Biggs is also about to take another hit when the Aggressor makes TLT Ruthlessness a thing.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Sorry to say this but that statement is plain wrong. In the end of the day the best ships/pilots/upgrades/factions are the ones that wins games. You are basically saying something could fail completly in tournaments but still be amazing because some random maths say so?

The amount of data to take into account is just too high to make any reliable math model without involving tournament statistics. Many people have tried to do that with other TCG or Wargames and they all failed completely.

There is a reason why people use tounament statistics to create their builds: its been proven to work. In my experience only players who have a chance to make many practices can create their own reliable data. They do that by cumulating their match statistics, not by making math models of game elements.

Plain wrong? You can also argue that the vast majority of players just lack the mathematical skillset required.

No, I am definitly not saying that something that according to math something can be good and then aweful in tournaments. That is just missrepresenting the argument to make it easier to attack. Thing is that bad matchups exist, so if there is one list that reliably beats Palpaces (say, K-Wings), they will not do as well in tournaments. However that doesn't change the fact that they were point for point better than for example BBBBZ while also being easier to fly with all the maneuver options.

6 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

So why is it then that " Palpatine was soooo OP and powerful ever and broken" and deserved the nerf, but nothing has been done to Biggs , nor I have any of these people suggesting it?

I´ll tell you why: they are mostly rebel players. Nerfing Palpatine was not about ability being broken.

Lots of people ARE suggesting biggs nerfs. And as someone strongly arguing against nerfing palpatine: I've been playing imperials lately. I won a store championship last weekend with imperials. What faction you play has nothing to do with it (if you're able to be at all objective about it).

5 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

That´s just not true. Palpatine Defenders did not dominate the competitive scene. See the 2016 results for yourself.

I've looked at them. They won a lot of regionals, at least one national, and came in top 4 at worlds. The fact that they weren't AS absurdly broken as dengaroo doesn't mean they weren't broken.

5 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

If the space design is so open, why is that I only see Defenders, /SFs and Decimators in the tables?

Oh... And the ocasional Omega Leader... (I assume because another defender or /SF didn't fit on the squad).

I'll have to check my definition of 'open space'... But using 4 out of 15 ships doesn't seem too 'open'ish to me.

Beats only seeing defenders and Lambda shuttles. Strikers have also been common right now.

5 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

True, I was looking from Imperial perspective the Biggs-ordnance nerf, my bad. But it still isn´t nearly as bad as what was done to Palpatine AND Defenders. Imperials took the biggest hit, despite they were already having hard time.

Let´s look at the stats of your "absurd level of jousting efficiency":

The best Imperial list was at 3rd place at the Worlds, and Imperials had two other lists in the top 8. Statistics don´t lie, I´m pretty sure nobody agrees with you that those are absurd rankings. Hell, that was supposed to be THE best that Imperials ever had, OP and broken, but yet they could not reach even a second place? How OP is that!

Imperials weren't having a "hard time". They were doing quite well. The reason they "only" ended up at third place at worlds is because everyone teched against defenders because they were the list to beat. And again, was less broken than dengaroo.

54 minutes ago, Fuzzywookie said:

You keep saying wait for the next nerf. You must know something. You've wrote articles for FFG. They must trust you with secrets. I just don't get why they didn't put the new nerf out before store championship season. ???

It's not hard to know a nerf is coming. When you look at the state of the meta, its an easy guess that ffg will do somehting about it. As for hwy they didn't put it out before store champs: probably because it takes time to playtest and balance said nerfs before releasing them.

I still maintain that the vast majority of issues with balance could be solved with a universal cost reducing mod for low PS ships.

4 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

I still maintain that the vast majority of issues with balance could be solved with a universal cost reducing mod for low PS ships.

Unlikely, as any patch that works for the Ewing is going to be massively overpowered on the Lothal Rebel, Contracted scout or Delta Defender.

And that's not even getting into ships who's jousters work but aces suck, like the Bwing or non-howlrunner tie fighters.

19 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

I still maintain that the vast majority of issues with balance could be solved with a universal cost reducing mod for low PS ships.

Universal becomes a problem when it hits ships like the TIE Fighter that really don't need a cost reduction.

14 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Unlikely, as any patch that works for the Ewing is going to be massively overpowered on the Lothal Rebel, Contracted scout or Delta Defender.

And that's not even getting into ships who's jousters work but aces suck, like the Bwing or non-howlrunner tie fighters.

Basically no generic ships are seeing use right now though, even TIEs. TIE Swarms haven't been a thing competitively since at least wave 7 and their use as filler is minimal because two red dice can barely hit anything right now.

