2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Given that people from EotE and AoR who are wanting to buy into F&D are only buying Exile or Emergent so they can get the F&D spec, and are very likely not going to bother investing in either at all, I don't really see the issue. For a lot of people, the only reason they are getting Exile/Emergent, is they are forced to do so, to get the requisite FR 1. If that's the only reason, then why bother in the first place? Sure not everyone will use it simply as a stepping stone, but for a lot of people, they will, because that's exactly what it is. They aren't required to invest X amount of XP into Exile/Emergent, to reflect them learning some connection to the Force on a deeper level. Nope, just need that FR 1. And for the players who simply have their eyes set on a particular F&D spec for their concept, I don't see the point in essentially sticking an additional +30xp(or more depending on how many specs they have) cost, on top of already buying into the F&D spec.

Different groups I guess. My players are constantly on the lookout for how to get new skills as class skills. If they had an opportunity to pick up FR1 and 4 class skills, they would never pick Exile or Emergent. Losing 4 class skills is the penalty assigned for getting FR1. If you want them to get it free, fine, but make sure you compensate any players who aren't picking up FR1 for free. Maybe even give the FR1 as an adventure reward or XP cost instead.

ALternately, let them pick the F&D career, but they don't get FR1 until they buy the first Force Rating upgrade. They just can't use any force talents until they get to the upgrade.

Given the situation with skills vs FR 1, an alternative would be to not grant the spec skills if they're getting FR 1 out of it. Yes, that's going to be costly, but it's also a good reason to look at Exile/Emergent first, or at least to go into a F&D spec that syncs up with your established career/specs, skill-wise.

4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Given that people from EotE and AoR who are wanting to buy into F&D are only buying Exile or Emergent so they can get the F&D spec, and are very likely not going to bother investing in either at all, I don't really see the issue. For a lot of people, the only reason they are getting Exile/Emergent, is they are forced to do so, to get the requisite FR 1. If that's the only reason, then why bother in the first place? Sure not everyone will use it simply as a stepping stone, but for a lot of people, they will, because that's exactly what it is. They aren't required to invest X amount of XP into Exile/Emergent, to reflect them learning some connection to the Force on a deeper level. Nope, just need that FR 1. And for the players who simply have their eyes set on a particular F&D spec for their concept, I don't see the point in essentially sticking an additional +30xp(or more depending on how many specs they have) cost, on top of already buying into the F&D spec.

1) You don't have to be Force sensitive to get a FaD specialization. You can buy into the spec and buy all the talents without having an Force rating. The only thing you can't benefit from in such a case is the Force talents. And there are plenty of non-Force talents in every tree. Some more than others, of course. But almost every tree has clear paths through it where you can avoid nearly every Force talent and just cherry pick the ones that you like for your character: all the Warrior specs, the Hunter, Makashi Duelist, Advisor, Protector, Peacekeeper, Sage, and Healer all will allow you to develop your character quite nicely with little to no Force talent interaction. And once you buy through the tree a little bit, then just save up XP to buy in the FS Emergent or Exile and suddenly you can fill out the rest of your tree lickety-split and become amazing.

2) If this is a problem, then you're describing someone that's been playing for a while through EotE and AoR not being Force-sensitive, has enough specs that buying a new one is a daunting prospect, but now FaD is on the table and suddenly they want their character to be Force sensitive for some reason.

• If this is the case, why have they waited this long to reveal their character's Force sensitivity? And why do they suddenly need it now? Simply because they have more options and they wanna be uber awesome? If that's the case, then just suck it up and pay the tax to be uber-awesome. You should already be awesome, given the amount of XP you will have accrued by now—exercise some patience to add to "uber."
• And if it's for story reasons and sudden access to Force & Destiny is merely a coincidence, then you should be okay with your character spending a couple sessions not "powering up" as he slowly learns the ways of the Force.
• If you have an advanced character and dislike the RAW options (I couldn't fault you), why not just respec? "Unlearn what you have learned!" That's standard operating procedure when new source material comes out: you have new options, and they fit your character better than the ones you started out with. I have never met a GM who isn't okay with some responsible respec'ing. Heck, you could argue that Luke himself it a total rebuild between ESB and RotJ. He started as an Explorer and perhaps quickly builds into FS Emergent, but then at Episode VI he's a "Jedi Knight." He's doing Force acrobatics, lightsabering people, deflecting crap, choking fools, and sensing Vader across planetary range bands. He defeats Vader in a lightsaber duel. Anyways that's just an example, and obviously the movies aren't built on game mechanics, but it is a justification for rebuilding
• If a rebuild is distasteful to you as a player, and you really want to play a Force sensitive, but you have a bazillion specializations and don't want to pay 3 sessions worth of XP to buy another one, why not just build a new character?

