4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

That is just nonsense and dividing your view of game balance into factions will always hamper anyones ability to judge the whole picture.

Palpatine was more powerful than Biggs on a much better frame - for 3 more points you got either the same effect without range one leash or you got to push your already highly efficient ships into absurd levels of jousting efficiency. Ships that also had all the tools for maneuvering. All that with better durability for a worse dial.

There are loads of nerf suggestions for Biggs out there, too. Like making him once per turn or avoidable with Target Locks. More importantly he has been nerfed already, before Palpatine, even with the change to how targeting with secondary weapons works. At the moment only scum can really abuse that unfortunately because of how ridiculous K4 is, but any piece of usefull ordnance can change that depending on its properties.

But the game IS divided into factions, right? Competitive factions.

I agree that Palpatine was good, as he should be with that price and the ship restriction. But absurd level of jousting efficiency? Basically it just one extra evade when your green dice failed you. And they always do.

Loads of Biggs nerf suggestions don´t mean anything as nothing has happened wave after wave. The small nerf for secondary weapons didn´t change anything and can hardly be called a nerf.

Just now, Pretty Green said:

But the game IS divided into factions, right? Competitive factions.

I agree that Palpatine was good, as he should be with that price and the ship restriction. But absurd level of jousting efficiency? Basically it just one extra evade when your green dice failed you. And they always do.

Loads of Biggs nerf suggestions don´t mean anything as nothing has happened wave after wave. The small nerf for secondary weapons didn´t change anything and can hardly be called a nerf.

The "small nerf" means that now your 40 point Poe/Norra/Miranda can be instagibbed by Dengar/Tel and triple boats. You are again only looking through the imperial perspective.

And yes, absurd levels of jousting efficiency. The math is out there, go look it up. The list on a whole was only beat by Dengaroo in that field at that time (Parattanni not being popular, yet). You can take this to your emotional perceptive level all you want, but descriptive statistics don't lie. Saying "it is only one evade" is the same as saying "Biggs is only a T-65, just shoot him". It is more than that. It is an evade that you get exactly when you need it. When your other 3 mods didn't do enough/where already exhausted (in which case you'd better take some damage, because you have been outplayed!) that when you don't need it becomes a miss -> crit conversion. The flexibility was just ridiculous.

16 hours ago, Elavion said:

That, and this opened up the design space for the imperium, since they no longer have to account for a free evade and a 28+ point lambda in every goddamn list.

If the space design is so open, why is that I only see Defenders, /SFs and Decimators in the tables?

Oh... And the ocasional Omega Leader... (I assume because another defender or /SF didn't fit on the squad).

I'll have to check my definition of 'open space'... But using 4 out of 15 ships doesn't seem too 'open'ish to me.

Before the nerf, at least we saw Interceptors, Lambdas, and the Advanced... now, not even those. So again, was the design space opened?... or closed even tighter?

Ah, but the aggressor is coming and it will save the imperials with its enormous versatility, right?

*Hint: enormous versatility = use it only for TLTs, disregard any other turret.

5 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

The "small nerf" means that now your 40 point Poe/Norra/Miranda can be instagibbed by Dengar/Tel and triple boats. You are again only looking through the imperial perspective.

And yes, absurd levels of jousting efficiency. The math is out there, go look it up. The list on a whole was only beat by Dengaroo in that field at that time (Parattanni not being popular, yet). You can take this to your emotional perceptive level all you want, but descriptive statistics don't lie. Saying "it is only one evade" is the same as saying "Biggs is only a T-65, just shoot him". It is more than that. It is an evade that you get exactly when you need it. When your other 3 mods didn't do enough/where already exhausted (in which case you'd better take some damage, because you have been outplayed!) that when you don't need it becomes a miss -> crit conversion. The flexibility was just ridiculous.

True, I was looking from Imperial perspective the Biggs-ordnance nerf, my bad. But it still isn´t nearly as bad as what was done to Palpatine AND Defenders. Imperials took the biggest hit, despite they were already having hard time.

Let´s look at the stats of your "absurd level of jousting efficiency":

The best Imperial list was at 3rd place at the Worlds, and Imperials had two other lists in the top 8. Statistics don´t lie, I´m pretty sure nobody agrees with you that those are absurd rankings. Hell, that was supposed to be THE best that Imperials ever had, OP and broken, but yet they could not reach even a second place? How OP is that!

2 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

True, I was looking from Imperial perspective the Biggs-ordnance nerf, my bad. But it still isn´t nearly as bad as what was done to Palpatine AND Defenders. Imperials took the biggest hit, despite they were already having hard time.

Let´s look at the stats of your "absurd level of jousting efficiency":

The best Imperial list was at 3rd place at the Worlds, and Imperials had two other lists in the top 8. Statistics don´t lie, I´m pretty sure nobody agrees with you that those are absurd rankings. Hell, that was supposed to be THE best that Imperials ever had, OP and broken, but yet they could not reach even a second place? How OP is that!