My idea for that was

Mass Produced: Mod, You may not equip this card if your pilot skill is 6 or higher, You may equip an additional modification but you cannot equip any unique cards or cards with a cost of three or greater, -2 points

Maybe with an exception to the points limit for ordinance so cheap bombers and Ys can serve their big lore role. can make it Empire and Rebellion only if you want to reflect that they have production resources not really available to a bunch of pirates and thugs.

6 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

Basically no generic ships are seeing use right now though, even TIEs. TIE Swarms haven't been a thing competitively since at least wave 7 and their use as filler is minimal because two red dice can barely hit anything right now.

My idea for that was

Mass Produced: Mod, You may not equip this card if your pilot skill is 6 or higher, You may equip an additional modification but you cannot equip any unique cards or cards with a cost of three or greater, -2 points

Maybe with an exception to the points limit for ordinance so cheap bombers and Ys can serve their big lore role. can make it Empire and Rebellion only if you want to reflect that they have production resources not really available to a bunch of pirates and thugs.

TIE Swarms are actually in a pretty decent place right now since dengaroo disappeared and palp + x7 defenders got nerfed. Those were the two lists really pushing out swarms. And at -2 points per ship you could now runa 10 TIE swarm. No thanks.

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

TIE Swarms are actually in a pretty decent place right now since dengaroo disappeared and palp + x7 defenders got nerfed. Those were the two lists really pushing out swarms. And at -2 points per ship you could now runa 10 TIE swarm. No thanks.

Not a single TIE has made the top cut at world's for the last three years straight, nerfing something which only entered the game last year isn't going to help them much.

6 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

TIE Swarms are actually in a pretty decent place right now since dengaroo disappeared and palp + x7 defenders got nerfed. Those were the two lists really pushing out swarms. And at -2 points per ship you could now runa 10 TIE swarm. No thanks.

Interesting @VanderLegion , I'd love that if it were true. It's not at all around here or on high-level streams I've watched.

Prove it.

15 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

Mass Produced: Mod, You may not equip this card if your pilot skill is 6 or higher, You may equip an additional modification but you cannot equip any unique cards or cards with a cost of three or greater, -2 points

Triple Lothal Rebel

Delta x7 (x3) + generic Shuttle with baffle and system officer

5 shuttles with baffle

4 contracted scouts with R4 Agromech and trickshot

4 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Triple Lothal Rebel

Delta x7 (x3) + generic Shuttle with baffle and system officer

5 shuttles with baffle

4 contracted scouts with R4 Agromech and trickshot

1) hits like a truck but without access to their turrets they can be out arc dodged without too much difficulty. At zero agility it gets shredded by swarms.

2) interesting build but vulnerable to skilled arc dodging and high PS alpha strike.

3) see point 1

4) four two dice shots a turn isn't scary at all.

2 hours ago, Fuzzywookie said:

You keep saying wait for the next nerf. You must know something. You've wrote articles for FFG. They must trust you with secrets. I just don't get why they didn't put the new nerf out before store championship season. ???

I honestly don't know anything, but I've been around since Wave 1 and there have been more tweaks and changes to the game in the past 16 months than probably the rest of the time combined. I can only logically look and see that there are just a couple more ships to tweak and the game will be in a much better place. Just look at the Worlds 2017 results and how can you not come to the same conclusion?

2 hours ago, Princezilla said:

There are and have been plenty of competitive rebel lists without Biggs, I honestly haven't seen him all tournament season.

Wow, you have better stats than I sir. Guess I'm living under a rock competitively. I'm not trying to be combative or salty, we can disagree and share a mat and a pint, I love differing opinions. But on forums, there are always "facts" and then there are "facts" ...if you know what I mean. It's great to have discourse, and I know stats are for geeks and stats are for loosers, blah, blah, but there are stats. Even in banter, we should all get behind some agreements that can be born out buy independent collected and historical in nature, where data such as this can be found. When we find such sources, then we can digest it and use it to make points rather than make claims from simple personal experience, which is also very valuable, just not useful at impasses. Make sense?

I am on a conference call yet again; in which I am stuck, but I have no input in the matter thankfully; and I had some time in front of the LCD. Why must we all have jobs anyway? Hummmmmm? Well, anyway, so, I took a few moments and looked through Tournament results of all types starting in 2014 through today --once again-- that are listed online and easily referenced (a big thanks and shout out to @MajorJuggler , @sozin , and others who have the time and mental acuity to perform such tasks, I for one, do not) and I have once again found Biggs ALL OVER THE PLACE throughout the history of our beloved game. Even showing very strong during the first half of the year of our Lord 2017.

"Waiter," I quipped, "I'll have what @Princezilla is having." It's got to be so d*** good. I know, it's not 5 o'clock yet, yeah, yeah.

