The first thing I thought about when the StarViper Mk II was spoiled was how SSSSZ would compare to BBBBZ. A little more hull, a lot less shields, access to boost, PS 1.

But then, looking at the card spread, the PS 1 generic is not included in the new Guns for Hire. To run quadviper Z I would need to buy four blister packs and two of the new expansion. The new expansion comes with two generic pilots, both PS 5, and two copies of the new title. This leads me to the belief that the new generic must be costed 28 points, not the 29 that is currently the popular theory. The PS 3 is 27 points, there is the PS 4 unique, the PS 5 generics, and then Guri is 30.

FFG, though, is pretty good about the costing and pricing and not forcing us to by excessive copies of ships, just multiples here and there. If I buy two copies of Guns for Hire and two blister packs, I will have four models, four titles, two each of the old generics, two each of the named pilots, and four PS 5 generic pilot cards.

If previous pattens hold, (28-3)x4 =100. I could fly four of the PS 5 generics (with adaptability or trick shot if they have an EPT) in a 100 point list with my four models, the four titles, and the cards that come with those packs.

If the generic costs any more than that I am convinced they would have included at least one copy of one of the old generic pilots so that you weren't required to buy old blisters for pilots for your new models.

Am I too optimistic?

If this is the case, will the PS 4 unique cost the same as the PS 5 generic? Will they follow the TIE aggressor pricing and the PS 5 not have an EPT for the matching cost?

9 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

The first thing I thought about when the StarViper Mk II was spoiled was how SSSSZ would compare to BBBBZ. A little more hull, a lot less shields, access to boost, PS 1.

But then, looking at the card spread, the PS 1 generic is not included in the new Guns for Hire. To run quadviper Z I would need to buy four blister packs and two of the new expansion. The new expansion comes with two generic pilots, both PS 5, and two copies of the new title. This leads me to the belief that the new generic must be costed 28 points, not the 29 that is currently the popular theory. The PS 3 is 27 points, there is the PS 4 unique, the PS 5 generics, and then Guri is 30.

FFG, though, is pretty good about the costing and pricing and not forcing us to by excessive copies of ships, just multiples here and there. If I buy two copies of Guns for Hire and two blister packs, I will have four models, four titles, two each of the old generics, two each of the named pilots, and four PS 5 generic pilot cards.

If previous pattens hold, (28-3)x4 =100. I could fly four of the PS 5 generics (with adaptability or trick shot if they have an EPT) in a 100 point list with my four models, the four titles, and the cards that come with those packs.

If the generic costs any more than that I am convinced they would have included at least one copy of one of the old generic pilots so that you weren't required to buy old blisters for pilots for your new models.

Am I too optimistic?

If this is the case, will the PS 4 unique cost the same as the PS 5 generic? Will they follow the TIE aggressor pricing and the PS 5 not have an EPT for the matching cost?

Imperial Aces and Imperial Veterans are here to tell you FFG doesn't care if you have to buy old copies of the expansion to get the pilots. I had to buy 2 defenders and 2 Imperial Veterans to fly my vessery/ryad/delta squad when vets came out because vessery and the delta are on the same cardboard base, and you need to vets to get titles for 3 ships. If you wanted to run triple deltas with TIE/D and cannons, you needed 3 defender blisters and 2 vets.

I think the better reason to leave out the PS1 and 3 pilots is that they...still arne't very good with the new title. Sure, they're BETTER than they were, but you can still take a matching PS protectorate with the concord dawn title for a point cheaper. And the starviper REALLY wants the system slot from the virago title, which mostly makes all of the generics less than amazing, because if you only run 1 to use virago, why not take a named pilot.

Does that mean you think it will be 29? I think defenders are a little different because they are priced about a third of a list, instead of a quarter. Triple x7 wasn't something that was designed around, or they would have included either 1 or 3 copies of the titles, instead of two copies of each title.

Royal Guard Interceptors are 22, so you can take four of them with Push the Limit. There is no way that was a coincidence.

I think we have all mostly come to the conclusion that ships are probably priced like this and changed if playtesting shows they are too far out of whack, and not with some mathwing algorithm.

Just for the record, even with the cute barrel roll... SSSSZ is likely to be really boring. I would urge you to try the build before you buy it. It can lead to regret.

I for one won't play more than 1 starviper or kasjdkhfbvmd, i dont even need a 2nd one, so I'm just printing proxies and having fun that way.

3 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

Does that mean you think it will be 29? I think defenders are a little different because they are priced about a third of a list, instead of a quarter. Triple x7 wasn't something that was designed around, or they would have included either 1 or 3 copies of the titles, instead of two copies of each title.

