7 minutes ago, Elavion said:

He's dead. He's so dead, in fact, that he won Brasil nationals as well as multiple store championships after the nerf.

He's not an auto-include anymore but he's far from useless. Get over it.

P.S. Palpaces were even more canerous than deadeye scouts. I'm glad they nerfed him.

That, and this opened up the design space for the imperium, since they no longer have to account for a free evade and a 28+ point lambda in every goddamn list.

So one example of national win resurrects him? Nope, and not even the top 16 at Worlds in Decimator.

Of course he´s not useless. He´s just horribly overpriced for what he does.

If he was auto-include, that just tells how tough Place Imperial were when they can´t compete with anything else tha Palpatine. You can see how well they did at Worlds.

12 minutes ago, Elavion said:

He's dead. He's so dead, in fact, that he won Brasil nationals as well as multiple store championships after the nerf.

You could substitute Jumpmaster in for "He" as well; as you substitute in "Worlds" and lots of "major and store" tournaments for "Brazil.

Also, "he" is still the only way to fly true, amazing, Imperial Aces....semi-retired or not; they're too fragile to fly otherwise. Imperials don't have Scum ships for heaven's sake.

3 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So one example of national win resurrects him? Nope, and not even the top 16 at Worlds in Decimator.

Of course he´s not useless. He´s just horribly overpriced for what he does.

If he was auto-include, that just tells how tough Place Imperial were when they can´t compete with anything else tha Palpatine. You can see how well they did at Worlds.

if he was "horribly overpriced" he wouldn't win anything . His nerf is what, 3 months old? 2 very good showings at the highest levels of play as well as multiple store champs win in such a short period is more than you can say about around half of upgrade cards in the game.

Palp nerf was somewhat overdue, but entirely justified.

32 minutes ago, piznit said:

What kinda cost you thinking? He would be amazing on the Falcon with Evade title or a Ghost

Did you read my first post or just the one edited by @clanofwolves ? My idea for the cost was to prohibit the ship from rolling additional attack dice.

I'm kinda tired of text altering nerfs tbh, it should be something reserved for only the most extreme cases of unbalance like with the Phantom cloaking. Palp was kind of a special case in that he completely destroyed the build diversity for his own faction by being so obviously better for the points then anything else in addition to making huge chunks of ship classes totally unviable. This meant that as he was even if he wasn't overwhelming more powerful then everything he was dangerously toxic to the game meta. The Jumpmaster isn't as blatantly OP as the prenerf Phantom and doesn't lock out entire ship catagories, it's just slightly over performing for it's cost and lacks an obvious counter like DeciVader was for Fel back when he dominated. I think the best 'nerf' for it would just be to provide that counter in a new release.

27 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Did you read my first post or just the one edited by @clanofwolves ? My idea for the cost was to prohibit the ship from rolling additional attack dice.

I read the post, I like it. I didn't see a cost though. Were you thinking 8 points like Palp?

44 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So one example of national win resurrects him? Nope, and not even the top 16 at Worlds in Decimator.

Of course he´s not useless. He´s just horribly overpriced for what he does.

If he was auto-include, that just tells how tough Place Imperial were when they can´t compete with anything else tha Palpatine. You can see how well they did at Worlds.

As Elavian said, if he was horribly overpriced, he wouldn't have made top 16, or won a nationals and several store championships so far. That's now how the game works. Horribly overpriced cards just...don't get used. If a card is winning events, then it's fine.

41 minutes ago, piznit said:

I read the post, I like it. I didn't see a cost though. Were you thinking 8 points like Palp?

Point cost. Got it. I would pay 8 for that, but probably just one crew slot.

If you are going to house rule, why not bring the Jumpmasters down a peg or three instead of bringing Palp back up?

11 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

If you are going to house rule, why not bring the Jumpmasters down a peg or three instead of bringing Palp back up?

Tried that. Doesn't work, they're still just as good if you attach em directly to the base, even with NO pegs!

The other problem with nerfing the Jumpmaster is that there is no easy way of doing that without making it unplayable or fundamentally altering the identity of the ship.

4 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

The other problem with nerfing the Jumpmaster is that there is no easy way of doing that without making it unplayable or fundamentally altering the identity of the ship.

... Wut?

1 minute ago, Princezilla said:

The other problem with nerfing the Jumpmaster is that there is no easy way of doing that without making it unplayable or fundamentally altering the identity of the ship.

yea, pretty much the only options are to alter cardboard stats, alter ship upgrade options on pilot cards (removing torpedo slots, for example), altering pilot costs on pilot cards, and sweaping upgrade nerfs that hit other ships harder (Extra munitions as small ship only, for example)

4 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

The other problem with nerfing the Jumpmaster is that there is no easy way of doing that without making it unplayable or fundamentally altering the identity of the ship.

Huh?

