1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

Second, other than the Crab Rokugani armies aren't good at conducting sieges. You're basically going to have to starve out the defenders

This was true of many sieges in history, frankly. Carrying a city by assault did happen, but that was less common than waiting until starvation and disease forced them to surrender, or somebody in the city decided to betray them from within rather than wait for that to happen. But given how strong Rokugani clan loyalty is portrayed as being, the latter is pretty unlikely to show up in stories here.

1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

I like people's tendency to turn geopolitics into hormonal high school melodrama.

Again, pretty true to reality. :-D Best description of history I've ever seen called it a cross between a celebrity gossip magazine and a disaster movie.

3 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

On a slightly different note, am I the only one who really likes the Toturi art?

AEG Toturi is to FFG Toturi as Squidward is to Handsome Squidward

2 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Second, other than the Crab Rokugani armies aren't good at conducting sieges.

Just a side note, but the Lion is supposedly on par with the Crab when it comes to sieges.

I'm more surprised that the very first time we see a Lion army... it does Skorpion Taktik with all that ambushing and sacrificing own troops to gain an advantage.

16 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

AEG Toturi is to FFG Toturi as Squidward is to Handsome Squidward

So he looks exactly the same, except with a better face?

21 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

So he looks exactly the same, except with a better face?

Not Exactly

5 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I totally understand the feeling of not wanting the to re-hash things, but I'm personally actually hoping the plot's overarching events (Scorpion Clan Coup, Battle of Beiden Pass, Kisada marches on Otosan Uchi, Second Day of Thunder, etc.) remain mostly the same. I only really got into L5R after the Clan War era, but it always was my favorite era for the stories, so I would look forward to the chance of experiencing them in real time, even if there are a lot of differences in the details this time around.

But, we'll have to wait and see. The FFG team might be looking to shake things up and surprise the old player base, and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't want to be seen as just re-hashing things.

I'm a fan of the original clan wars but FF said they wanted to do their own thing. At first I was disappointed to hear the entire canon was being wiped but I was willing to give it a chance. Who knows, maybe we could see something very different yet great.

So far all the changes I've seen have been very minor. It seems like a complete waste of the previous fiction, hence why I really want to see them take it in an alternate direction.

1 hour ago, TechnoGolem said:

I'm a fan of the original clan wars but FF said they wanted to do their own thing. At first I was disappointed to hear the entire canon was being wiped but I was willing to give it a chance. Who knows, maybe we could see something very different yet great.

So far all the changes I've seen have been very minor. It seems like a complete waste of the previous fiction, hence why I really want to see them take it in an alternate direction.

We're two fictions in, and they are both introductions. The next five will also be introductions. The story won't actually start until the came comes out. Have patience.

15 hours ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

Do you know how many things we pronounce wrong? The western habit of putting hard emphasis on vowels means we butcher most words/names.

I'm speaking to spelling. I don't care how you pronounce it.

10 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

I really would like to hear the opinions of those new to L5R in regards to the fiction. Is it drawing you in? Letting you know the clans? For me it really does feel like revisiting the past. I really enjoyed this fiction but it didn't really surprise me or feel new, just felt like a we were back in my familiar Rokugan again.

Well, as someone new to the setting (I was aware of the CCG back in its heyday, but never active), I have enjoyed the two fictions very much. The authors have done a good job of explaining through context rather than exposition: for example the honorific "-ue" is not explained but it quickly becomes clear through context that it is reserved for the Champion.

Other bits -- references to the Carpenter Wall, kami, weapon names -- these have served to draw me in. I don't need to know exactly what they are to understand the general story, and I am confident that either I they will be explained in time or, if I'm really curious, I can go find more about them from the various sources available. By sprinkling these references in naturally, with little or no exposition, the author creates the illusion that this world exists on its own terms and not simply for the reader -- it creates an illusion of depth. I would also note that by encouraging me to look to other sources for explanations, the fiction is doing an excellent job of drawing me further into the game and the community around it.

5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Just a side note, but the Lion is supposedly on par with the Crab when it comes to sieges.

I'm more surprised that the very first time we see a Lion army... it does Skorpion Taktik with all that ambushing and sacrificing own troops to gain an advantage.