5 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I honestly don't know anything, but I've been around since Wave 1 and there have been more tweaks and changes to the game in the past 16 months than probably the rest of the time combined. I can only logically look and see that there are just a couple more ships to tweak and the game will be in a much better place. Just look at the Worlds 2017 results and how can you not come to the same conclusion?

I see this too. Yeah, the timing of recent FFG nerfings, releases and other things look untidy and suspect sure, but it is a business, and those guys are busy to be sure. @heychadwick is one of the most calm and logical voices for the game (unless TIE Phantoms or basic light Ales are discussed; to the latter I wholeheartedly agree there should be anarchy in the streets), and I think he hits the nail on the head. The outliers in the game that have been bending it are easily: 1) JK5 chassis, 2) JK5 chassis, 3) JK5 chassis, 4) Biggs, 5) Miranda/Sabine 6) TLTs and some say 7) Assaj/Latts (but I don't see it much and I cannot speak to it). Now X7s, Palp, Zuckuss and Manaroo have been whacked with the nerf bat and it's historical record. Yeah, we can argue over whether it was warranted or not in specifics, but overall, regardless your leanings, it's a good package. But the timing of the great nerf being heavy on the Empires best and a glancing blow to Scum that left Rebels untouched created as much or more salt than the nerfs themselves. Just poor management there FFG. But, not having Biggs, Mirada/Sabine, and the Jumps Chassis untouched but still being the absolute TOP of the game in their factions; well, means logically FFG should whack them too. That's Chadwick's logic, it's sound and clear.

And if they don't? Oh boy, they'll be obviously playing favorites, and more importantly they will prove the crazy forum conspiracy theorists correct.

I'm not crazy. I'm not I'm not I'm not. Ok. Maybe a little.

5 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

And if they don't? Oh boy, they'll be obviously playing favorites, and more importantly they will prove the crazy forum conspiracy theorists correct.

It doesn't, though. Biggs is a different case. He has existed from the beginning of the game. Every single Rebel ship, pilot, and upgrade has been designed around Biggs functioning more or less the way he does now.

So, in practice, if you significantly weaken or remove Biggs, you potentially weaken literally every ship, pilot, and upgrade the Rebels have available.

You could do something like, e.g., "Once per turn ... ," which seems pretty reasonable, but in actuality it's a near-meaningless change, because that just means you're giving your opponent the choice of whether to concentrate fire or not ... and "not" is almost always the right answer.

It's not as easy as people think.

29 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Wow, you have better stats than I sir. Guess I'm living under a rock competitively. I'm not trying to be combative or salty, we can disagree and share a mat and a pint, I love differing opinions. But on forums, there are always "facts" and then there are "facts" ...if you know what I mean. It's great to have discourse, and I know stats are for geeks and stats are for loosers, blah, blah, but there are stats. Even in banter, we should all get behind some agreements that can be born out buy independent collected and historical in nature, where data such as this can be found. When we find such sources, then we can digest it and use it to make points rather than make claims from simple personal experience, which is also very valuable, just not useful at impasses. Make sense?

I am on a conference call yet again; in which I am stuck, but I have no input in the matter thankfully; and I had some time in front of the LCD. Why must we all have jobs anyway? Hummmmmm? Well, anyway, so, I took a few moments and looked through Tournament results of all types starting in 2014 through today --once again-- that are listed online and easily referenced (a big thanks and shout out to @MajorJuggler , @sozin , and others who have the time and mental acuity to perform such tasks, I for one, do not) and I have once again found Biggs ALL OVER THE PLACE throughout the history of our beloved game. Even showing very strong during the first half of the year of our Lord 2017.

"Waiter," I quipped, "I'll have what @Princezilla is having." It's got to be so d*** good. I know, it's not 5 o'clock yet, yeah, yeah.

You want Stats? In 2015 worlds 0% of the top 32 lists contained a T-65 while 40.6% were Rebels. In 2016 2% of all points in the top 41 were spent on T-65s, which maths out to roughly three X-wings and I think one of those was a Wedge, while 24.4% of all the lists were Rebels, and not a single one of those made it to the top 16.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It doesn't, though. Biggs is a different case. He has existed from the beginning of the game. Every single Rebel ship, pilot, and upgrade has been designed around Biggs functioning more or less the way he does now.

So, in practice, if you significantly weaken or remove Biggs, you potentially weaken literally every ship, pilot, and upgrade the Rebels have available.

Good thinking, but the same could be said of the Emperor:

"So, in practice, if you significantly weaken or remove Palpatine, you potentially weaken literally every ship, pilot, and upgrade the Empire has available."

