I have a player with a character that has a FR of 4. He regularly rolls 15+ damage on Harm checks. He is about to dip to the darkside, which is narrative punishment enough, but it doesn't change the fact that combat encounters are difficult to balance.

Just curious if anyone has tips for creative ways to provide a challenge to someone that can do 15-20 points of damage through soak every time they take a turn. Our party has 7 players, only 1 real lightsaber, but are still strong enough to hold their own in combat.

What's the setting? Timeframe and status of the galaxy? What's the rest of the party like? What's the campaign scenario?

By the time someone has enough XP that they can manage FR 4+ (and supporting talents/power selection/etc), weapon-users ought to be able to do equivalent damage even with Soak being a factor. Combat at that XP value is generally pretty high damage regardless - the only way this might be an issue is if the rest of the party is non-combat oriented, and in that case he's still doing an important job of being their go-to damage dealer.

1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

What's the setting? Timeframe and status of the galaxy? What's the rest of the party like? What's the campaign scenario?

Yeah, I was thinking I should probably expand more.

The campaign takes place (very) shortly before the events of A New Hope. The players were very young children being raised by the Jedi order in a secluded temple that wasn't located by the Empire until at least a few years after Order 66 was initially executed. They got out, and were raised by a tribal people group on a planet with technologically current cities. They have since located the Jedi that managed to escape and get them to safety. He has tasked them with tracking down and recovering Force artifacts so he can begin to restore the Jedi Order. Whether the players want to be Jedi or not, in return for their help he has offered to teach them more about the force.

The players have around 500 post Character Creation XP. We have at least one character in every career. We are about to start chapter 2 of Chronicles of the Gatekeeper, after a 1-2 session interlude that could result in full lightsabers for most of the party.

The Twi'Lek Consular Sage/Arbiter is essentially a non-combat character. They actively RP ways to personally avoid combat when combat encounters do start. Their social skills are excellent and they use them well.

The Iktochi Sentinel Shadow/Artisan uses blaster pistols to decent effect and tends to be the computers and mechanics guy in the group.

The Whipid Guardian Warden is the quasi-leader of the group. He currently carries the real lightsaber (Greelwood Saber from Nexus of Power). He tends to jump into combat unarmed and tanks damage using Baleful Gaze to upgrade incoming checks 5 times.

The Zabrak Warrior Shi-Cho Knight/Aggressor loves to parry using his Vibrosword and soak more damage via high soak. His decision making tends to be more reckless.

The Human Mystic Seer attempted to build an avoidance tank. They tend to add 3-5 setbacks to incoming combat checks.

The Togruta Seeker Hunter/Ataru Striker favors a blaster rifle, but has begun to enjoy their training saber. They are the defacto-pilot of the group.

Finally we have the Togruta Seeker Pathfinder/Hermit. Has huge empathy towards animals, not so much towards sentients. They are the healer of the group, and the one that lets out bursts from Harm.

I know 7 players is a lot, and I manage pretty well. We have been going for over a year now. A few of the guys are duds in the RP department, but the group gets a long really well!

49 minutes ago, Garran said:

By the time someone has enough XP that they can manage FR 4+ (and supporting talents/power selection/etc), weapon-users ought to be able to do equivalent damage even with Soak being a factor. Combat at that XP value is generally pretty high damage regardless - the only way this might be an issue is if the rest of the party is non-combat oriented, and in that case he's still doing an important job of being their go-to damage dealer.

He might only be at FR 3.

EDIT

Nevermind, he is at 4. He bought into the Hermit tree. Aside from ranks in Medicine and Heal/Harm, he has worked his way to all 3 +FR talents in the two trees. No one in the party is really dishing out 15+ unsoakable damage.

Let him do his fun thing with Harm.

As far as ways to make it more of a challenge:

You could up the amount of adversary ranks the enemy big bad has, which if I'm correct should stack onto the opposed discipline vs discipline check that the player has to make when targeting an important npc/any pc.

