Getting ahead here a bit but Viktor says " After defending, if you did not roll exactly 2 defense dice, the attacker receives 1 stress token."

His timing window clearly follows the 2nd TLT attack. I think RAW would indicate that Viktor would (normally) roll two dice twice so a total of four dice while defending. So, Viktor will always hand out stress to TLT carriers? (unless you have structural damage crit)

That would be my reading.

Similarly, would him spending an evade token (acquired via Intensity or Cool Hand) count towards the number of dice he rolled?

It'll need FAQing.

Spending an evade token won't count, since adding a result is definitively not the same as rolling dice.

The TLT thing.... well, I guess RAW it would stress the attacker, yeah.

Adding results or re-rolling dice will not matter.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did some FAQ magic on this to make it work a little like Gunner, where "after you perform an attack that did not hit" becomes "after you perform two attacks that both did not hit". So Viktor vs TLT would be "after defending twice, if you didn't roll exactly two defense dice either time...".

To be clear, I don't think that's an interpretation that's supported by the cards as printed, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the way FFG eventually declares that it should work.

Yeah because they would have to rule it like that... Poor TLT, we should clearly not have something good against it...

5 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Getting ahead here a bit but Viktor says " After defending, if you did not roll exactly 2 defense dice, the attacker receives 1 stress token."

His timing window clearly follows the 2nd TLT attack. I think RAW would indicate that Viktor would (normally) roll two dice twice so a total of four dice while defending. So, Viktor will always hand out stress to TLT carriers? (unless you have structural damage crit)

Hah, just by defending you would double stress BTL Y-Wings if you're at Range 3!

Winds up being quadruple stress for the attacker, if they have R3-A2 and use it on both attacks!

19 hours ago, Sparklelord said:

Hah, just by defending you would double stress BTL Y-Wings if you're at Range 3!

Winds up being quadruple stress for the attacker, if they have R3-A2 and use it on both attacks!

Lets be honest, for that BTL Y wing, there's not really much difference between double stressed and quadruple stressed. We both know that it's never getting an action again with only those green straights.

On 6.06.2017 at 10:30 PM, Sparklelord said:

Hah, just by defending you would double stress BTL Y-Wings if you're at Range 3!

Winds up being quadruple stress for the attacker, if they have R3-A2 and use it on both attacks!

Range 3 does not give you additional green die, because the opponent is using Secondary Weapon (TLT). EDIT: my mistake as per @thespaceinvader below.

I was searching for different options of using Hel's pilot ability consistently and my best shot is Stealth Device at the moment, though it is not very reliable, even with EU and AT. No option to do evade action is so painful on this kind of ace... But I think Hel has some good builds, not top tier but good and versatile (i.e. SD and BMST = every other round you are able to use BMST).

Range 3 gives you an extra die against the primary, then the secondary being TLT gives you the stress again.

Note that BTLA4 is being discussed...

Stealth Device/Scavenger Crane is how I've tried to run Viktor but it tends to fall off very quickly and then he just dies.

2 hours ago, SaszaPL said:

Range 3 does not give you additional green die, because the opponent is using Secondary Weapon (TLT). EDIT: my mistake as per @thespaceinvader below.

I was searching for different options of using Hel's pilot ability consistently and my best shot is Stealth Device at the moment, though it is not very reliable, even with EU and AT. No option to do evade action is so painful on this kind of ace... But I think Hel has some good builds, not top tier but good and versatile (i.e. SD and BMST = every other round you are able to use BMST).

It's not a particularly great idea: but Intensity with EU, AT, & SD would at least let you Intensity boost for an Evade...but then you have no Focus token...

Overall, based on the timing chart, any ship attacking with a TLT would receive a stress - I can see them FAQing this for "reasons" so it doesn't, however TLT vs. a 2 defense die ship with 5 total health is good enough to deserve getting stressed for the effort... EDIT: So very, very wrong. Hel's ability triggers in step 8. TLT second shot triggers in step 9. So no. No no no. Sadly, though totally deserved , the TLT attacker DOES NOT get stressed.

Quote

8. Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” (that do not perform an attack)

i. Resolve abilities of player with initiative

ii. Resolve abilities of other player

9. Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Player with initiative chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

ii. If no ability was chosen in step (i), the other player chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

iii. Any abilities that were not chosen, are added to the step 9 of the next attack

Nope. Look where the line about 'attacks as part of a perform this attack twice weapons is...

