[insert speculative comment about how implementing a pass rule would not work here]

I think the only issue with a pass rule is that it could make certain 2nd player objectives wildly overpowered by never allowing a last-first activation.

3 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'm concerned that we are entering a period where a ship's contribution to activation advantage is its primary statistic after 1-2 "key player" ships like Demolisher, Admonition, or a big MC80/ISD. For all the talk of flotillas being "empty activations" that don't contribute to the fight, I'd point out that I could sacrifice one naked CR90B for two flotillas. In @Dr alex's Euro fleet, this would have contributed to fairly reliable anti-squadron platforms and given him immediate activation advantage against all of his top 4 opponents. Even with upgrades, one Flotilla with Slicer Tools could have drastically impacted multiple enemy fleets dependent on squadron commands or other "key moment" plays.

Any thoughts on how to encourage the solid performing ships who don't have the rock-star names & unlimited upgrade budgets?

For example, unnamed MC30 #3 or the Arquitens cruiser right out of the shipyard, still with the new-ship smell in the internal crew compartments.

I'm of the opinion that Reinholt's example of passing would be the next best thing for Armada, or one of the worst. Second player would always get to go last. I think this would fix a lot of the activation issues we currently have because it would remove those dead activations in fleets. There would be no point in taking more than 2 flotillas since you don't get that edge right before engagement. Instead, you still have a reliable, cheap carrier.

I could see it backfiring because it would literally give the second player activation advantage in every single game. First player would still get initiative, but the second player gets to dictate the objectives AND the activation order. Taking 2 ISDs with a Rhymerball, bidding for second, would be incredibly deadly. Instead of using Gozantis to delay, it uses your opponents ships to delay. And you also fight an uphill battle of the objective.

However, I also think dual ISDs should be a viable strategy in a tournament. I want people to want to play whatever they want, rather then playing the only thing competitive.

Give us a pass rule FFG. Fix the **** game.

Feel i should add something to think about here

activation advantage is a fine point of the game, its a way of controlling the battle and winning tournaments for the last 2 years but it was not the only way to win. in the armada scenes current state however people seem to believe the activation advantage is the problem, which it isnt.

think of it this way, if you were to remove flotilla's and replace them with the next cheapest thing(hammerheads/raiders/corvettes) you will see that you are spending twice as much on activation advantage resulting is something else having to give way to keep that 5-6 ship list, usually the squadron ball is first to go or the list doesnt have a power player like MC30's, ISD's or demolisher . what happens then which we have seen in the past multiple times(gencon special, clonisher, 2 ship rhymerball) is that the list gains a glaring weakness to another element of the game as it becomes heavily slanted one way with not all its bases covered.

with flotilla's though this doesnt happen, a list padding 2-3 flotilla's for activation is only down a corvette and still has room for a max squadron ball and 1-2 power player ship, if you run with your corvettes you are wasting points spent in its cost to attack the enemy, putting your admiral here also bumps their price up to worth chasing down, without scatter tokens its possible to kill them at long over a few turns.

ultimately the flotilla IS the problem but not for what it does but for how cheaply it does it, its why some people noticed the hammerheads have been priced a little higher than they were expecting for how easy they are to kill, FFG does appear to be keeping this in mind and i doubt we will see such a cheap and durable ship in the future.

its a combination of being able to having high activation advantage along with good fighter coverage and a heavy hitter or two that is causing issues as these lists dont have an obvious weakness as of yet while allowing people to have all the strengths. i for one cant wait to replace flotilla's with hammerheads for a leaner list, i hate using ships that dont do anything after ive deployed them.... i was very reluctant to buy a second one. just seems out of place that armada games look like a space battles of non combatants.....

Heck I don't know what the answer is. I don't even know if there is a problem really. I am also amazed how we can go back and forth on this topic for so long.

I am thrilled, however, at the general civility of this thread. Kudos to the nerds that we are!

Any newcomers/lurkers reading this after 100+ posts...buy this game! There is something to it. If not it wouldn't cause this level of debate.

IMO.

While I could digress about comparing activation padding to duelling sword lengths and some of the silliness that led to, I think I'll instead drop some data on you.

For Wave 5 regionals, 6 activation fleets were the best performing, beating both 5 & 7. However, that was not true for all ships.

results are calculated for fleets of 2-8 activations with at least 1 of a given ship. So, any fleet with an ISD would count towards success or failure for that activation bracket.

ISD's were successful from 4 to 6 activations. Generally unsuccessful at 2-3.

Imperial smalls wanted 5 activations, not more, not less. Glads were particularly punished for going above 5 activations.

VSDs did surprisingly well as part of a 5-ship fleet.

The scale of activation advantage is approximately 5% increase chance to appear in the top 4 bracket for each ship above 3, up to 6. Then it drops back down at the same rate beyond 6.

4 activation fleets are balanced, winning & losing at the expected rates.

Rebel fleets were definitely more sensitive to activation advantage. More successful than similar Imperial lists at high activations, less successful at low activations. MC30's & Liberties are definitely the most dependent on having very high ship counts.