--

TL;DR: I just can't envision a situation where the only answer to the problem is "allow the Force Rating talent to grant a non-Force-sensitive Force sensitivity." So that is the reason for my questions: Why do they need it? Why can't they go the RAW route? Why not rebuild/reroll?

6 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

1) You don't have to be Force sensitive to get a FaD specialization. You can buy into the spec and buy all the talents without having an Force rating. The only thing you can't benefit from in such a case is the Force talents. And there are plenty of non-Force talents in every tree. Some more than others, of course. But almost every tree has clear paths through it where you can avoid nearly every Force talent and just cherry pick the ones that you like for your character: all the Warrior specs, the Hunter, Makashi Duelist, Advisor, Protector, Peacekeeper, Sage, and Healer all will allow you to develop your character quite nicely with little to no Force talent interaction. And once you buy through the tree a little bit, then just save up XP to buy in the FS Emergent or Exile and suddenly you can fill out the rest of your tree lickety-split and become amazing.

2) If this is a problem, then you're describing someone that's been playing for a while through EotE and AoR not being Force-sensitive, has enough specs that buying a new one is a daunting prospect, but now FaD is on the table and suddenly they want their character to be Force sensitive for some reason.

• If this is the case, why have they waited this long to reveal their character's Force sensitivity? And why do they suddenly need it now? Simply because they have more options and they wanna be uber awesome? If that's the case, then just suck it up and pay the tax to be uber-awesome. You should already be awesome, given the amount of XP you will have accrued by now—exercise some patience to add to "uber."
• And if it's for story reasons and sudden access to Force & Destiny is merely a coincidence, then you should be okay with your character spending a couple sessions not "powering up" as he slowly learns the ways of the Force.
• If you have an advanced character and dislike the RAW options (I couldn't fault you), why not just respec? "Unlearn what you have learned!" That's standard operating procedure when new source material comes out: you have new options, and they fit your character better than the ones you started out with. I have never met a GM who isn't okay with some responsible respec'ing. Heck, you could argue that Luke himself it a total rebuild between ESB and RotJ. He started as an Explorer and perhaps quickly builds into FS Emergent, but then at Episode VI he's a "Jedi Knight." He's doing Force acrobatics, lightsabering people, deflecting crap, choking fools, and sensing Vader across planetary range bands. He defeats Vader in a lightsaber duel. Anyways that's just an example, and obviously the movies aren't built on game mechanics, but it is a justification for rebuilding
• If a rebuild is distasteful to you as a player, and you really want to play a Force sensitive, but you have a bazillion specializations and don't want to pay 3 sessions worth of XP to buy another one, why not just build a new character?

--

TL;DR: I just can't envision a situation where the only answer to the problem is "allow the Force Rating talent to grant a non-Force-sensitive Force sensitivity." So that is the reason for my questions: Why do they need it? Why can't they go the RAW route? Why not rebuild/reroll?

1. I am aware that you can still buy the spec trees and take advantage of anything none force specific. But given those trees are built around being attuned to the Force, the fact that it's possible doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

2. I'm condensing all your points to "I just don't see the point. It's an aspect of the RAW that I personally think is silly." You all can disagree all you want, and that's fine. I wasn't trying to convert anyone by pointing out that I disagree with the RAW on the point, I was simply sharing my opinion.

Pretty much nothing you say will make me decide that I suddenly like the idea of forcing them to go through what will likely be a totally unused spec tree, simply to give them FR 1. I've heard the arguments, I don't agree with them. End of story.

