14 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

Additionally, of the six Empire lists which made top 16 at Worlds last year five of them contained Palp.

and in the top 41 19.5% of all lists were Palp Aces compared to the 2% for /all/ T-65s.

Yes, you're still proving my point. Focus on Biggs and expand beyond World's too.

Palp is nerfed, this is fact. He still one of the Empire's only go-too's sadly, but he's using a walker in 2017, not a cane.

4 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I may be going out on a limb a bit here, but I would wager that Biggs is more valuable now for Rebel squads due to red dice creep than any older design constraints.

That's a good point, and maybe it can be the kernel of an idea:

Biggs Darklighter, 25 points, If you are in the firing arc at Range 1-3 of an attacking enemy ship, if it does not attack you, it may not modify [eyeball] results on its attack dice.

Quote

I haven't much sympathies for the guys as they probably have stared at this issue for years and just haven't pulled the trigger.

Which, ironically, is why I do have sympathy for them: it just isn't an easy puzzle to solve.

Just now, clanofwolves said:

Yes, you're still proving my point. Focus on Biggs and expand beyond World's too.

Palp is nerfed, this is fact. He still one of the Empire's only go-too's sadly, but he's using a walker in 2017, not a cane.

Your point of what? Biggs isn't a vital component of any viable Rebel list, in fact he is barely a presence in the top tiers of the game. He has shown up twice in the best 73 lists of the last two years

7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

What i'm saying is that to my knowledge it's never been done, by anyone. There are some elements that you cant translate in mathematical formulas, like metagaming or dials for x wing (because the same dial can be good for one ship and bad for another).

Well you are when you say: " Ah you talk about tournament statistics. Those are not as reliable as mathematicaly derived models to describe ship efficiency." In wargames, a unit efficiency is it's ability to win games (or help do so), period. What else could it be? Tournament results are the only thing that matters to measure a ship efficiency. Hence saying that any king of math models can be better than a thorough meta analysis through tournaments results is wrong.

Hence why math models are useless (and fail) in TCG and Wargames. It doesnt matter how good your math is supposed to be or how flawless you think your calculations are. If they dont win, they are not better.

You are still not getting my point. Tournament results will only ever show you what is popular, which, while mostly intersecting, ist not equal to what is good. For X-Wing mathematical models do exist that, while certainly not perfect, are pretty accurate.

4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

You are still not getting my point. Tournament results will only ever show you what is popular, which, while mostly intersecting, ist not equal to what is good. For X-Wing mathematical models do exist that, while certainly not perfect, are pretty accurate.

Generally the top lists at tournaments ARE what is good, and popular because of that. Paratanni didn't win all but 1 system open pre-nerf just because it was popular. It won because it was a monster that could kill almost anything it came up against. Same thing with dengaroo before that.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

Generally the top lists at tournaments ARE what is good, and popular because of that. Paratanni didn't win all but 1 system open pre-nerf just because it was popular. It won because it was a monster that could kill almost anything it came up against. Same thing with dengaroo before that.

Like I said, mostly intersecting - however Parattanni was possible for longer than it was popular. Was it not good before? Hard to believe.

44 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

At least one store championship has been won by a tie swarm lately.

So you are using one data point from an iffy source to prove tie swarms are in a good place? By that qualification, Wedge is good with his recent Store Champ win. That's not a strong argument.

4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Like I said, mostly intersecting - however Parattanni was possible for longer than it was popular. Was it not good before? Hard to believe.

This is true to a degree, there was only one single solitary A-Wing in the entire top 41 at last worlds yet that guy made it all the way up to the top 4. So heard mentality does have a dramatic effect of tournament stats, a ship can't win if its never used and a ship thats used all the time is going to win more often, however it can't we win tournaments for you. So if a ship is widely held to be popular and power yet almost never seen in the highest tiers of play(Biggs) its probably being over hyped.

18 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Like I said, mostly intersecting - however Parattanni was possible for longer than it was popular. Was it not good before? Hard to believe.

That goes back to what I've said in other threads about the meta evolving. Just because something is possible doesn't mean that people will think of it right away. The fact that it took months to show up doesn't make it any less powerful. There might be other power squads out there waiting to be discovered, but it doesn't meant he ones winning aren't also powerful.

5 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

You are still not getting my point. Tournament results will only ever show you what is popular, which, while mostly intersecting, ist not equal to what is good. For X-Wing mathematical models do exist that, while certainly not perfect, are pretty accurate.

I do get your point and i think its flawed. You've made that king of arguments for some post i have made regarding the Palp/defenders nerf.