Increase the numbers, as harm can only target so many living beings per round.

Use droids as some adversaries, as they are unaffected by Harm.

Give the big bad guys a high initiative roll so they go first.

Use the squad rules to protect the main villain with his minions.

Give out additional conflict for the player constantly drawing on the dark side with this power.

Use stimpacks, medic npcs, even the heal power if the enemy is a force user.

Fear checks on the PCs when appropriate.

Weapons with the Concussive quality to stop the PCs from taking actions.

Firstly, that's a cool sounding group - nice work! Heaps of interesting character configurations there.

As to the Harm situation, perhaps they could face some strong Force users who use Suppress (Guardian sourcebook) to dampen the effect of their Force powers? As they get more powerful, it is not unrealistic that they might attract others through the massive force ripples they're sending out. It is not unusual if some of those investigating the tremors in the Force knew how to protect themselves against Force powers.

To add to Groggy's list: add in a random Ysalamiri encounter! What, your force powers are suppressed? What a shame!

Have a light side force user turn up after hearing stories of this dark sider running around force killing people that happens to have FR 4 and every upgrade for protect and a boss discipline willpower 6, so able to soak up 6+ 3(or4)per extra pip + successes on an average discipline check + def =advantage rolled. If you dont damage him and he rolled enough pips he gets that damage reflected right back at him.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

Have a light side force user turn up after hearing stories of this dark sider running around force killing people that happens to have FR 4 and every upgrade for protect and a boss discipline willpower 6, so able to soak up 6+ 3(or4)per extra pip + successes on an average discipline check + def =advantage rolled. If you dont damage him and he rolled enough pips he gets that damage reflected right back at him.

You just managed to sound like the worst kind of vindictive GM, good job. OP, whatever you do, DON'T follow this advice unless you want your player to hate you for targeting him directly for 'breaking' the game...

To me, your situation actually sounds pretty fun. I'm AFB right now, but I believe that Harm has Magnitude and Range upgrades - so even with FR4, activating Harm on multiple minions for a room-wide instakill isn't guaranteed, at least not without flipping some Destiny. However, I'm a firm believer that if a player wants to be a Darksider, let them fall... but also be sure to describe the horrors they cause adequately. Harm is actively sapping the life from people (you can even restore yourself with it or bring someone back to life through its usage!), so describe them writhing in agony, screaming, begging as their bodies decay into lifeless empty husks in front of you. Some unrepentant slavers might deserve that fate in the eyes of the PC - but does a group of random rent-a-cops on some civilized world deserve it? If your Hermit character is THAT detached from the suffering of Sentients... then yes, they do fall to the dark side.

Being a darksider isn't a 'punishment' in this system, that mentality comes from WEG SW and to a lesser extent Saga Edition, where falling to the dark side meant losing your character for good. Here, the consequences are much more narrative in nature: Loss of trust from the party, inability to Heal them without Harming someone else, dark side whispers far more pronounced in their heads (GM should ALWAYS make the dark side tempt them) and maybe even impossible to resist fully (call for Discipline checks to not give in to your baser instincts) as the Dark Side begins to rule their destiny, potentially forever. If he decides to go full Sith Lord on you and the rest of the party goes along with him (and probably also falls) - rival darkside users, Inquisitors, and former Jedi in hiding or other lightsiders will give you a giant new pool of really strong adversaries.

The usual answer for almost any OP combat character in this system: An opponent with a Silhouette 2 vehicle mounting an Auto-blaster.

He's really very short on charm .

Blackbird, you have a great gift for rhyme.

Yes, yes. Some of the time.

7 hours ago, Silim said:

You just managed to sound like the worst kind of vindictive GM, good job. OP, whatever you do, DON'T follow this advice unless you want your player to hate you for targeting him directly for 'breaking' the game...