4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Given that people from EotE and AoR who are wanting to buy into F&D are only buying Exile or Emergent so they can get the F&D spec, and are very likely not going to bother investing in either at all, I don't really see the issue. For a lot of people, the only reason they are getting Exile/Emergent, is they are forced to do so, to get the requisite FR 1. If that's the only reason, then why bother in the first place? Sure not everyone will use it simply as a stepping stone, but for a lot of people, they will, because that's exactly what it is. They aren't required to invest X amount of XP into Exile/Emergent, to reflect them learning some connection to the Force on a deeper level. Nope, just need that FR 1. And for the players who simply have their eyes set on a particular F&D spec for their concept, I don't see the point in essentially sticking an additional +30xp(or more depending on how many specs they have) cost, on top of already buying into the F&D spec.

Technically, no, they aren't just "stepping stones", given that they were written for particular games which otherwise wouldn't have Force users. They are the Force users of EotE and AoR respectively. So, if you're primarily playing those games, and using F&D only to add extra dimensions to the one or two players who want to turn their characters into Force using characters in the party, then it still makes sense to require them to take one of these specs. Otherwise, they should start out in a Force using career.

9 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

1. I am aware that you can still buy the spec trees and take advantage of anything none force specific. But given those trees are built around being attuned to the Force, the fact that it's possible doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

2. I'm condensing all your points to "I just don't see the point. It's an aspect of the RAW that I personally think is silly." You all can disagree all you want, and that's fine. I wasn't trying to convert anyone by pointing out that I disagree with the RAW on the point, I was simply sharing my opinion.

Pretty much nothing you say will make me decide that I suddenly like the idea of forcing them to go through what will likely be a totally unused spec tree, simply to give them FR 1. I've heard the arguments, I don't agree with them. End of story.

Well I was actually expressing a certain level of incomprehension. Not trying to convert anyone, but just trying to understand! if a player came to me and said "I don't think this rule should apply to me," then I would either point out why I thought the rule was a good idea (and run him through the list of options I just outlined, above) or tell him to come up with a better idea of why he thinks the rule is a bad one.

1. There are plenty of specialization where this is not true—ones that only have a small smattering of out-of-the-way Force talents. Not all the specializations are specifically built around "being attuned to the Force." They're all built around themes, and attunement to the Force is tangential to some. So this is a generalization that just doesn't hold water. I have built and played droid characters using specializations from FaD (Shii Cho Knight and Healer) and I never once missed being Force sensitive. Granted, these were secondary specializations, but that's what we're talking about here, anyway

2. You can condense my points, that's fine. I did it too! It's in the TL;DR of my post where I said I couldn't envision a reason for breaking the Force Rating rule. "I think it's silly" isn't a good enough reason for me in general, because to me, there's tons of other options, in general. But if there's a specific case where you think the rule shouldn't apply, I would love to hear it! I've shared my general opinion and given some examples of play, you've shared your opinion but no specific examples of play. I'm comfortable with my opinion being dissected; otherwise, I wouldn't post it up. I'm just asking for examples if you don't mind sharing them.

(And I realize you don't answer to me and that we are allowed to have differing opinions—I'm just wondering if there's more to yours!)

Thanks for the reply.

34 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Technically, no, they aren't just "stepping stones", given that they were written for particular games which otherwise wouldn't have Force users. They are the Force users of EotE and AoR respectively. So, if you're primarily playing those games, and using F&D only to add extra dimensions to the one or two players who want to turn their characters into Force using characters in the party, then it still makes sense to require them to take one of these specs. Otherwise, they should start out in a Force using career.

This is very true—the Exile and Emergent complement the other specs of their lines exceptionally well. It's almost as if they were designed that way!

7 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Well I was actually expressing a certain level of incomprehension. Not trying to convert anyone, but just trying to understand! if a player came to me and said "I don't think this rule should apply to me," then I would either point out why I thought the rule was a good idea (and run him through the list of options I just outlined, above) or tell him to come up with a better idea of why he thinks the rule is a bad one.