Ah you talk about tournament statistics. Those are not as reliable as mathematicaly derived models to describe ship efficiency. Just because Dengaroo and Miranda/Corran are problematic in a very similar way, doesn't mean Palpaces wasn't, too.

28 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

If the space design is so open, why is that I only see Defenders, /SFs and Decimators in the tables?

Oh... And the ocasional Omega Leader... (I assume because another defender or /SF didn't fit on the squad).

I'll have to check my definition of 'open space'... But using 4 out of 15 ships doesn't seem too 'open'ish to me.

Before the nerf, at least we saw Interceptors, Lambdas, and the Advanced... now, not even those. So again, was the design space opened?... or closed even tighter?

Ah, but the aggressor is coming and it will save the imperials with its enormous versatility, right?

*Hint: enormous versatility = use it only for TLTs, disregard any other turret.

F for reading comprehension.

"Open design space" means that they have more freedom in creating future expansions. Without having to account for Palpatine bending the math with every ship they release there's more they can do, and I'd expect the upcoming Kylo Interceptor to make use of that.

Tie Advanced don't see play because they lack autothrusters and are therefore vulnerable to the currently omnipresent turrets, not because of the palp nerf.

Interceptors don't see play mostly because of <insert Sabine's maniacal laugh here> and in part due to the resurgence of stressbots. Palp nerf has nothing to do with it.

Lambdas see less play partially because of the palp nerf, but also because Upsilon does a similar job and steals part of it's spotlight.

P.S. TIE Phantom and TIE Adv. Prototype both made it into top32 at European championships (and as far as I know, they both had Palp on deci). Coupled with what you listed, that's more variety than Scum and slightly less than rebels.

Yoda should be 0.5 crew slot.

44 minutes ago, Mu0n729 said:

Yoda should be 0.5 crew slot.

You know, Palpatine isn´t 2 crew slots fat. I always imagined the second slot is for his bodyguards. That, or he doesn´t want to cramp in with some petty officer.

Just wait until the next Nerf. It's coming. It will bring balance back. We don't need to un-nerf Palpatine.

21 hours ago, Fuzzywookie said:

Reverse Palp nerf. Make range 3.

Just apply the part of the nerf where you need to use him before rerolls. That would have been enough to balance him without making him totally useless.

I took a pole of mates with whom I play about old Biggsie. Please note: we're quite divided on our favorite factions and playstyles; the majority of blokes love the Rebels and second in love is Scum, just two of us nasty Imps. Anyway, we agreed --forum averages and crying notwithstanding-- that Biggs ability is more game changing than Palps was pre-nerf. No, we're not statisticians, but think on ignorant, simple guy like terms. Remember, Palp changes one die result, sure it's after a roll (or was) and can be a real difference maker to that one die, once a turn. However, Biggs potentially changes all die results you wish to occur at a priority target. Yeah, we fellas might see things simply, so be it. In addition, we also like the gameplay to, as close as it can be in a game, be rooted in cannon logic. The Emperor is an uber force using, personally and politically manipulative power that costs you 8 squad points and two crew slots and can only catch a ride on a sled of death that cannot turn around, joust, fight well, nor regenerate shields or hull. Biggs however is a great pilot that could cut between his squad mates and incoming fighters and draw the attackers ire and can regenerate health. But, he cannot manipulate minds or anything.....wtf? So, we proposed the following and it works well in gameplay and feels balanced:

Biggs Darklighter

Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if you are physically closer to the attacker and the attacker could target you instead .

"But no," says the child, "I want that TIE fighter to have to shoot through a Ghost to hit a range 3 Biggs on the other side." Come on little one, TIE pilots aren't that good 'a shots.

Man up Rebel pilots. Done.

......now where's my tea?

6 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

that Biggs ability is more game changing than Palps was pre-nerf. No, we're not statisticians, but think on ignorant, simple guy like terms. Remember, Palp changes one die result, sure it's after a roll (or was) and can be a real difference maker to that one die, once a turn. However, Biggs potentially changes all die results you wish to occur at a priority target.

Yep

8 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Biggs Darklighter

Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if you are physically closer to the attacker and the attacker could target you instead .

"But no," says the child, "I want that TIE fighter to have to shoot through a Ghost to hit a range 3 Biggs on the other side." Come on little one, TIE pilots aren't that good 'a shots.

Man up Rebel pilots. Done.

......now where's my tea?

Thats quite a good fix that would follow logic. how can he block attacks if hes not between the attacker and the ship(s) hes protecting? He would still be good but the player would need to put him more at risk to use his ability. I like that.