22 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope. Look where the line about 'attacks as part of a perform this attack twice weapons is...

Well poodoo. You would be most correct...so then Hel would stress a TLT attacker as, when we get to Step 8, you have rolled exactly two dice twice while defending and 2x2=4? EDIT: Or, more importantly, rolling exactly 2 defense dice twice is not equal to rolling exactly 2 defense dice.

17 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

It's not a particularly great idea: but Intensity with EU, AT, & SD would at least let you Intensity boost for an Evade...but then you have no Focus token...

Yea, then you would like to have this Attani Mindlink, but hey, you EPT slot is already occupied... He is one action on Action Bar short or one EPT slot or... He is just missing something to be really good. Now it seems that you won't e able to maximize the use of his skill.

I strenuously disagree.

I don't really think it's about the timing windows, it's about whether it makes any sense to perform arithmetic at all. It's about whether this a qualitative or quantitative test. A logical or versus an arithmetic sum .

We have disagreement about qualitative tests like Cluster Missiles and Munitions Failsafe. We can understand that two qualitative logical tests happen, and that they're joined by an inclusive or. If (first attack hits) or (second attack hits), then you don't have an attack that "did not hit," and Failsafe wouldn't prevent the discard. With an inclusive or, (hit) or (miss) does not equal (did not hit). If we interpret Viktor Hel the same way, if either (on the first attack Viktor Hel did not roll exactly two dice) or (on the second attack Viktor Hel did not roll exactly two dice) is true, then the attacker would receive a stress. However both are false, and in terms of the logical syntax of an inclusive or "either (false) or (false)" is false. If it's a qualitative test, [ rolling exactly two defense dice ] twice is still [ rolling exactly two defense dice ]. In the language of formal logic, by idempotency, A or A is A. You can't take an inclusive or, plug in the value "A" both times, and come out with "not A."

Viktor Hel presents the first trigger I can think of where a check applied to a "perform this attack twice" weapon might be arithmetic. As written, any Viktor Hel interpretation will either have to discard logic (where the union of A and A is A) or arithmetic (2 + 2 =4). Personally, I think it's silly say Viktor Hel rolled four dice, since wasn't a defense dice roll of four dice. I'm sure some folks would find it silly not performing arithmetic. There are times, however, where it isn't mathematically appropriate to add numerals. A silly example is two people who are individually too short for a "You must be this tall to enter" ride don't get to combine their heights to enter together. Likewise, I just think it's illogical to add the dice of the two rolls, when no roll of the dice was other than two dice.

//

Off to the side, if a TLT/R3-A2/Title Y-Wing attacked Viktor Hel at range 2 and used the stressbot twice, you wouldn't take 4 stress. Non-attack "after attacking/defending" abilities happen before abilities which perform attacks. The primary weapon attack of the Y-Wing would happen first, Victor would roll exactly 2 dice in Step 4, and his ability wouldn't trigger in step 8. Then after step 9, you'd perform a pair of TLT attacks from step 1, which would bring us to another "after defending" check in step 8, which may or may not provide a 3rd total stress.

Good point.

Plus, there are scenarios in which you may have different value of agility on either roll (Stealth Device, crit card, Tractor token, etc.) which means that technically it is possible as well...

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Off to the side, if a TLT/R3-A2/Title Y-Wing attacked Victor Hel at range 2 and used the stressbot twice, you wouldn't take 4 stress. Non-attack "after attacking/defending" abilities happen before abilities which perform attacks. The primary weapon attack of the Y-Wing would happen first, Victor would roll exactly 2 dice in Step 4, and his ability wouldn't trigger in step 8. Then after step 9, you'd perform a pair of TLT attacks from step 1, which would bring us to another "after defending" check in step 8, which may or may not provide a 3rd total stress.

It would *if Hel was at range 3 of the Stresshog* which was the case under discussion.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It would *if Hel was at range 3 of the Stresshog* which was the case under discussion.

Fair. I guess I skipped first entry, just saw the quoted "four stress"

Not that'll really matter to the 'Hog, anyway. 2 extra stress tokens isn't really going to talk him out of shooting you.