1. There are plenty of specialization where this is not true—ones that only have a small smattering of out-of-the-way Force talents. Not all the specializations are specifically built around "being attuned to the Force." They're all built around themes, and attunement to the Force is tangential to some. So this is a generalization that just doesn't hold water. I have built and played droid characters using specializations from FaD (Shii Cho Knight and Healer) and I never once missed being Force sensitive. Granted, these were secondary specializations, but that's what we're talking about here, anyway

2. You can condense my points, that's fine. I did it too! It's in the TL;DR of my post where I said I couldn't envision a reason for breaking the Force Rating rule. "I think it's silly" isn't a good enough reason for me in general, because to me, there's tons of other options, in general. But if there's a specific case where you think the rule shouldn't apply, I would love to hear it! I've shared my general opinion and given some examples of play, you've shared your opinion but no specific examples of play. I'm comfortable with my opinion being dissected; otherwise, I wouldn't post it up. I'm just asking for examples if you don't mind sharing them.

(And I realize you don't answer to me and that we are allowed to have differing opinions—I'm just wondering if there's more to yours!)

Thanks for the reply.

So I just did a quick skim of the F&D spec trees, since you said it's still worth your investment to buy an F&D tree even if you don't have FR 1. And pretty much all of the talents that are not marked Force Talent, are talents you could get in other trees. Trees you could buy into, without having to first buy into Exile or Emergent. So again I ask, why would you bother? It makes no sense to buy into an F&D tree without an FR 1. Sure you CAN do it, but why? The only difference of those trees, the thing that makes them unique and singular, would be denied you. So the only reason to truly buy into F&D, is to take advantage of the Force Talents, which requires the FR 1.

As to your 2nd point. Since you wish me to clarify, all I can expand on is that for most PC concepts, the end goal is what they will invest in. If I have a player who started out as say, a Slicer, but he decides that he wants to become something of a stealthy sneak-thief, but he wants that to be based on Force powers, not so much mundane skill. So he wants to buy Shadow, because the concept fits his idea for the character. Ok, fine, no problem. But wait, you first have to buy this OTHER tree, that possibly has nothing you actually want, and it's going to delay you buying Shadow (the only thing you are actually interested in). So you wait, buy this tree that didn't interest you at all, and you are only doing it because the rules say so. And THEN you can buy Shadow, the actual goal of your build concept. It's basically a 20+ xp tax that I think is pointless. You guys can continue to counter all you want, and write paragraphs about why this isn't actually a penalty at all, or a delaying tactic for the character build at all, but I simply do not like forcing the player to buy a spec tree in order to get into another spec tree. And since I'm the GM at my table, my players won't have to do it.

And since I was simply stating my view on the matter, and really didn't want to get into a freaking debate about something I have no plans on changing my mind on, and would rather not see this thread continue to derail by multiple people telling me how I'm wrong (not that I really care if you think I'm wrong or not), I'm officially done responding to any posts about why my views on this point are incorrect or faulty. You can continue to reply, but it will be to the void.

And since this is the internet, to clarify, no I'm not angry, I'm simply stating my views bluntly. I don't feel like typing multiple smilies into the text to convey light feelings, so just read them here.

I tend to agree that it's not that big of a burden or ask to make an EOTE or AOR character buy Emergent or Exile before being able to use Force talents from FAD specs. It even makes sense from a strictly XP perspective:

EOTE and AOR characters get: 1) 8 career skills from their career, with 1 free rank in 4 of them; and 2) 4 career skills from their first spec, with 1 free rank in 2 of them.

Meanwhile, FAD characters get: 1) 6 career skills from their career, with 1 free rank in 3 of them; 2) Force Rating 1, and 3) 4 career skills from their first spec, with 1 free rank in 2 of them.

Canceling everything out, the EOTE and AOR guys get two extra career skills and one extra skill rank, but the FAD guy gets Force Rating 1. With this in mind, I think a GM would be within her rights to charge 20 or 25 points for FR1. So getting a talent tree as part of the bargain is actually a pretty good deal! In other words, granting a Force Rating for simply buying a FAD spec is shortchanging your non-Force-using characters.

12 hours ago, SavageBob said:

I tend to agree that it's not that big of a burden or ask to make an EOTE or AOR character buy Emergent or Exile before being able to use Force talents from FAD specs. It even makes sense from a strictly XP perspective:

EOTE and AOR characters get: 1) 8 career skills from their career, with 1 free rank in 4 of them; and 2) 4 career skills from their first spec, with 1 free rank in 2 of them.

Meanwhile, FAD characters get: 1) 6 career skills from their career, with 1 free rank in 3 of them; 2) Force Rating 1, and 3) 4 career skills from their first spec, with 1 free rank in 2 of them.