That's the general problem with making your "SUPER HONOR CLAN" also "MASTER OF TACTICS" clan. Tactics are, at their core, finding a way to create an unfair situation where you negate opponent's strength and multiply yours, or negate your weakness. Tactics are, kinda, "skorpion dishonorable" at their core. I suspect that's why majority of Lion Tactical Brilliance we saw ends up being "throw more people at them until they run out of their men but we don't run out of ours" - becuse majority of strategies and tactics involve:

1. being not fair-play

2. being indirect

3. acknowledging that you are not strong enough to take your opponents directly, or that doing so is suboptimal

4. relying in some way on deception

9 minutes ago, WHW said:

That's the general problem with making your "SUPER HONOR CLAN" also "MASTER OF TACTICS" clan. Tactics are, at their core, finding a way to create an unfair situation where you negate opponent's strength and multiply yours, or negate your weakness. Tactics are, kinda, "skorpion dishonorable" at their core. I suspect that's why majority of Lion Tactical Brilliance we saw ends up being "throw more people at them until they run out of their men but we don't run out of ours" - becuse majority of strategies and tactics involve:

1. being not fair-play

2. being indirect

3. acknowledging that you are not strong enough to take your opponents directly, or that doing so is suboptimal

4. relying in some way on deception

Generally in warfare, if you are strictly facing the enemy head-to-head, something has gone wrong. Head-to-head battles tend to be the bloodiest for both sides, and thus most commanders will avoid them unless there are no other options available.

...this is probably why the Matsu aren't really known for their brilliant tacticians...

Exactly. This is also why, in many RPG sources, Akodo is supposed to claim that the best kind of victory is the one where you don't even pull out your sword. But then again, Lion in sourcebooks is claimed to be much smarter and "Art of War-ish" than we have seen over the years in practice.

Then again, I saw people heatily arguing that Lion should not use scouts, because scouts are dishonorable, because they are stealthy, and thus Lion army for sure has no scouts, and any evidence if them having scouts is just not getting the Lion by writers, soooooooooooooooooo.

12 minutes ago, WHW said:

That's the general problem with making your "SUPER HONOR CLAN" also "MASTER OF TACTICS" clan. Tactics are, at their core, finding a way to create an unfair situation where you negate opponent's strength and multiply yours, or negate your weakness. Tactics are, kinda, "skorpion dishonorable" at their core. I suspect that's why majority of Lion Tactical Brilliance we saw ends up being "throw more people at them until they run out of their men but we don't run out of ours" - becuse majority of strategies and tactics involve:

1. being not fair-play

2. being indirect

3. acknowledging that you are not strong enough to take your opponents directly, or that doing so is suboptimal

4. relying in some way on deception

There are different level of being deceitful. In German we would make the distinction between Heimtücke and Kriegslist (I am terribly sorry I don't know the correct English terms).

Heimtücke would be something like waiving the white flag to signal defeat just to catch the opponent off-guard when you attack anyways.

Kriegslist describes an act where you lead your opponent astray, basically that we have seen in the story. The Crane thought they had an advantage and were then caught in a pincer attack.

Heimtücke would be dishonorable, but a Kriegslist is still honorable behavior. Such a distinction must also exist in Rokugan.

9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Generally in warfare, if you are strictly facing the enemy head-to-head, something has gone wrong. Head-to-head battles tend to be the bloodiest for both sides, and thus most commanders will avoid them unless there are no other options available.

...this is probably why the Matsu aren't really known for their brilliant tacticians...

I don't think this is super accurate for pre-modern warfare. Field battles are head-to-head. Strategy did sometimes win pre-modern campaigns without a field battle, but it was pretty uncommon. The role of strategy in these campaigns was to ensure that the field battle(s) was fought in as favourable conditions as possible. And a lot of the strategy that was involved did not require anything dishonourable: it was maneuver, that took place over days, weeks or months, which secured lines of supply, caused attrition in the enemy army, and eventually forced a battle in terrain and circumstances of the general' choosing.

The same clan normally can't have both the largest and (arguably) the most trained/organised armies in the whole Rokugan AND have the most efficient leadership. Otherwise it just rolls over all the other clans. This always bothered me a lot : the Lion is supposed to have everything, and yet always comes short when it's money time !

