stupid in his "ambush" position.

The Lion army just seem to do what the writer needs them to do to keep the story intact.

Akodo Arasou:

Its been said before..but Akodo Arasou is an unacaptable character.

1.

"building siege weapons, and needing reinforcements only to make his final push to retake the city"

So he was planning on sieging the city ? What changed ? Why ?..crikets

2. Arasou is an Akodo so even if you can forgive Tsukos brashness becourse of her Matsu linage..Arasou has no such excuses for any of his actions. I realise that overconvidence and brash behaviour is a "theme" of the lion clan but the levels are just out of any proportions. I always thought that if you know what you are doing and are pushing there buttons you can get a brash reaction from a lion that can have negative consequences for them. These guys buttons seem to be pushed to max all the time with no outside interference at all.

3. The Arasou on the battlefield also does not seem to care for any kind a tactical finess at all..why was he choosen as champion over Toturi ?!

Arasou.. seems like someone who does what the writer needs them to do to keep the story intact.

Doji Hotaru:

Ah yes the newes member of the vast community of "Lion Clanchampion Killers"

This is what really pisses me off if we ABSOLUTLY have to have to have to kill another lion champ..could we not at least do it..you know...good ?

So the unexpecting thing here is that Hotaru is there at all (mast have arrived there without the typical "clan champion is here" ceremonies, would certantly sound familiar ) but nobody seems to be shoked about this..they really need to be! Becourse then we could explain that killing a clanchampion (non lion clanchampion of course) is actally a big deal and something the emperor would not accept willynilly so the attack could logicly slow down for a heartbeat. Just enough time so Hotaru can challenge Arasou to a duell (shouting stuff like "why not end this between the two of us or are you scared, blabla" the good jazz)..pushing his buttons (see how this would work out real nice with known lion disadvantages) so he accepts, of course they negotiate that the attack is over if he would loose, but he not gona loose he is the overconfident lion (there you go 2 for 2). Then when Arasou looses the duell (witch is something the emperor might agree..technicly a clan champion is still a direct servant to him and needs to ask if theres a posibility that he might die..especially if both participants are direct servants of him but good crane courtieship could swing that) it would make much more sense that the lion army comes to a screeching halt and regroupes. The letter of hotaru would make much more sence becourse as it is, just shooting arasou makes no difference at all

"The white-haired samurai wiped away her tears before fleeing with the remaining Crane back into Toshi Ranbo, the gates closing behind them."

seems to me like she could have closed the gates without shooting toturis brother at all..whitch makes this note a sort of "haha killed your brother, you mad?" thing. Wih the duell there is a sense of gain..a locical reason for the lion to withdraw..and something she accualy must do..not something she just you know...feels like doing.

Then we can have Tsuko screaming in the war room "screw honor and duell terms,I want them all dead" whitch also would make much more sence and people at least could emphasise with her "they have to leave the battlefield for a silly duell but there army would have crushed them..thats not fair...im with tsuko!". She could even be the one to bring up that hotaru and toturi are friends "Your ""friend"" killed you brother what are you going to do about it?" or something like that. That would also be a perfect transition to Toturis inner monologe that he has in the real story..only it would have more impact. He of course would be more willing to honor the arrangement between Arasou and Hotaru..but still his friend DID kill is brother..what IS he doing about that?

Basicly we would be in the same position we are now but all characters would be way better of..I just dont get why we always have to kill the lion clan champ in the most meaningless way we can, thats all.

13 hours ago, Samurai Fox said:

Real Phoenix Pacifism is being reluctant to join the fight...but hitting hard as Jigoku once they do.

Yeah, this is what I said with being "overdramatic". The first half is utterly pointless in the larger scheme of things, and only introduces awkward things like the Phoenix trying to make peace with friggin' Iuchiban of all people. Just jump straight to the second half, and channel some peace through superior firepower.

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, this is what I said with being "overdramatic". The first half is utterly pointless in the larger scheme of things, and only introduces awkward things like the Phoenix trying to make peace with friggin' Iuchiban of all people. Just jump straight to the second half, and channel some peace through superior firepower.

Si vis pacem, para Phoenix.