7 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

The other problem with nerfing the Jumpmaster is that there is no easy way of doing that without making it unplayable or fundamentally altering the identity of the ship.

If done haphazardly, yes. If careful thought and testing go into it, I do feel it should still be fine. Considering the Jumpmaster's current identity is underpriced jack-of-all-trades, it could use some fundamental altering.

32 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

The other problem with nerfing the Jumpmaster is that there is no easy way of doing that without making it unplayable or fundamentally altering the identity of the ship.

Just require it to have a title

Limits it to 1 ship

Ups the cost by 12

Problem solved

Either make it more expensive or take away a slot or two. Not too hard. I'd remove a torpedo slot and make the trashtromech part of the title. And if it's house rules and nobody plays the Jumpmasters, what's the problem?

39 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

... Wut?

39 minutes ago, Fuzzywookie said:

Huh?

39 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

yea, pretty much the only options are to alter cardboard stats, alter ship upgrade options on pilot cards (removing torpedo slots, for example), altering pilot costs on pilot cards, and sweaping upgrade nerfs that hit other ships harder (Extra munitions as small ship only, for example)

Precisely this. Slightly changing the wording on an ability or upgrade is one thing, altering the base stats, point value or upgrade slots is something else entirely and completely overkill in this situation. The Jumpmaster is undercosted by a couple points, it's not some unbeatable gamebreaking super ship, this is underlined by the fact that there are a number of well used and competitive Scum builds which don't use it, whereas prenerf it was borderline unthinkable to see Empire lists without Palpatine competing on a national level.

21 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

Precisely this. Slightly changing the wording on an ability or upgrade is one thing, altering the base stats, point value or upgrade slots is something else entirely and completely overkill in this situation. The Jumpmaster is undercosted by a couple points, it's not some unbeatable gamebreaking super ship, this is underlined by the fact that there are a number of well used and competitive Scum builds which don't use it, whereas prenerf it was borderline unthinkable to see Empire lists without Palpatine competing on a national level.

Which is very suggestive of the state of the scum as a faction and Imps as a faction. Neither Palp or the Jumpmaster are/were unbeatable, but that didn't change the fact that some felt that they were too much. And while there are some good Scum builds without it, there is still the fact that Jumpmasters are seen in the majority of top Scum lists should be as worrying as Palp, if not more so.

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Which is very suggestive of the state of the scum as a faction and Imps as a faction. Neither Palp or the Jumpmaster are/were unbeatable, but that didn't change the fact that some felt that they were too much. And while there are some good Scum builds without it, there is still the fact that Jumpmasters are seen in the majority of top Scum lists should be as worrying as Palp, if not more so.

I think its more indicative of the herd mentality which always follows Worlds where everyone thinks the key to easy victory is to copy parts of the winning list. There are better ways to fix the problem then neutering the ship because you don't like the meta.

Just now, Princezilla said:

I think its more indicative of the herd mentality which always follows Worlds where everyone thinks the key to easy victory is to copy parts of the winning list. There are better ways to fix the problem then neutering the ship because you don't like the meta.

The overused herd mentality argument. Heard it many times, but it only goes so far. There are plenty of innovative and skilled players that want something new. That there are still so many Jumpmasters out there suggests that there is a overriding benefit to playing with them that other ships don't have.

If you believe there are better ways, list them. What are we missing?

1 hour ago, Fuzzywookie said:

Huh?

THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH NERFING THE JUMPMASTER IS THAT THERE IS NO EASY WAY OF DOING THAT WITHOUT MAKING IT UNPLAYABLE OR FUNDAMENTALLY ALTERING THE IDENTITY OF THE SHIP!

May be that extra munitions will be small ships only one day, that would tame Jumpmasters just a bit more, make it one to two points more expensive with Torpedos. It's not enough, but there might be something like that coming to the direction of JM5K's..

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The overused herd mentality argument. Heard it many times, but it only goes so far. There are plenty of innovative and skilled players that want something new. That there are still so many Jumpmasters out there suggests that there is a overriding benefit to playing with them that other ships don't have.

If you believe there are better ways, list them. What are we missing?

New counters are the best way, things that make running it riskier. Maybe a missile/torp that does bonus damage to large based ships or let's you remove an upgrade if they hit. Or a buff to swarms which in the past have been one of the best checks to turret ships. My point being that the sky falling retoritic is overblown and it's always better to fix things by adding more options elsewhere then removing them from something. Fundimentally altering the way models play and totally removing certain options is old GW territory and it's never a good line to cross.

Not sure if people are already forgetting after few months how horrible Palpatine was, it wasn't even fun anymore, now it is less powerful, but still playable in X-Wing. Too much clinging on one card, no card should be that strong, it is better that combinations of upgrades, ships and pilots make strong squads. I hope that people would adjust already the nerfs that have been made some months ago..