Canceling everything out, the EOTE and AOR guys get two extra career skills and one extra skill rank, but the FAD guy gets Force Rating 1. With this in mind, I think a GM would be within her rights to charge 20 or 25 points for FR1. So getting a talent tree as part of the bargain is actually a pretty good deal! In other words, granting a Force Rating for simply buying a FAD spec is shortchanging your non-Force-using characters.

That's true as long as you haven't already loaded up on specializations! But I don't think I'd mind a player paying 20 XP to get FR 1 with no other benefits, actually. That seems like a perfectly reasonable course of action.

On 6/8/2017 at 5:52 PM, KungFuFerret said:

And since I was simply stating my view on the matter, and really didn't want to get into a freaking debate about something I have no plans on changing my mind on, and would rather not see this thread continue to derail by multiple people telling me how I'm wrong (not that I really care if you think I'm wrong or not), I'm officially done responding to any posts about why my views on this point are incorrect or faulty. You can continue to reply, but it will be to the void.

Thank you, The Void! Clarification was, quite literally, all I was asking for. I won't expect you to reply, but I'll leave here the summary of my thoughts upon hearing your reasoning.

It's not your views that are faulty, but your premise: one needn't have Force sensitivity to justify the purchase of, or make effective use of, a FaD specialization. Despite the Force talents in FaD specializations, there remain plenty of reasons for purchasing one even if one is not Force-sensitive. Ranked talents are one such general reason; unique non-Force talents are another reason; and flavor is yet another reason. Min-maxing/mechanical-optimizing reasons could also play into it, since (flavor aside) certain specializations can provide a most desirable grouping of talents that might otherwise be scattered among various other talent trees.

It is true that one would need a Force Rating to squeeze every bit of goodness from any Force and Destiny specialization, but you could (for example) run a mean Bounty Hunter: Martial Artist that took an extended dip through Shii-Cho Knight, or a Soldier: Medic that opened up into Healer/Protector for the Physician talents, or an Engineer that bought every single talent—save 5 Force talents—in the Artisan tree for amazing benefits (including the Master Artisan talent). A Hired Gun could benefit greatly from Aggressor, for all its ranked talents like Fearsome and Intimidating; not to mention the never-before-seen Prey on the Weak talent and the cheap occurrence of Crippling Blow. An ancient droid lightsaber Instructor (Commander) with the Advisor talent tree might be a great way to build a Huyang-inspired character. And so on. And that's just with a quick skim through the FaD core rulebook. Had I the time, I would build each character and then challenge you, The Void, to a build off. But let's face it; I'm busy, and you're a black empty space.

Your personal views and feelings on the matter are another thing entirely, The Void—and I applaud you for making decisions to put fun first at your table!

On 9.6.2017 at 5:13 PM, awayputurwpn said:

That's true as long as you haven't already loaded up on specializations! But I don't think I'd mind a player paying 20 XP to get FR 1 with no other benefits, actually. That seems like a perfectly reasonable course of action.

That is btw my only issue with the the universal specs in general. Universal specs should simply not count towards your total count of specialisations and bam, they become worth spending xp into, especially early on. you know that point in a PC career when they make the most sense. That is not limited to force specs either, it applies as well to recruit. Paying 20 or even 30 xp for the specs is fine, but if you take force emergent 2nd, while wanting to additional specs that force emergent is going to cost you 40 extra XP, just for the force rating, Even if you bring those two extra career skills both to 4 (which means all careers are at least 4 as well!), you skill only save 45 xp that way. And it is actually very rare to push that many career skills that high.

Though admitted force exile and force emergent are actually two quite good specs for quite a lot of different builds …

23 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Though admitted force exile and force emergent are actually two quite good specs for quite a lot of different builds …

So true. They are excellent and flexible support specializations.

I like the house rule suggestion, Universal Specs not counting towards your total specialization. I might make it so that the first one is like that; just costs 20 XP and doesn't count toward your total specs, but additional universal specs are full priced.

You could always place the universal specs into a separate category. So if you took exile for 20xp and then recruit for 30xp they wouldn't coun against takin your second career or non-caeer specialization.