To me, your situation actually sounds pretty fun. I'm AFB right now, but I believe that Harm has Magnitude and Range upgrades - so even with FR4, activating Harm on multiple minions for a room-wide instakill isn't guaranteed, at least not without flipping some Destiny. However, I'm a firm believer that if a player wants to be a Darksider, let them fall... but also be sure to describe the horrors they cause adequately. Harm is actively sapping the life from people (you can even restore yourself with it or bring someone back to life through its usage!), so describe them writhing in agony, screaming, begging as their bodies decay into lifeless empty husks in front of you. Some unrepentant slavers might deserve that fate in the eyes of the PC - but does a group of random rent-a-cops on some civilized world deserve it? If your Hermit character is THAT detached from the suffering of Sentients... then yes, they do fall to the dark side.

Being a darksider isn't a 'punishment' in this system, that mentality comes from WEG SW and to a lesser extent Saga Edition, where falling to the dark side meant losing your character for good. Here, the consequences are much more narrative in nature: Loss of trust from the party, inability to Heal them without Harming someone else, dark side whispers far more pronounced in their heads (GM should ALWAYS make the dark side tempt them) and maybe even impossible to resist fully (call for Discipline checks to not give in to your baser instincts) as the Dark Side begins to rule their destiny, potentially forever. If he decides to go full Sith Lord on you and the rest of the party goes along with him (and probably also falls) - rival darkside users, Inquisitors, and former Jedi in hiding or other lightsiders will give you a giant new pool of really strong adversaries.

Actually, it isnt being vindictive, you don't want the player thinking that his choices have been for nothing. You want them to have their moments of awesomeness where they tear apart a nemesis without even thinking. You also dont want a player to have it easy all the time either , you want them to also be challenged within the game.

Also in much the same way that using your force powers can bring you under the radar of inquisitors ,using visible dark side abilities can also bring you under the radar of do gooder force sensitives. That being said, I think you misread into the reason I specified a light side force user , as the ability in protect that allows them to protect them till their next turn requires that they need lightside pips only. Use a darkside pip and its only until the next attack that do damage.

The OP wanted a way to challenge the PC that uses harm, this is the way to do it. Thematically it also works that the player has been using darkside abilities and is skirting the darkside , but that is as an aside. So yes let them have their moments, but also yes let them have their challenges and to me a FR4 character using harms polar opposite is an FR 4 character using protect.

I guess I get your point - though personally I'd argue someone using Heal would be the polar opposite, not Protect (especially since Protect, even for a FR4 lightsider, is hard to actually maintain). I do think that using lightsiders against darkside PCs is a fine choice, but you can just as well use Inquisitors too (Sith hate competition, old Plaps isn't above sending his hounds after you if you might become a Sith or a threat to their power). Also, a Characteristic at 6 for an Adversary is virtually always the wrong choice unless you're fighting a Rancor (or, according to whatever game dev loves Hutts so much, Hutt crime bosses), considering that a 6 represents the highest possible potential of even large beasts.

Another problem with your idea: Protect is an action. You'd have to couple that NPC with some minions or such that he's protecting with the power as well to actually be of any consequence. The "out of turn incidental" use of protect is once per session for PCs, so I'd definitely make it once per session for NPCs as well.

44 minutes ago, Silim said:

I guess I get your point - though personally I'd argue someone using Heal would be the polar opposite, not Protect (especially since Protect, even for a FR4 lightsider, is hard to actually maintain). I do think that using lightsiders against darkside PCs is a fine choice, but you can just as well use Inquisitors too (Sith hate competition, old Plaps isn't above sending his hounds after you if you might become a Sith or a threat to their power). Also, a Characteristic at 6 for an Adversary is virtually always the wrong choice unless you're fighting a Rancor (or, according to whatever game dev loves Hutts so much, Hutt crime bosses), considering that a 6 represents the highest possible potential of even large beasts.

