So i was having a discussion about whether or not i was going to bother getting any elves to take advantage of Kari's ability. Archers dont really tickle my fancy in a Daqan list, considering i see them as an MSU not a single nonunique unit, a single or even pair of Scions could be an interesting speedbump but we already got runegolems for that, and that leaves Leonx Riders which for some reason i remembered them being "weaker" than Oathsworn but more mobile.

Relooked at their cards and dial. Wtf?

Leonx and Oaths roll similar dice (1R2B vs 2R1B), both have Impact, and both have 2 armor 1 hp.
The major difference is Leonx are NOT immobile, capable of both high speeds and turning/shifting shenanigans while Oaths are fast in a straight line but terrible at turning and lack a Shift at all. Furthermore, Leonx's surge adds a mortal strike once and a hit after that, Oaths get an inspiration token.
Oaths get access to Equipment at all levels, while Leonx get Music.

After seeing how similar Deathknights were to Oathsworn (slightly slower, more expensive, but deadlier) i was kinda taken aback at the leonx riders. Did FFG hold a ton of value in the inspiration surge and/or Equipment slot or something? Leonx riders are cheaper, faster, can actually turn/get out of a bumpercar situation, and hit harder. Dunno about other daqan players but the inspiration for 2 surges almost never happens for me and when it does i usually prefer to reroll it for a hit to finish my target off.

Of course after all this i realized only Infantry can be included by Kari, but my comparison stands. Wtf?

Oathsworn hit at a faster Initiative remember that. And they have a harder hitting red attack. And can Armor up. Plus they rally at a faster point too.

I also have had the inspiration be useful for refreshing Tempered Steel or Moment of Inspiration a few times.

Though the Leonx do get initiative 3 special. And Hunter Guise is pretty useful on them.

Kari's ability only lets you bring in non-unique Infantry units. The Leonx Riders are cavalry. The Derpwoods are the only option for her that's been announced so far.

4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Kari's ability only lets you bring in non-unique Infantry units. The Leonx Riders are cavalry. The Derpwoods are the only option for her that's been announced so far.

Read the last sentence.

1 minute ago, TallGiraffe said:

Read the last sentence.

I think the last sentence was added in an edit between when I read it and when I posted.

14 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The Derpwoods

Pure gold.

I made a thing for comparison purposes:

Quote

I see you have the right one on top

Yeah that illustrates them pretty well.

Oaths and DKs are practically the same for the cost. In a head on fight the DKs would win purely because of +1 armor and added mort strike, but they lack a 4speed charge/their movement is slower initiative/oaths can attack first w/o mods. Didnt even notice they also had a shift earlier, wonder if they noticed how many issues the oaths have without that ability.

Leonx Riders are clearly better in every way except they dont have the exact same upgrade options. Which, depending on cards they have access to, may or may not mean much.

I imagine DKs were designed to tank since their anti-mort strike surge and 3 armor makes them pretty bulky. Leonx Riders and Oaths wouldnt fair so well against them alone, but they should be able to avoid the DKs to begin with.

Pros of cavalry:

• 2 Red 1 Blue is better than 2 Blue 1 Red. The riders converting surges to damage helps mitigate that, though.
• Being able to attack first on 3 with a +1 defense beats attacking on 4 with a morale.
• Equipment seems better than music for now .

Elves like music.

i will give you that. Right now equipment is definitely better than music as things like Tempered Steel or Wind Rune are amazing while the only Music i really hold any value in that isnt a figure upgrade is Metered March because it lets you stop before you bump or stop at the optimum distance for a charge next turn while not poking your nose into archers' range this turn. But even then, its a limited use item while the equipment stuff sees CONSTANT use lol

4 tray though Leonx get 4 upgrades where Oathsworn and Death Knights only get 3.

44 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yeah that illustrates them pretty well.

Oaths and DKs are practically the same for the cost. In a head on fight the DKs would win purely because of +1 armor and added mort strike, but they lack a 4speed charge/their movement is slower initiative/oaths can attack first w/o mods. Didnt even notice they also had a shift earlier, wonder if they noticed how many issues the oaths have without that ability.

Leonx Riders are clearly better in every way except they dont have the exact same upgrade options. Which, depending on cards they have access to, may or may not mean much.

I imagine DKs were designed to tank since their anti-mort strike surge and 3 armor makes them pretty bulky. Leonx Riders and Oaths wouldnt fair so well against them alone, but they should be able to avoid the DKs to begin with.

Remember the DK charge increases the speed by one.... So they are faster charging at initiative 3.

I'm with @Budgernaut : the inconsistencies in card text are starting to bug me. First, there is "Front Line" Rune Golem vs. "Frontline" Aymhelin Scion. Now look at the column for Trays on the image above. For some reason the Death Knights have "Tray #" listed instead. I'm going to try not to let such things bother me, but I've been trained to pick up on all those little details when I proofread manuscripts. It's slightly irritating.