You assume that tournament results show only how many time a built (or ship/pilot/upgrade) won (or got high ranking). If that was the case you would be 100% correct but that's not how it works. A good meta (or tournament results) analysis will take into account the ratio # buit played/# wins (or good rankings) and the size or the tournaments. Many people use List Juggler meta analyser because it does just that.

@Admiral Deathrain I'd also like to point out that in the last 3 worlds, 2 of the 3 winning lists have come out of nowhere. In 2015, poe was a thing int he meta already, but Paul's winning list was a new creation. Similarly this year, the winning list had Tel Trevura of all pilots. Not exactly a popular choice. Both have BECOME popular after their respective worlds wins, but weren't before hand. Dengaroo last year was a popular list, but that's also because the math gave Dengar over 100 points jousting efficiency as the only ship fighting in the list...

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

@Admiral Deathrain I'd also like to point out that in the last 3 worlds, 2 of the 3 winning lists have come out of nowhere. In 2015, poe was a thing int he meta already, but Paul's winning list was a new creation. Similarly this year, the winning list had Tel Trevura of all pilots. Not exactly a popular choice. Both have BECOME popular after their respective worlds wins, but weren't before hand. Dengaroo last year was a popular list, but that's also because the math gave Dengar over 100 points jousting efficiency as the only ship fighting in the list...

There is a good reason for this, copying a meta list may give you an easy effective list that you don't have to put thought in to assembling but it also gives you a list which everyone is expecting to face and planning counter strategies to.

I'll weigh in...

I think the card text Nerf for palp is fine, having to declare his use before hand is OK.

BUT

As many are saying he should have either had his squad points reduced OR reduced him to one crew slot VS. two.

As far as jumpmasters are concerned, considering FFG only singled out manaroo with a range limitation I feel that something else is in the pipeline for Rebels and Imperials that will keep the Jumpmaster in check it, may be a ship(s) or upgrade(s) or a combination of the two. This is just a feeling however... and I have no facts to back that claim up.

14 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

"Lots of people ARE suggesting biggs nerfs. And as someone strongly arguing against nerfing palpatine: I've been playing imperials lately. I won a store championship last weekend with imperials. What faction you play has nothing to do with it (if you're able to be at all objective about it)."

-Well it seems that it´s always the same players are the most vocal about Palpatine being OP, even if they don´t have anything to back up that claim.

"I've looked at them. They won a lot of regionals, at least one national, and came in top 4 at worlds. The fact that they weren't AS absurdly broken as dengaroo doesn't mean they weren't broken."

-As I said, one in top 4, 3 in top 8 does not qualify as broken or OP. Dengaroo wasn´t the only list that did better than the alledgedly best, OP broken list Empire ever had.

"Imperials weren't having a "hard time". They were doing quite well. The reason they "only" ended up at third place at worlds is because everyone teched against defenders because they were the list to beat. And again, was less broken than dengaroo."

-There will always be some lists you have to be prepared for, so no change here since Wave I. And again, Dengaroo and Palpatine were not the only lists at the top.

1 hour ago, Pretty Green said:

-As I said, one in top 4, 3 in top 8 does not qualify as broken or OP. Dengaroo wasn´t the only list that did better than the alledgedly best, OP broken list Empire ever had.

Because just about everyone teched as much as possible to kill defenders at that worlds. If a combo is OP and everyone knows it's going to be there, they're going to plan to kill it. Sometihng being OP doesn't mean it's unbeatable Look at Whipser/Fat Han back in the day. Whisper was absolutely OP, but never won worlds either, because it could be beaten, so people just...brought stuff to kill it. In the case of defenders, the other massively OP list at the time, dengaroo, happened to be pretty good against defenders as well (though neither really hard countered the other).

And you don't need 5/8 of the top or something to be one list to be OP. Does you think Dengaroo was overpowered? (Hint: It was). It only had 1 in the top 4, and 2 total in the top 8, but absolutely was also an OP list. There were more Defenders than Dengaroo int he top 8, and also more defenders than dengaroo in the top 16.

Also, people arguing that palp is now useless, or overcosted, or whatever, and begging for the nerf to be rolled back seem to ignore the fact that he *still* showed up in the Top 16 at worlds and has won multiple store championships since worlds. Cards that are useless and/or several points/slots overcosted *don't see competitive play* or win multiple events. They might win *A* store championship in a small enough meta or if it's a good enough player, but not multiple, and aren't making top 16 at worlds.

6 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Also, people arguing that palp is now useless, or overcosted, or whatever, and begging for the nerf to be rolled back seem to ignore the fact that he *still* showed up in the Top 16 at worlds and has won multiple store championships since worlds. Cards that are useless and/or several points/slots overcosted *don't see competitive play* or win multiple events. They might win *A* store championship in a small enough meta or if it's a good enough player, but not multiple, and aren't making top 16 at worlds.