Another problem with your idea: Protect is an action. You'd have to couple that NPC with some minions or such that he's protecting with the power as well to actually be of any consequence. The "out of turn incidental" use of protect is once per session for PCs, so I'd definitely make it once per session for NPCs as well.

You need to use only light side pips to have the power work until your next turn, so if you use an inquisitor they can only protect themselves and only until the first attack against lands and causes damage, unless the inquisitor uses only light side and flips a destiny point.

Now obviously I don't know the player, but if he's going along the unintentional fall to the Dark Side route you could even have the Inquisitorius try to recruit him. Non-combat way to make his character realize how far he's fallen when your former enemies now approve of your course of action.

18 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I have a player with a character that has a FR of 4. He regularly rolls 15+ damage on Harm checks. He is about to dip to the darkside, which is narrative punishment enough, but it doesn't change the fact that combat encounters are difficult to balance.

Honestly I would probably be happy if I had a 'high XP' player combat orientated player who is only doing 15+ non-soakable damage. Now that said I totally empathize with the combat encounters being difficult to balance at this level too. I have a heck of a time doing it in my campaign, and my PCs are well over the 1000XP range.

The reality is that in this game system it is almost comically easy to create game breaking damage dealing PC combat machines. A Hawk-Bat Swooping Saber Swarming Ataru Striker is going to do way more than 15 damage in a round, and this damage is effectively 'non-soakable' since most lightsabers have breach.

Do consider that against a BBGs, they can take 15 damage pretty easily and still be on their feet. A 'base line' level inquisitor has 20 + Brawn WT, and could easily have more if they are designed to be 'higher level'. Also consider having the Harm check be an opposed check against plot critical Rival and/or Nemesis level characters. Feel free to toss in their ranks in Adversary along the way.

Ultimately, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The player in question has invested their XP into combat related abilities, I would let them have their fun. Add an extra group or two of minions to your encounters and just see how it goes.

36 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Honestly I would probably be happy if I had a 'high XP' player combat orientated player who is only doing 15+ non-soakable damage. Now that said I totally empathize with the combat encounters being difficult to balance at this level too. I have a heck of a time doing it in my campaign, and my PCs are well over the 1000XP range.

The reality is that in this game system it is almost comically easy to create game breaking damage dealing PC combat machines. A Hawk-Bat Swooping Saber Swarming Ataru Striker is going to do way more than 15 damage in a round, and this damage is effectively 'non-soakable' since most lightsabers have breach.

Do consider that against a BBGs, they can take 15 damage pretty easily and still be on their feet. A 'base line' level inquisitor has 20 + Brawn WT, and could easily have more if they are designed to be 'higher level'. Also consider having the Harm check be an opposed check against plot critical Rival and/or Nemesis level characters. Feel free to toss in their ranks in Adversary along the way.

Ultimately, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The player in question has invested their XP into combat related abilities, I would let them have their fun. Add an extra group or two of minions to your encounters and just see how it goes.

I'd like Nemesis level characters to last longer than the first player slot of the second round. I'm not satisfied with just giving them a higher WT.

The rules for opposed force checks just require a single success, but yeah, a higher discipline on the adversary would be beneficial towards them being able to resist.

49 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I'd like Nemesis level characters to last longer than the first player slot of the second round. I'm not satisfied with just giving them a higher WT.

The rules for opposed force checks just require a single success, but yeah, a higher discipline on the adversary would be beneficial towards them being able to resist.

Use the squad rules. PC succeeds on Harm check against big bad? Great. It kills a lowly stormtrooper who gets in the way of the sickening, red energy that was aimed at his boss. As the trooper slowly writhes, he falls to the ground with a blood curdling howl as it seems the very life force is drained from him. Big bad then shoots/slashes/chokes/blows up said PC on his turn.

3 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I'd like Nemesis level characters to last longer than the first player slot of the second round. I'm not satisfied with just giving them a higher WT.