Not necessarily. Again, sourcebooks tried to hammer the point that Akodo was supposed to say that "in war, anything that works is Honorable" and that original Akodo was SO SCORPION! in his thinking and writing that to protect his reputation, only the very smartest and bestest can get a look at the uncensored Akodo Stuff.

Japan loved Art of War, and Chinese love Zhuge Liang. Both were adamant about deception and playing unfair being the best thing; one of legendary accomplishments of Zhuge Liang was to defeat a sieging army by opening the gates, sending all soldiers away, and placing himself in a highly visible tower playing playing music.

Enemy army retreated because sieging general decided that there must be something going on and if he took the bait, he probably would get massacred and humiliated :P.

Now imagine trying to do something like this in Rokugan using Lion...

I think there is a confusion between playing smart and playing unfair.

You have armies, you have battlefields. Everything you do there is fine whatever and any way you do it, it's okay.

Poison, murders, sabotage, this is not playing fair.

15 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I don't think this is super accurate for pre-modern warfare. Field battles are head-to-head. Strategy did sometimes win pre-modern campaigns without a field battle, but it was pretty uncommon. The role of strategy in these campaigns was to ensure that the field battle(s) was fought in as favourable conditions as possible. And a lot of the strategy that was involved did not require anything dishonourable: it was maneuver, that took place over days, weeks or months, which secured lines of supply, caused attrition in the enemy army, and eventually forced a battle in terrain and circumstances of the general' choosing.

I don't think this is entirely accurate, though it's not entirely inaccurate either. Let's take the second Peloponnesian War as an example, simply because it's one I know passably well

First off, since this is classical Greece, I think we can all agree this is a pre-modern conflict, I'm on pretty safe ground there. The war lasted 27 years, and during that time there were 2 major hoplite battles - this was the classic head-to-head match you're talking about, and which Greek commanders considered classic battle. The vast majority of the war was small skirmishes, ambushes, and naval battles (which were also ambushes - and oddly the Spartans dominated in this sphere over the theoretically better navies of the Athenians.)

Neither of the hoplite battles was decisive, especially in numbers or material won or lost. In this way, I don't agree with your premise. However, I will also concede that those battles swayed many of the other city-states around them to side with one or the other of the major powers, or to increase / decrease effort in the war. So they had a bigger influence on the course of the war than their actual outcome would warrant - on that side I do agree with you. But 2 battles over 27 years indicates that neither side was pushing heavily for that outcome, and both sides thought their ends would be better met by other types of fighting.

Relating more directly to L5R, one of the single most decisive elements in the war was the plague that struck Athens in the second year. It was devastating, and Athens never really recovered from it. You can debate whether that lost them the war or not, but there's no question it was highly influential. Random events like that can have a huge impact on the course of the war. L5R stories have tended to have natural disasters strike and influence the clans, but I think they're rarely as influential as they have been in history.

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

1 minute ago, WHW said:

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

The Crane are already hungry and, until Hotaru showed up, hurting. A siege would put pressure on them, starve them out, and, as Toturi suggested, bring about a surrender. A victory, with little bloodshed.

I liked this story overall, but I'm going to be a bit of a jerk and list a couple of serious issues I had with it:

-Tsuko and Arasou are idiots. I get that it's holding true to the original versions of the characters to make them brash and bloodthirsty to a fault, but it was one-note and aggravating.

-There are far too many adverbs used to show the tone of dialogue. It's incredibly clumsy to have three-quarters of your dialogue use "she hissed" (twice in a row for that one), "she roared", "he shouted", "he growled". If the story is written carefully, it's rare that adverbs describing how a character delivers dialogue are needed. The reader should be able to tell the speaker's tone from context.

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

Assaulting a fortified city is an even worse idea. Sieges have a higher success rate.

2 minutes ago, WHW said:

By the way, I wonder why Toturi is shown as the better and smarter general by trying to siege a fortified city...which is pretty high on "DO NOT DO UNLESS REALLY FORCED TO" list.

He knew who the enemy general was and knew that she would likely opt to quickly negotiate in order to shorten the siege rather than extend it during a famine.

You have to love when two Clans fight over a diamond mine.