Just now, Rakaydos said:you have to ALSO throw in recosting. There's stuff that is overpowered at 1 point and underpowered at 2 points, that really should cost 1.5, but they wont add fractions to this game.
If it cost 3 points out of 200, this hypothetical card would be more balanced.
Haha! Ninja!
3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:you have to ALSO throw in recosting. There's stuff that is overpowered at 1 point and underpowered at 2 points, that really should cost 1.5, but they wont add fractions to this game.
If it cost 3 points out of 200, this hypothetical card would be more balanced.
Ok, that's starting to make sense.
I shudder to think what I may have to purchase to bring my existing collection up to Version 2.0 standards. Depending on how it's handled, it might be the time to say "Screw It" and break out the old Avalon Hill Games.
Personally, I would love a new upgrade box that converts the game to any hypothetical rules upgrade. This upgrade kit will include cards or stickers to modify existing cards, that update to the new rules set. New price points for some cards, perhaps a couple new dice types.
contents would include enough to factor on buying only one of each expansion released - that way, if you buy multiple expansions of ships/core sets you will have to buy multiple upgrade kits.
Most importantly, do NOT require the purchase of new models. Reuse (an modify with stickers) as much as possible.
2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:If I were Emperor
Delusions of grandeur
Just now, Stoneface said:Ok, that's starting to make sense.
I shudder to think what I may have to purchase to bring my existing collection up to Version 2.0 standards. Depending on how it's handled, it might be the time to say "Screw It" and break out the old Avalon Hill Games.
Personally, I'd prefer to handle it as a wave-by-wave patch.
So 2.0 core comes out, and the 1.0 Biggs, R2d2 and Red Squadron get paper-and-cardboard fixes. (Red squad up, Biggs and R2 down), but i otherwise compatable with 1.0.
Then 2.0 Wave 1 drops, overwriting wave 1. And so on.
Just now, Rakaydos said:Personally, I'd prefer to handle it as a wave-by-wave patch.
So 2.0 core comes out, and the 1.0 Biggs, R2d2 and Red Squadron get paper-and-cardboard fixes. (Red squad up, Biggs and R2 down), but i otherwise compatable with 1.0.
Then 2.0 Wave 1 drops, overwriting wave 1. And so on.
Workable your way. A wave repave every quarter? Regardless of the timing, the reprints will need to be very cost effective or FFG will lose a lot of players. I'm pretty sure that most players' collections are already well into the 4 digit dollar range.
We might just get Rogue One Core Set, might have some new rules, maybe they could change the timing chart without damaging the game or any cards. Maybe we could move and choose action same time, not sure how they would actually do this or would it do much of an difference. I guess they could provide "action" dials..
I honestly don't like the multi-dial at all. Choosing your action is a huge part of the game, and a big advantage for higher skill pilots. Plus, barrel rolls and boosts would really never be used. And PTL would be a complete auto-include so that you get to choose afterward. How would Darth Vader work? Would he need a third dial? I just don't like it. Takes a lot of the skill out of the game.
3 minutes ago, Zazaa said:I guess they could provide "action" dials..
Hmmm... chose your action with manoeuvre. Interesting idea. And there's potential for generic dials. How many actions are there 12? Could they fit on one dial?
There definitely shouldn't be action dials. That would make being a high pilot skill largely irrelevant. And definitely kill arc dodgers for good.
7 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:There definitely shouldn't be action dials. That would make being a high pilot skill largely irrelevant. And definitely kill arc dodgers for good.
Yeah, that might be! Like I said, not sure how it would effect the game. Maybe there could be something for higher pilot skills?
43 minutes ago, Sasajak said:Delusions of grandeur
Maybe. But you didn't get a bad feeling about it.
41 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:Personally, I'd prefer to handle it as a wave-by-wave patch.
Isn't that more-or-less what the veterans packs are?
44 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:This upgrade kit will include cards or stickers to modify existing cards, that update to the new rules set. Reuse (an modify with stickers) as much as possible.
I am totally against the stickers idea. It feels like a trashy/cheap way to upgrade. Besides, if they can afford to print on an adhesive back, they can afford to print on paper stock.
