1 minute ago, Darthain said:

This is fair, hopefully FFG had the sense to give us some rules blurb to this (unlikely?) haha.

Simultaneous Order's reads after performing a (skill) you may resolve the effects of another of your (skill) abilities. It doesn't specify different so I feel that if you have two iterations of the same cards they would count as another ability while they are not different. Currently only the Mighty Moose Matron is the only way to do this little finangle.

Ah, right, I'd forgotten about her. If it's legal to take two of the same, then yes, Simultaneous Orders ought to work. The intention might be that she is able to bring many varieties to a fight, or champions to defend them, though.

1 minute ago, kaffis said:

Ah, right, I'd forgotten about her. If it's legal to take two of the same, then yes, Simultaneous Orders ought to work. The intention might be that she is able to bring many varieties to a fight, or champions to defend them, though.

There is nothing in the RRG prohibiting doubling up on the same upgrade so, it's legal under RAW.

I think the fact that its granting an ability would be the issue, not doubling on cards.

Who knows though. Probably wont be covered until we get a FAQ a year from now

48 minutes ago, Darthain said:

I would think even though you have 2 upgrade cards, you still only have the 1 skill (as it is redundant). This isn't necessarily bad (because accuracy). Generally, in the other games I believe a no double upgrade on a unit exists, but here it does not appear to.

Is it redundant?

Imagine you had the same ability listed on your card, twice. Exact same text.

There is clear precedent in Imperial Assault, where surge abilities can only be used once, and so they will sometimes list the same surge twice to allow doubling up.

Imagine a card had two of the new "limited surge" abilities, exact same text. Would they not be able to activate each ability individually? Seems pretty straightforward to me. Just because two skills have the same text doesn't make them NOT two completely different instances.

Let's go through the steps.

1. I have two sorceresses, each with their own ability, written with identical text. It should be clear and agreed that they do not cancel one another out, they both exist, independently, tied to different models.
2. I execute a [skill] action. Skill says I choose one of my abilities with a Skill icon and execute it.
3. I choose Sorceress #1, use her skill.
4. I use Simultaneous Orders, which reads
   "After you perform a [skill] you may resolve the effects of another of your skill abilities" So, ANOTHER implies that I cannot use the SAME skill.
5. Okay, so I choose Sorceress #2, whose skill has the exact same text, but it is undeniably and unquestionably, ANOTHER skill ability. It really doesn't matter that the other skill did the same thing, it's simply not the same skill ability.
6. There is no mechanism in the RRG, that I have found, that can prevent this sequence from playing out.

Magnificent moose maiden Megan make magic matter more!

12 minutes ago, jek said:

Magnificent moose maiden Megan make magic matter more!

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

I think the fact that its granting an ability would be the issue, not doubling on cards.

Who knows though. Probably wont be covered until we get a FAQ a year from now

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

There is nothing in the RRG prohibiting doubling up on the same upgrade so, it's legal under RAW.

What Vineheart said was my argue, not doubling on the card. We'll have to wait and see, we have precedent on both sides. One simply being, they forgot the double of an upgrade rule used in other games (Armada) initially. This would not be beyond FFG.

5 minutes ago, Darthain said:

What Vineheart said was my argue, not doubling on the card. We'll have to wait and see, we have precedent on both sides. One simply being, they forgot the double of an upgrade rule used in other games (Armada) initially. This would not be beyond FFG.

Why would that be an issue?

There is nothing in the RRG, under RR 1 "Abilities", under RR 74 "Skill" or under RR 88 "Upgrade Cards" that in ANY WAY limits this. Not one single thing I've found indicates any such limitation.

Abilities are not "given to" a unit in the sense of being added to their card, the final bullet in Abilities makes it quite clear that when a unit uses a [skill] action, they can use a skill on either their card OR an attached upgrade card. If they legally have two of the same upgrade, they are unique and distinct instances of that skill, that in no way or under any interpretation are mutually exclusive.

If you think they simply forgot a whole rule, that's fine, but it's not in any way pertinent to what the rules say right now.

18 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Why would that be an issue?

There is nothing in the RRG, under RR 1 "Abilities", under RR 74 "Skill" or under RR 88 "Upgrade Cards" that in ANY WAY limits this. Not one single thing I've found indicates any such limitation.

Abilities are not "given to" a unit in the sense of being added to their card, the final bullet in Abilities makes it quite clear that when a unit uses a [skill] action, they can use a skill on either their card OR an attached upgrade card. If they legally have two of the same upgrade, they are unique and distinct instances of that skill, that in no way or under any interpretation are mutually exclusive.

If you think they simply forgot a whole rule, that's fine, but it's not in any way pertinent to what the rules say right now.

It hangs highly dependent on the definition of 'another', is the same skill, another? We don't know. Another is not one of our terms given at this time.

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

It hangs highly dependent on the definition of 'another', is the same skill, another? We don't know. Another is not one of our terms given at this time.

But it's not the same in that sense.

There are two cards, two models, two slots, two abilities that share text. That's it.

Abilities do not jump from the upgrade to the unit. Upgrade cards are attached to units, not melded into them. They remain on the card, and are used from the upgrade card.

We don't need to define "Another" to determine that it means, you know, another.

The second one is, in fact, another.

Really, examining this has made it seem to me that Ardus cannot borrow upgrade card surge abilities. The ability entry makes it pretty clear that abilities, including surge, are played off the upgrade card, not the unit.

Probably already asked, but does the Elves box contain rules for the game or do you still have to buy the separate book to be able to use them?

1 minute ago, Hawkman2000 said:

Probably already asked, but does the Elves box contain rules for the game or do you still have to buy the separate book to be able to use them?

Essentials Box is bought separately for 25USD and it has all the stuff in the Core needed to play. It also includes some generic cards, not sure if they are all of the generic cards in the Core or just a handful of them.

29 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Essentials Box is bought separately for 25USD and it has all the stuff in the Core needed to play. It also includes some generic cards, not sure if they are all of the generic cards in the Core or just a handful of them.

It's all 10 generic cards from the core. Doesn't include the Ardus and Kari upgrades, the 4 Uniques specific to Kari/Ardus or the Golem or Carrion upgrade.

Yoda: "There is another"

Yoda didn't mean another Luke he meant another last hope (read as Ability/Skill).

Gramma lesson here ends does.