Yes, Palp was on the RAC in the top 16 at Worlds. Palp then only had to worry about Whisper to protect and just maybe RAC if need be, there was little need for the Emperor's old insurance policy. Did he ride the old squeaky Lambda with two fragile aces at his side? Nope! A big fat Nope! Heck, the Howard brother's would tell you Plap was old news even before the nerf, he was already semi-retired for the people who wanted to win Worlds regardless the faction. But yes, he's still the Empires best crew card even though he's not as good and still crazy expensive at 8 points and 2 crew slots, as in compared to, I don't know, Sabine Wren at 2 points and 1 crew slot that adds a bomb to any ship and damage on top of that bomb. Are you actually listening to what you type man? ...wait, can one listen to what one types? Anyway, at the new ability, he's too expensive and fat, period. Does he get used, h*** yeah at the top, cause he has to be used, there ain't a better crew card to choose from. AND you still cannot win at the top with him; not Worlds before, certainly not now. The Empire IS lagging behind in game abilities post FAQ 4.3.2; that my friend is an absolute undeniable fact that the stats bear out no matter what store championships are cherry picked. Let's get beyond that part of the discussion, it's ignorant. Not picking on you at all @VanderLegion , you're a great guy on-line and seemingly a great player, it's just the facts bear out some simple truths that I think are skewed or overlooked. Will they roll back Plap? Odds are, h*** no; a strong h*** no, so that's a fools errand. Can he still be used? Yes, obviously. Should they have reduced his cost in some way due to his reduced power over the game especially in comparison to other strong crew cards ability to effect the game? Absolutely. Especially in light of their known inability to lower the other factions high outliers the same way that X7 and Palp were lowered. It was just piss-poor the way it has come about.....now this last sentence is obviously opinion and not intended to bring credibility to my points. Sorry.

....now where's my tea? It's not 5:00 as of yet.

20 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:

I'll weigh in...

I think the card text Nerf for palp is fine, having to declare his use before hand is OK.

BUT

As many are saying he should have either had his squad points reduced OR reduced him to one crew slot VS. two.

As far as jumpmasters are concerned, considering FFG only singled out manaroo with a range limitation I feel that something else is in the pipeline for Rebels and Imperials that will keep the Jumpmaster in check it, may be a ship(s) or upgrade(s) or a combination of the two. This is just a feeling however... and I have no facts to back that claim up.

They would have to keep him at 2 because of Whisper.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes, Palp was on the RAC in the top 16 at Worlds. Palp then only had to worry about Whisper to protect and just maybe RAC if need be, there was little need for the Emperor 's old insurance policy. Did he ride the old squeaky Lambda with two fragile aces at his side? Nope! A big fat Nope!

...so what? he's still there, who cares if it was on a decimator instead of a lambda?

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Heck, the Howard brother's would tell you Plap was old news even before the nerf, he was already semi-retired for the people who wanted to win Worlds regardless the faction.

Duncan howard played him at the 2016 worlds and ended up top 4. The Nerf was months before 2017 worlds, so who knows what would have happened if Palp hadn't been nerfed. But again, he made top 16 anyway.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

But yes, he's still the Empires best crew card even though he's not as good and still crazy expensive at 8 points and 2 crew slots, as in compared to, I don't know, Sabine Wren at 2 points and 1 crew slot that adds a bomb to any ship and damage on top of that bomb.

What does sabine have to do with the palp argument? Plenty of people think sabine (or slam, or something in the sabine/slam bomb drop combo) needs a nerf as well. Another faction having something that's arguably too good has no bearing on a discussion about a different card. New palp can still change one die every round, he just htakes a bit more thought now (and hsa the potential to "fail").

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Are you actually listening to what you type man? ...wait, can one listen to what one types?

....not sure what you're even trying to say here.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Anyway, at the new ability, he's too expensive and fat, period. Does he get used, h*** yeah at the top, cause he has to be used, there ain't a better crew card to choose from. AND you still cannot win at the top with him; not Worlds before, certainly not now.

Once again, cards that are too expensive by as much as people claim palp is now *don't get used competitively*. Especially into the cut at worlds. And imperials might not have many good imp only pilots, but there ARE other crew cards to choose from. People played decimators and lambda shuttles long before palp came around. Or you can...not fly crew ships and fly something else. No one's forcing you to take a large ship with palp. As for not winning at the top with him, you don't have to win worlds to still be a playable/competitive card, and he still made the cut, which is far more than a lot of cards can say.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

The Empire IS lagging behind in game abilities post FAQ 4.3.2; that my friend is an absolute undeniable fact that the stats bear out no matter what store championships are cherry picked. Let's get beyond that part of the discussion, it's ignorant.