Being this is Asmodee's call now I can totally see them wringing this shamee dry and if they go a next gen model start completely over. They lose customers so what, we mostly have already given them the majority of money we will. If it is a good rules set and fixes some of these major problems you all know **** well you'll buy it. GW did this for decades, piss people off sure, but many put up with it and while ******* still forked money over. It hinges entirely on if X wing 2.0 is vastly superior. If it is there will be people coming back that quit long ago or new guys looking to get in on the ground floor.
I know I hate it too but I think people put way too much weight on their individual importance. What it boils down to is a good product will sell they don't still need us after we have given X dollars over already. And like I said an acceptable majority, whether they admit or not, will cross over if it's prudent to do so.
It physically disgusts me to think over $1000 is wasted but to have a tighter rules set without some of the ridiculous BS we have to put up with now, I am really considering if it wouldn't be better to scrap this crap and start over.
edit:I still think making pilots and ships seperate fixes a lot of X wings problems. Not any pilot in any ship but pilots have proficiencies in groups, like dog fighters/interceptors/bombers/shuttles.Then the pilots have the specials like they do now. The ships have the base stat line and the combo of the two determines ship cost. If there is a single problem pilot just ban the pilot not the ship and it's done.
Edited by LordFajubi5 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:GW did this for decades
I could use my second edition Eldar models with today's rules if I so choose. All I'd need is a new rule book and codex. There has to be a graceful way, like this, of moving to a new rule set pulling the majority of the user base to it - like Descent second edition.
Just now, Sasajak said:I could use my second edition Eldar models with today's rules if I so choose. All I'd need is a new rule book and codex. There has to be a graceful way, like this, of moving to a new rule set pulling the majority of the user base to it - like Descent second edition.
Point cost errattas at least let you keep your old ship and cardboard
2 minutes ago, Sasajak said:I could use my second edition Eldar models with today's rules if I so choose. All I'd need is a new rule book and codex. There has to be a graceful way, like this, of moving to a new rule set pulling the majority of the user base to it - like Descent second edition.
While that is true they consistently hosed armies into uselessness, so while you could depending on the codex it might be equal to being the kid with a crash helmet and cork covered sharp objects fighting a sherman tank. Codexes make it way too easy for the company to make you buy what they want. GW was hurt bad by this.
24 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:Being this is Asmodee's call now I can totally see them wringing this shamee dry and if they go a next gen model start completely over. They lose customers so what, we mostly have already given them the majority of money we will . If it is a good rules set and fixes some of these major problems you all know **** well you'll buy it. GW did this for decades, piss people off sure, but many put up with it and while ******* still forked money over. It hinges entirely on if X wing 2.0 is vastly superior. If it is there will be people coming back that quit long ago or new guys looking to get in on the ground floor.
I know I hate it too but I think people put way too much weight on their individual importance. What it boils down to is a good product will sell they don't still need us after we have given X dollars over already. And like I said an acceptable majority, whether they admit or not, will cross over if it's prudent to do so.
It physically disgusts me to think over $1000 is wasted but to have a tighter rules set without some of the ridiculous BS we have to put up with now, I am really considering if it wouldn't be better to scrap this crap and start over.
None of this would hold true for me. I will keep spending $ on XWM for a long time, but if the game massively changed where I couldn't use old models or the rule set seriously changed (like the 2nd dial idea or breaking attack dice into power and accuracy), I would be done. In truth, I only got into this collectible game because it is Star Wars, and right now I feel FFG is only just barely supporting it's Star Wars-iness.
For me, 2.0 means a revision to increase cohesion of current game ideas. If some of the fundamentals of game play changed, I would be hard pressed to stay on board.
7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:I could see this as well, BUT, it excludes the tournament scene, which is all FFG cares about.
Let me explain. the campaigns and epic stuff FFG does always has lots of competitive content.
the big campaign box I imagine as x-wing "second purchase" so players who like the starter set can buy into the game deeper. it would include lots of cards to make purchasing the old expansions relevant like different title upgrades for the x-wing and tie advanced and interceptor. For tournament players these would be key cards. For the campaign they would be good upgrade options players can earn.