3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I'm with @Budgernaut : the inconsistencies in card text are starting to bug me. First, there is "Front Line" Rune Golem vs. "Frontline" Aymhelin Scion. Now look at the column for Trays on the image above. For some reason the Death Knights have "Tray #" listed instead. I'm going to try not to let such things bother me, but I've been trained to pick up on all those little details when I proofread manuscripts. It's slightly irritating.

Hopefully those will be caught before the card is printed. Send them an email if you want.

In certain situations, I can see Leonx outshining the Oathsworn as they should. However, there are MANY instances (and there will be more as more upgrades are added) where Oathsworn seem to outdo the Leonx. I'll try to list a few:

1. For mowing down infantry, the Oathsworn will probably work faster. They have a 2R1B over 1R2B. For this purpose, I would argue that red dice are often better than blue. This is of course not a universal truth since you have situations where figure sniping comes into play and there may be times where that surge ability here and there is crucial. But if you just look at the unit card, where the leonx need 2 surges to get a hit for example. The Oathsworn are more likely to have just rolled the hits in the first place. This obviously shifts further to the Leonx side of things where high armor targets are confirmed, but I believe those will be about equal for 2-armor targets. Unit-size also matters here.

2. Skill Action. For the Oathsworn, it's a blue modifier. If it was white, I think we could generally say it was better. The problem with the Leonx is that they need to essentially waste a whole turn to pull off an action. I mean, they can reform but big whoop. Things like dispatch runner can work quite well as a blue modifier on the oathsworn. It seems to me that most skill action upgrades will simply be better on the Oathsworn than the leonx.

3. I agree that, for now at least, equipment is better than music. This is especially true for cavalry since the infantry figure upgrades don't come into play here.

4. Engaged attack options. This is essentially a comparison of Spearmen to Reanimates. The Spearmen often just have a better melee attack since they can hit earlier if they need to, or they can hit much harder later. The 'morale' modifier for the leonx certainly isn't bad, but with only 1 red die, you're usually only looking at a sev-2 test at most which isn't terribly impressive.

Now of course the Oathsworn lose in terms of mobility, but I've found that doesn't usually matter too much as your mobility is often quite restricted in the deployment phase in the first place. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that I think that in many cases, the Oathsworn will shine brighter than the Leonx. They are close enough in cost and value that I think a skilled player will make great use of either unit. I just found the initial premise of the thread that Leonx were a better deal than the Oathsworn funny because my reaction was pretty much the opposite. One thing I DEFINITELY agree on though, is that 2 surges for an inspiration token usually sucks compared to rolling more hits. That will only get more true with Hawthorne throwing out inspiration all over the place willy-nilly.

Good analysis, I think head on Oathsworn may have the advantage. I think the Leonx is going to utilize its mobility for flanking maneuvers though. Increasing the attack to 2 red, 2 blue. And on subsequent turns if Oathsworn attack early with 3 defense, Leonx can use surges for a mortal strike.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

Remember the DK charge increases the speed by one.... So they are faster charging at initiative 3.

Never noticed this (as I read only what I believe is there, meaning I don't read at all). Thanks.

i just noticed the Leonx Riders also have the +1 charge modifier, but they also have a 4speed march.

Huh....FFG actually made a situation thats impossible since 4 is the longest template. Given that basehopping isnt a thing in this game they could easily just faq it to "Do a 4 speed, then do a 1speed" but still kinda funny that they flopped on that one.

The rule is youre only allowed to do movements that you have templates for. Just like cavalry could do a 4 turn.

The Leonx Riders can't add either a surge or a hit as a modifier for their melee attacks and have no way to boost their defense. Not having a surge modifier will make those surge abilities harder to get off.

4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i just noticed the Leonx Riders also have the +1 charge modifier, but they also have a 4speed march.

Huh....FFG actually made a situation thats impossible since 4 is the longest template. Given that basehopping isnt a thing in this game they could easily just faq it to "Do a 4 speed, then do a 1speed" but still kinda funny that they flopped on that one.

They covered that in the rules in the section for 'Movement Modifiers'.

RRG, pg. 15:
"If a movement’s speed is higher than the speed on the available templates of that type, the player uses the template of that type with the highest available speed value."

They also have turn speed 4. It is too bad they are too fast for the game.

10 hours ago, Ywingscum said:

Good analysis, I think head on Oathsworn may have the advantage. I think the Leonx is going to utilize its mobility for flanking maneuvers though. Increasing the attack to 2 red, 2 blue. And on subsequent turns if Oathsworn attack early with 3 defense, Leonx can use surges for a mortal strike.

It's going to be so challenging to avoid being flanked by Leonx, too. They can shift-2 on the charge, so moving past them doesn't make you safe. With turning shift options and white reforms, they'll be very difficult to flank, as well.

Given their incredible mobility and resulting high suitability for flanking, it's unsurprising that they weren't given 2 red 1 blue -- adding a third red on top of that would be pretty (non-keyword) brutal.