I've never argued that empire isn't behind right now. They have less faction-only cards, and they've won less and are weaker currently than scum. What I've argued is that palp isn't useless now, he's still quite playable, and that imperials arne't unplayable right now, they can still do well, just not in the same form they used to.

My argument is (and has been for a long time) that the problem isn't the empire. The problem is scum. When jumpmasters (and possibly mindlink) get nerfed, I think the empire will be fine. They have quite a few good ships, they just don't have broken OP ships/combos like scum does.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Especially in light of their known inability to lower the other factions high outliers the same way that X7 and Palp were lowered.

It's not like they've just ignored other outliers and said "Whatever, screw the empire". There's been 3 nerfs so far affecting the jumpmaster. Now obviously, they haven't worked and the JM5K is still a problem, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying. They just havne't gotten it right yet. More nerfs will be coming.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

...so what? he's still there, who cares if it was on a decimator instead of a lambda?

Anyone who plays them cares a great deal; in a Lambda, he has to guess which Ace to protect now ahead of a roll, use to be simple: the one who's dice failed =HUGE difference.

Duncan howard played him at the 2016 worlds and ended up top 4. The Nerf was months before 2017 worlds, so who knows what would have happened if Palp hadn't been nerfed. But again, he made top 16 anyway.

You obviously didn't follow his jump to Scum pre-nerf and his reasons why, they're just pain better Aces and support ship, no contest, pre-nerf! Palp Aces weren't going to get to the top 4 regardless the nerf, TLTs and stresshogs tried, but Miranda/Sabine saw to that.

My argument is (and has been for a long time) that the problem isn't the empire. The problem is scum. When jumpmasters (and possibly mindlink) get nerfed, I think the empire will be fine. They have quite a few good ships, they just don't have broken OP ships/combos like scum does.

Scum sure, but Rebel OP too, Sabine, Miranda and that **** stolen TIE (just because the highest placing TIE should be Imperial, just because d*** it!!)

It's not like they've just ignored other outliers and said "Whatever, screw the empire". There's been 3 nerfs so far affecting the jumpmaster. Now obviously, they haven't worked and the JM5K is still a problem, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying. They just havne't gotten it right yet. More nerfs will be coming.

The three nerfs did jack stinking squat, squat, squat to the JK5; it's the chassis you idiots!!! (that's for corporate, not you or players who have no say). If they would have corrected the chassis, the rest of the nerfs wouldn't be necessary, IMO.

We have game nights where NO FAQ's are used and we call them "originally designed format." You know what, honestly, they are far more fun, regardless your bent than the stinking mess we have now; it's arguably pathetic.

Sorry......I'm over the top again. I might just need a beer, what time is it?

I'll go tonight and fly one game I want too with cannon ships and love life, and then fly Scum.......get that criminal feeling again.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

The three nerfs did jack stinking squat, squat, squat to the JK5; it's the chassis you idiots!!! (that's for corporate, not you or players who have no say). If they would have corrected the chassis, the rest of the nerfs wouldn't be necessary, IMO.

We can definitely agree on that. The nerfs have forced them into marginal changes (mindlink instead of deadeye on scouts, manaroo has to keep in range) but yah, hasn't really weakened em any. The only list they truly killed was dengaroo, which...was already out of th emeta by the time the faq finally hit.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

We have game nights where NO FAQ's are used and we call them "originally designed format." You know what, honestly, they are far more fun, regardless your bent than the stinking mess we have now; it's arguably pathetic.

Out of curiousity, how many people bring stuff that was killed by the nerf to those nights? Deadeye scouts, commonwealth defenders, etc?

On 6/8/2017 at 0:29 PM, Tbetts94 said:

They would have to keep him at 2 because of Whisper.

good point, didn't even think of that.

On 6/8/2017 at 1:57 PM, clanofwolves said:

We have game nights where NO FAQ's are used and we call them "originally designed format." You know what, honestly, they are far more fun, regardless your bent than the stinking mess we have now; it's arguably pathetic.

Sorry......I'm over the top again. I might just need a beer, what time is it?

You aren't weird I do this too. Competition makes this game breakable but the game really isn't that bad when OP options are there to fight OP options. Not this time soaked onesided farce of balance.

3 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

You aren't weird I do this too. Competition makes this game breakable but the game really isn't that bad when OP options are there to fight OP options. Not this time soaked onesided farce of balance.

Dengaroo v Whisper/Echo

Rauboats v Commonwealth Defenders