The rules for opposed force checks just require a single success, but yeah, a higher discipline on the adversary would be beneficial towards them being able to resist.

While its usually only a single success, getting that single success isn't always guaranteed. Especially if an Inquisitor or Jedi against him has 4 Willpower and 4 ranks in Discipline, since as Force Users, they can ALWAYS resist with that if they so choose. And then you're probably also well within your right to apply Adversary to the check... You see how this can be 4-5 reds on every check. Even if you succeed, have fun with your threats and despairs! You, as the GM, can do a LOT of fun things with those... Also, squad rules from the AoR GMing kit. And Imperial Valor (allows the targeted character to toss a minion in the way) for some added "HOW DO WE KILL THIS GUY?!" to frustrate ALL of your players with a powerful adversary.

If your PC has the Mastery that already turns it into an opposed check where the NPCs don't get to default back to Discipline, then Squad Rules and Imperial Valor are your best bets. The crit is going to auto-kill those poor sods in the way even if the damage wouldn't, but your NPC won't even have a scratch. Pretty great, I'd say.

I would use morality to make your other players consider it an issue. Start awarding "knowing inaction" exp to players. if they become witness to one too many drains, or guys who have had their eyeballs explode and is constantly using the force as a weapon. As Jedi they have a duty to maintain balance (e.g. balance toward the force end of the spectrum) thus if their own morality takes 2/4 extra conflict per session due to harm being used in an exceedingly cruel way, they might be more inclined to get on this character's case for "using life itself to inflict pain and suffering. That is not right!"

It takes a certain maturity to manage the force like this; we have players of all spectrum and alignments in our party that are united by the struggle against the empire which usually takes residence over that. Just it's awkward things like this add a certain amount of delicious tension. My PC is secretly resentful of at least a certain other's in the party due to what he perceives as "hypocriticy", that they would rather chase artifacts then fight the empire. At the moment it's a salad dressing of fun that will hopefully mature into a interesting hook later.

Can the character in mention actually do anything else? Or have they built themselves around the use of harm/heal?"

The powers I would recommend adding to some of your opponents are Calming Aura, or Suppress. Both will reduce the pips he activates.

Since this is a whole dark side thing, why not come at him side ways.

Start having him be attacked by an indistinct shadow that he perceives as a powerful force user that always disappears or runs away when his allies come to his add, AKA only he ever sees it. The user always uses dark powers to harm him but if he retaliates in kind he suffers penalties or harm at a later date. The shadow of course is himself and the darkness becoming aware and trying to become the ONE in control and the penalties represent his confusion and slipping control of his SELF.

Kind of hitting your player with a self hate loop.

Its only a matter of time before your player figures it out and gives them a problem to solve and work towards.

How about a sniper? Unless he has both Range upgrades he can't "harm" a target at Extreme Range. Even if he does it will take him two Force Points to do so. He will also have to know where the sniper is which may be difficult if he's spent all his points on Heal/Harm and not many on Sense.

How about this

Brawn 4, Agility 5, Intellect 3, Cunning 3, Willpower 3, Presence 2

Wounds 24, Strain 23, Defense 2, Soak 5

Ranged/Heavy 4, Lightsaber 3, Ranged/Light 2

Cool 2, Coordination 3, Deception 3, Medicine 1, Stealth 4, Vigilance 2

Adversary 3, Intense Focus, Lethal Blows 2, Imperial Valor, Move

Inquisitor Gear = "one or two weapons, some armor, a piece of thematically appropriate gear", since modifying the Rifle into a sniper rifle sounds like appropriate gear for a sniper I will do so.

Heavy Blaster Rifle (modified), w/Superior, Telescopic Optical Sight, and a +1 Max range Mod.

Damage 9 Crit 3 Range = Extreme. Attack Roll 4 Y 1 G automatic +1 advantage to roll, sight reduces base difficulty by one, so base difficulty is Hard at Extreme Range.

Armored Robes, Basic Lightsaber