So in one product they could potentially update all the ships they felt like.
Edited by TylerTT
Invalidate old models and I walk. There is no reason to change so wholesale that models have to be replaced. Upgraded cards that incorporate the FAQ makes sense. New cardboard for ships that truly need a change makes sense. Calling my v1 x-wing out-of-date is asinine.
I walked from GW. I'll walk from FFG. With 2-6 of every small ship, 1-2 of every large ship, every huge, every game mat and plenty of terrain I am good to play casual till the end of time. Mel will just get more money from me.
And oh yeah, bone me on X-wing and I dont spend another penny on ANY FFG products. Armada, ImpAssault, Rebellion, you know, all the stuff I buy now.
8 hours ago, BadMotivator said:There definitely shouldn't be action dials. That would make being a high pilot skill largely irrelevant. And definitely kill arc dodgers for good.
Not irrelevant at all, not even close. Firing first is still a huge advantage.
I have tried a homebrew variant of movement that does away with PS-based movement altogether and goes with alternating movement, picking a ship from either side. I'm not going to get into all the rules I used, and definitely not going to start a debate about the merits of such a system (as I can already hear the aneurysms swelling in people's brains at the very thought of doing it that way) but I can say that the games I have played this way have all turned out great. You do not need pilot skill to have an effect on ship movement to have a good time, just take my word for it.
------------
Anyway, to update to 2nd edition, I'd prefer to see something like this:
Anyway, I would do a few things differently the second time out for X-Wing 2nd ed:
More than anything, I would like damage and chance to hit be separate things. This would deal with a lot of the power creep. A two dice a wing or tie fighter can still hit something, it just couldn't do much damage.
This would also make for a better difference between missiles (high hit/lower damage) and torpedoes (low hit/high damage).
2 hours ago, mkevans80 said:
- Pilot skills have the opposite done to them. PS is reduced from from 1-9 to 1-5. Most generics will be PS1 and PS2. I don't think high granularity here is necessary. Then you can more easily assign pilots to a category: PS1=Recruit, PS2=Veteran, PS3=Ace, PS4=Elite, PS5=Legendary
In my own 3.0 attempt, I did the opposite- PS still being 1-9, but spreading out the generic tiers. 1-3 are defensive, rounded, and offensive novices, 4-6 are weak, rounded, strong veterans, and 7-9 are common, strong and top heros. At the same time, I move generics up into the higher PSs, with Grey squadron ywings at PS6, Darth vader's Black Squadron at PS7, and I'm thinking Royal Guards may go as high as PS8, once I get to Intercepters.
11 hours ago, mkevans80 said:Not irrelevant at all, not even close. Firing first is still a huge advantage.
Yes, but not one that represents the skill of a pilot well.
A highly skilled pilot will simply outmaneuver those of a lower skill than he is. Which is what the ability to arc dodge represents quite well. Being able to boost and barrel roll with more or less perfect board state information is pretty much a spot on representation of this happening.
High Skill shouldn't just determine if you shoot first. It should also let you pick your action.
Edited by BadMotivator12 hours ago, mkevans80 said:Not irrelevant at all, not even close. Firing first is still a huge advantage.
I have tried a homebrew variant of movement that does away with PS-based movement altogether and goes with alternating movement, picking a ship from either side. I'm not going to get into all the rules I used, and definitely not going to start a debate about the merits of such a system (as I can already hear the aneurysms swelling in people's brains at the very thought of doing it that way) but I can say that the games I have played this way have all turned out great. You do not need pilot skill to have an effect on ship movement to have a good time, just take my word for it.
------------Anyway, to update to 2nd edition, I'd prefer to see something like this:
- They sell replacement packs for changed upgrades. Any reprinted ship blisters will be printed with new versions of the cards. Better yet: If you mail FFG your old cards and pay shipping, they will mail you back new versions of the cards, either for free or for cheap. Maybe allow FLGS's to sell individual upgrade cards à la carte for reasonable prices.... a few bucks each new (still monstrously good profit on a piece of cardboard), and at a discount (or free?) if you trade in your old card. Yes, I know this cuts down on FFG making sales off of the poor schmucks who buy a bunch of ships just so they can use the included upgrades in their tournament list.