And in a way, it really did. So now the Empire squads have more TIE/SFs, RACs, TIE/FO, TIE Phantom, TIE Defender and that's about it competitively. Rebels might loose the mind warping Biggs, but there are ships that don't NEED him like T-70, YT-1300, YT-2400, K-Wings, E-Wings, etc. Seems like a similar sized list, no?

1 minute ago, Princezilla said:

You want Stats? In 2015 worlds 0% of the top 32 lists contained a T-65 while 40.6% were Rebels. In 2016 2% of all points in the top 41 were spent on T-65s, which maths out to roughly three X-wings and I think one of those was a Wedge, while 24.4% of all the lists were Rebels, and not a single one of those made it to the top 16.

That's a start, keep digging....

1 hour ago, Princezilla said:

Not a single TIE has made the top cut at world's for the last three years straight, nerfing something which only entered the game last year isn't going to help them much.

Well last year it was competing with Dengaroo and unnerfed Defenders, so...

In 2015, dallas parker was top 16, and drew bishop was also top 16 with whisper and miniswarm.

And crackswarm was doing quite well after wave 8 against deadeye scouts until dengaroo and defenders came along and smashed them into the ground.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Interesting @VanderLegion , I'd love that if it were true. It's not at all around here or on high-level streams I've watched.

Prove it.

At least one store championship has been won by a tie swarm lately.

3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Good thinking, but the same could be said of the Emperor:

"So, in practice, if you significantly weaken or remove Palpatine, you potentially weaken literally every ship, pilot, and upgrade the Empire has available."

That's my point, though: an entire faction was not designed around Palpatine. Nerfing him was both proper (as is probably the case for Biggs) and easy (as is not the case for Biggs).

It isn't that other Imperial ships are weaker without Palpatine; they're the same strength they were designed. Rebel ships were designed with Biggs in mind , so removing Biggs actually changes their design foundation.

9 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

That's a start, keep digging....

Additionally, of the six Empire lists which made top 16 at Worlds last year five of them contained Palp.

and in the top 41 19.5% of all lists were Palp Aces compared to the 2% for /all/ T-65s.

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Plain wrong? You can also argue that the vast majority of players just lack the mathematical skillset required.

What i'm saying is that to my knowledge it's never been done, by anyone. There are some elements that you cant translate in mathematical formulas, like metagaming or dials for x wing (because the same dial can be good for one ship and bad for another).

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

No, I am definitly not saying that according to math something can be good and then aweful in tournaments.

Well you are when you say: " Ah you talk about tournament statistics. Those are not as reliable as mathematicaly derived models to describe ship efficiency." In wargames, a unit efficiency is it's ability to win games (or help do so), period. What else could it be? Tournament results are the only thing that matters to measure a ship efficiency. Hence saying that any king of math models can be better than a thorough meta analysis through tournaments results is wrong.

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Thing is that bad matchups exist, so if there is one list that reliably beats Palpaces (say, K-Wings), they will not do as well in tournaments.

Then in that meta Palp Aces would be less effective.

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Thing is that bad matchups exist, so if there is one list that reliably beats Palpaces (say, K-Wings), they will not do as well in tournaments. However that doesn't change the fact that they were point for point better than for example BBBBZ while also being easier to fly with all the maneuver options.

Hence why math models are useless (and fail) in TCG and Wargames. It doesnt matter how good your math is supposed to be or how flawless you think your calculations are. If they dont win, they are not better.

13 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's my point, though: an entire faction was not designed around Palpatine. Nerfing him was both proper (as is probably the case for Biggs) and easy (as is not the case for Biggs).

It isn't that other Imperial ships are weaker without Palpatine; they're the same strength they were designed. Rebel ships were designed with Biggs in mind , so removing Biggs actually changes their design foundation.

I see your point Jeff, I really do. Your a sharp guy who types with thought, but I don't totally buy what your selling; most of it yes, just not the whole encyclopedia set. I guess the FFG team keeps all things like Biggs warping in mind during design to some degree sure, but I don't know if every ship in the Rebel arsenal is designed to have Biggs at it's side to work competitively. I know it's a difficult quandary for them, but hopefully so was Palp or the buff/reversal/nerf of the Defender. Either way, hard or not, Biggs is simply a real problematic game mechanic that the minor target lock end-around really failed to fix. I may be going out on a limb a bit here, but I would wager that Biggs is more valuable now for Rebel squads due to red dice creep than any older design constraints. Thing is, power creep has done that to many ships of every faction with only newly titled or new upgrades assisting them at times to stay competitive. I haven't much sympathies for the guys as they probably have stared at this issue for years and just haven't pulled the trigger.

I keep thinking that if he's only in your squad as a shield, he better be held on the side taking the blow to be a useful one.