Why shoul dit matter if it's a third of a list or a quarter? It doesn't change the fact that a list that plenty of people talked about before IV was 3 deltas with tie/d and cannons, and it fits pretty much perfectly into a 100 point list. Who says they didn't design around it? Two copies of each title is just the standard for a fix pack.

3 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

I think we have all mostly come to the conclusion that ships are probably priced like this and changed if playtesting shows they are too far out of whack, and not with some mathwing algorithm.

I think the developers design costs more to PREVENT certain things as opposed to making it fit just right (like 4 PTL royal guards, which...isn't really a thing anyway). Pretty sure the only reason the x-wing was 21 points was so you couldn't lfy 5 in a list. Even though 21 is too expensive. SImilarly, protectorate at 20 so you can't run 5 with title, PS3 striker at 20 so oyu couldn't run 5 with crackshot, etc. They're so busy trying to prevent certain combos that they instead make the generics too expensive to be actually good.

6 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Imperial Aces and Imperial Veterans are here to tell you FFG doesn't care if you have to buy old copies of the expansion to get the pilots. I had to buy 2 defenders and 2 Imperial Veterans to fly my vessery/ryad/delta squad when vets came out because vessery and the delta are on the same cardboard base, and you need to vets to get titles for 3 ships. If you wanted to run triple deltas with TIE/D and cannons, you needed 3 defender blisters and 2 vets.

I think the better reason to leave out the PS1 and 3 pilots is that they...still arne't very good with the new title. Sure, they're BETTER than they were, but you can still take a matching PS protectorate with the concord dawn title for a point cheaper. And the starviper REALLY wants the system slot from the virago title, which mostly makes all of the generics less than amazing, because if you only run 1 to use virago, why not take a named pilot.

It is a very odd choice. For all the Rebel Alt Paint Expansions (Rebel Aces, HotR) they come with all the low skill generic. For the Imperial Alternate paint expansions they do not include the generic pilots, instead they give a "veteran" generic with 5 Pilot skill and an EPT.

For the G4H they did well both, the Kihraxz pilot cards includes both the Cartel Marauder and Black Sun Ace (not a unique pilot as it was before TFA). While the Star Viper pilots cards comes with their own Black Sun... something.

I definitely agree it's an odd choice, and would much rather all aces packs included all generics from the original expansions.

8 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

lack Sun Ace (not a unique pilot as it was before TFA)

Not sure what you mean here? Black Sun Ace was never unique

Just now, VanderLegion said:

I definitely agree it's an odd choice, and would much rather all aces packs included all generics from the original expansions.

Not sure what you mean here? Black Sun Ace was never unique

Before Ace used to be a faceless unique name like Red Ace or Omega Ace.

7 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Before Ace used to be a faceless unique name like Red Ace or Omega Ace .

Black Sun Ace was actually the first ace in the game. Then TFA gave us 5 unique ones because they didn't have actual names to use. Then the protectorate went back to the generic version for the Concord Dawn Ace.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Black Sun Ace was actually the first ace in the game. Then TFA gave us 5 unique ones because they didn't have actual names to use. Then the protectorate went back to the generic version for the Concord Dawn Ace.

Yeah I know, this was more at the TFA naming conventions where "Ace" and "Leader" now became unique names. I understand Disney didn't give them any licensing leeway on the ships and they were to release them under Disney's time table and not theirs. It is what it is.

Lets have a look at the Ace packs:

A-Wing already had an Elite generic
B-wing didn't get one
TIE/Interceptor had one and got a better one (but no cheap generics)
TIE/Bomber got one (but no cheap generics)
TIE Defender got one (but no cheap generics)
T-70 already had one
Flacon got an overpriced non-elite generic
StarViper is getting one
Kihrazx already has one

There's no pattern here. FFG doesn't care how people want to fly these ships, they just want your money.

I didn't see BBBBZ as anything good I don't see SSSSZ being any better

3 Starvipers would be the max I would put in a list.

I already put 1 in almost every Scum list and she is so OP I think taking more would just be unfair

Y'all are really down on BBBBZ it seems like. B wings are hurt a bit by TLT, they are one of the hardest hit by plasma torpedoes, and the 2k is blocked by big based ships. Replacing a B with a Rookie T-65 with Integrated Astromech helped with the k-turn, but lost the barrel roll.

StarVipers will have a higher defensive variance, but otherwise seem better all the way around. Their dial is clearly better, the bank boost could potentially be better, and having boost is better. I'm sure it won't set the meta on fire, but it doesn't seem that bad.

It's possible it's 28 pts. I'd like to see it, just to see more generics on the table.

11 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Sure, they're BETTER than they were, but you can still take a matching PS protectorate with the concord dawn title for a point cheaper. And the starviper REALLY wants the system slot from the virago title, which mostly makes all of the generics less than amazing, because if you only run 1 to use virago, why not take a named pilot.