Anyway, I would do a few things differently the second time out for X-Wing 2nd ed:
- All points values are doubled, to allow for more nuanced pricing, as discussed earlier in this thread.
- Pilot skills have the opposite done to them. PS is reduced from from 1-9 to 1-5. Most generics will be PS1 and PS2. I don't think high granularity here is necessary. Then you can more easily assign pilots to a category: PS1=Recruit, PS2=Veteran, PS3=Ace, PS4=Elite, PS5=Legendary
- All ships are separated from pilots. Pilots have their own cards, that allow them to fly a specific ship types, or in some cases, more than one ship type. I understand the folly of letting any pilot fly any ship, but flexibility in some cases will be ok. For example, Tycho and Corran should be able to fly X-Wings if they want.
- The freed up space on the ship card now allows specific ships to have special abilities, rather than getting those abilities from titles. Examples: ARC/SF Titles, U-Wing pivot wing title.
- Ship titles are unique, proper names only (Example, Millenium Falcon) Ships can now take ship-specific "Configuration" upgrades (X7/D Defender, all "Fix" type titles would be in this category). Theoretically you could have a ship that has a special ability, a configuration, and a unique title... all before you get into Pilot ability and upgrade cards.
- All second-tier generic pilots and all unique pilots (with the exception of precious few) get an EPT.
- I have more ideas but it's late and I'm tired
-Quite a few companies have sold replacement packs to update cards and stuff for a new edition (Warmachine and Guild Ball come to mind), so there is a precedence and they're fairly inexpensive (10-15 isn't super cheap, but it updates an entire faction). My only concern is updating cardboard I.e. Base stats of ships. This would likely inflate the cost a good bit more because every ship you want to change would require a substantial run (God help FFG if they wanted to change and reprint TIE Fighters, there's like 12 unique pilots). Dials wouldn't be as bad, but would still require a lot more work (and would be harder to make do with unlike cards where you can just print them off until available). I could definitely see some recosting or rewording of abilities as that would be comparatively straightforward and a lot of problems could be solved with price tweaks or simply altering problematic pilot abilities.
-Having played a lot of miniatures games...like entirely too many, the points system in X-Wing is fine. All it has to do is allow for enough granularity to differentiate things that are similar without getting Yugi'ohed I.e. Adding a random number of 0's on the end of everything. The current system isn't perfect, but it has a good balance of appropriate costs and being able to build a list in your head (which is a more significant feature than it's given credit for). FFG does need to re-evaluate the numerical thresholds I.e. The point at which you can include 1 more ship such as 33, 25, 12, etc. And look very closely at everything near one because 12 points may seem reasonable for a TIE in a vacuum, but being able to include 8, gives the point cost a much higher value.
-The current PS system roughly works. I'm not sure the advantages of changing it, outweigh having to work with game impact.
-Instead of separating the ship from the pilot which is going to make some weird situations (and also necessitate changing much of the cardboard in the game), I would rather see a slit separate from Mods and Titles for generic ship rules. For example, if FFG wanted to do someone's awesome ARC, that title has to compete directly with Alliance Overhaul (or hell, just look at the Star Viper MK2 that has to allow two titles).
-Don't hate the idea of most named pilots getting an EPT.
I will say, if FFG is going to do a true Mk2 (or 1.5 where most of the rules stay, but they just reshuffle some stuff), they should probably do it sooner rather than later as it's only going to get worse as new releases drop. They've managed to extend the life of the game a lot with various hot fixes in the form of titles and mods, but the seems are definitely showing.
Edited by MasterShake211 hours ago, Elrodthealbino said:More than anything, I would like damage and chance to hit be separate things. This would deal with a lot of the power creep. A two dice a wing or tie fighter can still hit something, it just couldn't do much damage.
This would also make for a better difference between missiles (high hit/lower damage) and torpedoes (low hit/high damage).
has swarm leader helped with tie and a-wing swarms? cuz it sounds amazing.