7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yep

Thats quite a good fix that would follow logic. how can he block attacks if hes not between the attacker and the ship(s) hes protecting? He would still be good but the player would need to put him more at risk to use his ability. I like that.

Biggs doesn't even have to be "between", just a tiny bit closer, anywhere in the attackers firing arc. It works guys , I'm telling you, it works; been playtested by us idiots ?

2 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Ah you talk about tournament statistics. Those are not as reliable as mathematicaly derived models to describe ship efficiency. Just because Dengaroo and Miranda/Corran are problematic in a very similar way, doesn't mean Palpaces wasn't, too.

Sorry to say this but that statement is plain wrong. In the end of the day the best ships/pilots/upgrades/factions are the ones that wins games. You are basically saying something could fail completly in tournaments but still be amazing because some random maths say so?

The amount of data to take into account is just too high to make any reliable math model without involving tournament statistics. Many people have tried to do that with other TCG or Wargames and they all failed completely.

There is a reason why people use tounament statistics to create their builds: its been proven to work. In my experience only players who have a chance to make many practices can create their own reliable data. They do that by cumulating their match statistics, not by making math models of game elements.

TBH I never understood the big hype over Biggs, he's been a consistent part of the meta but not an omnipresent one and prior to the release of IA he was kinda fringe. Yeah he's definitely obnoxious but he's far from gamebreaking.

8 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

TBH I never understood the big hype over Biggs, he's been a consistent part of the meta but not an omnipresent one and prior to the release of IA he was kinda fringe. Yeah he's definitely obnoxious but he's far from gamebreaking.

So was Palp...

5 minutes ago, Thormind said:

So was Palp...

No, Palp was definitely omnipresent. He was basically required if you wanted to run Empire.

45 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

TBH I never understood the big hype over Biggs, he's been a consistent part of the meta but not an omnipresent one and prior to the release of IA he was kinda fringe. Yeah he's definitely obnoxious but he's far from gamebreaking.

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

So was Palp...

30 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

No, Palp was definitely omnipresent. He was basically required if you wanted to run Empire.

Interestingly enough, this is the argument for Biggs. You can alter your quote for Biggs:

" No, Biggs is definitely omnipresent. He is basically required if you wanted to run Rebels ."

so, if Palp needed a nerf, then Biggs needs a nerf.

This is rocket science you know ?

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

Interestingly enough, this is the argument for Biggs. You can alter your quote for Biggs:

" No, Biggs is definitely omnipresent. He is basically required if you wanted to run Rebels ."

so, if Palp needed a nerf, then Biggs needs a nerf.

This is rocket science you know ?

There are and have been plenty of competitive rebel lists without Biggs, I honestly haven't seen him all tournament season.

I think what would have fixed palp better would have been to give him the kallus treatment. Have him work exactly like he did but for 1 called pilot at start only. Yeah it makes him useless when that pilot dies but no more so when you attempt to use him and fail. I hate this gamble mechanic added to him. People ***** about rng ALL DAY LONG in this game and they nerf the empire's best ability to mitigate that and left pretty much all of scum's and rebel's. I think that is where most of the salt is coming from and knowing, maybe just maybe, they will nerf the other 2 factions doesn't make this any less bitter a pill to swallow for people who enjoy flying imps. I own all three factions but I really don't like scum and rarely fly them and rebels are pretty similiar for me in terms of enjoyment so yeah I can understand at least some of the *******.

20 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Respectfully, I disagree; Yoda only used his powers to help pilots, such as Luke in training, when they weren't in focus at all. So my card text is far more Yoda like, IMO.

Agreed, Imperials are perfect. Punisher maybe could use a title to help it. Its scum and rebels that are OP. Nerf Sabine, and unfortunately like all scum, and the game will be balanced.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Just wait until the next Nerf. It's coming. It will bring balance back. We don't need to un-nerf Palpatine.

You keep saying wait for the next nerf. You must know something. You've wrote articles for FFG. They must trust you with secrets. I just don't get why they didn't put the new nerf out before store championship season. ???

41 minutes ago, Psalm 112 said:

Agreed, Imperials are perfect. Punisher maybe could use a title to help it. Its scum and rebels that are OP. Nerf Sabine, and unfortunately like all scum, and the game will be balanced.

The nerfs I want to see is rng mitigation stripping from both so sabine qualifies for rebels but scum are way more screwed up than a nerf can fix. I am not sure how to balance scum at this point past just dumping the whole faction in the trash.

Are we talking about Palpatine un-nerf after having him twice in top16 of Euros? Srlsy?

Looking at recent results we can agree that nerf bat hit Manaroo and Zukuss (to lesser extent) much more severely than Palpatine.

2 hours ago, Princezilla said:

No, Palp was definitely omnipresent. He was basically required if you wanted to run Empire.

It just showed he was needed in order for the faction to work. Look where the imperials are now...