I wouldn't say that the Fang Fighter is ALWAYS a better choice. I think they are a bit different. They have different dials and titles. I think one can suit your play style better. I'll even counter that perhaps 2 x StarVipers and 2 x Fang Fighters might be a good mix. Fang Fighters get in your face while the StarVipers don't.

Yes, the Virago title is good and gives a System, but you don't have to have a system to mean it's a good ship. Yes, it's better with a System, but I don't think it's a bad ship without.

12 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Imperial Aces and Imperial Veterans are here to tell you FFG doesn't care if you have to buy old copies of the expansion to get the pilots. I had to buy 2 defenders and 2 Imperial Veterans to fly my vessery/ryad/delta squad when vets came out because vessery and the delta are on the same cardboard base, and you need to vets to get titles for 3 ships. If you wanted to run triple deltas with TIE/D and cannons, you needed 3 defender blisters and 2 vets.

I think the better reason to leave out the PS1 and 3 pilots is that they...still arne't very good with the new title. Sure, they're BETTER than they were, but you can still take a matching PS protectorate with the concord dawn title for a point cheaper. And the starviper REALLY wants the system slot from the virago title, which mostly makes all of the generics less than amazing, because if you only run 1 to use virago, why not take a named pilot.

I prefer the new PS1 Starviper at 22 more than a titled PS1 Protectorate.

More beefy, and you will not joust so many things at ps1. You want to be a blocker, and 1bank barrel rolls are stunning for that.

KKKKZ might be the better option in a formation that just wants to joust. There is plenty of room to throw some missiles in for a decent Alpha strike. Or soon KKKKS with the 12 point Syck.

If you want a K-Fighter heavy swarm, 5 of them with 1 point illicits, Thread Tracers, Munitions Failsafes, Guidance Chips and Vaksai title is going to be hard to beat.

You can always mix generic StarVipers with generic Kihraxzs.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

If you want a K-Fighter heavy swarm, 5 of them with 1 point illicits, Thread Tracers, Munitions Failsafes, Guidance Chips and Vaksai title is going to be hard to beat.

4 mindlinked black sun aces (specifically: mindlink, tracers, chips, vaksai, vectored thrusters, pulsed ray shields and BMST).

I have you beat. not saying that Kihraxz swarms are actually good in any configuration

2 hours ago, Cerve said:

I prefer the new PS1 Starviper at 22 more than a titled PS1 Protectorate.

More beefy, and you will not joust so many things at ps1. You want to be a blocker, and 1bank barrel rolls are stunning for that.

And I'd rather have the titled PS1 protectorate for a point less. You know what happens to blockers a lot? They get shot at range 1.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

And I'd rather have the titled PS1 protectorate for a point less. You know what happens to blockers a lot? They get shot at range 1.

Mmm nope, they actually saves themselves from that, being bumped.

And when it don't, they getted shot at range 1 but out of arc. Will you ever joust a PS1 Protectorate? That will be your bad

Just now, Cerve said:

Mmm nope, they actually saves themselves from that, being bumped.

Sure, from the ship they block. But it's not uncommon if you block the ship in front to have others behind it bump THEM.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Sure, from the ship they block. But it's not uncommon if you block the ship in front to have others behind it bump THEM.

mmm...that's a bump chain that happens when the pilot cannot manage their ships. It happens to me when I was a beginner, but now the thing is so rarely that I will never build up a list for that.

Just now, Cerve said:

mmm...that's a bump chain that happens when the pilot cannot manage their ships. It happens to me when I was a beginner, but now the thing is so rarely that I will never build up a list for that.

I'm not building a list just for that, but there's plenty of situations besides a bump chain where you're gonna take range 1 shots. Opponent is flying in formation (such as a biggs list)? A blocker can easily take range 1 shots. Missed your block? You're gonna get shot int he face (unless they'd rather shoot someone else). As for taking range 1 shots from out of arc if you're blocking, that's your own fault. You can maneuver to make sure you have stuff in arc if you're the blocker.

Also, generally if you're flying a blocker less points is better.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

I'm not building a list just for that, but there's plenty of situations besides a bump chain where you're gonna take range 1 shots. Opponent is flying in formation (such as a biggs list)? A blocker can easily take range 1 shots. Missed your block? You're gonna get shot int he face (unless they'd rather shoot someone else). As for taking range 1 shots from out of arc if you're blocking, that's your own fault. You can maneuver to make sure you have stuff in arc if you're the blocker.

Also, generally if you're flying a blocker less points is better.

Mmm I disagree. And I still prefer the Viper, way more than the Protectorate.