I think things are fine how they are personally. Sometimes you have to pay a little more for something. I don't think that players shouldn't worry about squeezing every ounce of efficiency and power out of their xp and enjoy the game. But I do understand that for some getting the most out of their do is part of the fun.

5 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I think things are fine how they are personally. Sometimes you have to pay a little more for something. I don't think that players shouldn't worry about squeezing every ounce of efficiency and power out of their xp and enjoy the game. But I do understand that for some getting the most out of their do is part of the fun.

I agree. I can usually make sense of the RAW way of things, and have never personally had a reason to change it, although once I did give my players the option once of picking up a free universal specialization that didn't count towards their total. They all took the other option

I like your suggestion, just having them be a separate category. That could work too. Kinda like how Signature Abilities and Force powers have different rules governing their purchase & usage.

22 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I think things are fine how they are personally. Sometimes you have to pay a little more for something. I don't think that players shouldn't worry about squeezing every ounce of efficiency and power out of their xp and enjoy the game. But I do understand that for some getting the most out of their do is part of the fun.

This system tend to punish inefficiency harshly when your build is not carefully managed and crafted. A lot of people, myself included, can't stand this, so optimising xp becomes a thing.

Other systems are much more lenient in what you can do and how talents work and interact or just downright don't bother with "useless baggage" like talents and traits, just pure Skills and Characteristics and that's it for XP investments. Class-less and usually with the only access restriction in form of learning times (if any) and in some cases access to specials via trainers. If you remove the XP element on nearly anything, but the basic skills than efficiency is there regardless how you spend your XP, because you don't have this large synergies and interactions between several elements.

Alas FFG SWRPG is very synergie and talent heavy and this changes the approach of many players to the game. It makes the game as well more demanding in terms of investment into rules and game knowledge, which sometimes can take away from the actual character development and turns the game a little spreadsheet and dice heavy, which is kind ironic as the core of the dice is a narrative tool. That works a little as corrective tool, but I still wonder how the game would play if you remove all talents, careers and specs, add force sensitivity the only talent in the game and allow to raise characteristics by investing 2 times new value xp to raise those as well. Though I guess in that case force rating should be a secondary characteristic, unlocked by some xp cost and starting XP can only be used to unlock force rating via the force sensitivity talent and to buy skills.

I would assume the game would still work and keep a lot of its beauty, while becoming ultra simple. You even could in that case add the classic support one skill with another one via boost dice. Attack with your lightsaber while doing acrobatics? Roll lightsaber and add one boost die if your coordination skill is at least 4. Doing a faint via deception? Add a boost dice, etc … man, I actually miss the simplicity of Ubiquity and similar systems.

Ah, well anyway I think I have gone way off-topic here, sorry about that.

10 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

This system tend to punish efficiency were harshly when your build is not carefully managed and crafted. A lot of people, myself included, can't stand this, so optimising xp becomes a thing.

Other systems are much more lenient in what you can do and how talents work and interact or just downright don't bother with "useless baggage" like talents and traits, just pure Skills and Characteristics and that's it for XP investments. Class-less and usually with the only access restriction in form of learning times (if any) and in some cases access to specials via trainers. If you remove the XP element nearly anything, but the basic skills than efficiency is there regardless how you spend your XP, because you don't have this large synergies and interactions between several elements.

Alas FFG SWRPG is very synergie and talent heavy and this changes the approach of many players to the game. It makes the game as well more demanding in terms of investment into rules and game knowledge, which sometimes can take away from the actual character development and turn the game a little spreadsheet and dice heavy, which is kind ironic as the core of the dice is narrative tool. That works a little as corrective tool, but I still wonder how the game would play if you remove all talents, careers and specs, add force sensitivity the only talent in the game and allow to raise characteristics by investing 2 x times new value xp to raise those as well. Though I guess in that case force rating should be a secondary characteristic, unlocked by some xp cost and starting XP can only be used to unlock force rating via the force sensitivity talent and to buy skills.

I would assume the game would still work and keep a lot of its beauty, while becoming ultra simple. You even could in that case add the classic support one skill with another one via boost dice. Attack with your lightsaber while doing acrobatics? Roll lightsaber and add one boost die if your coordination skill is at least 4. Doing a faint via deception? Add a boost dice, etc … man, I actually miss the simplicity of Ubiquity and similar systems.

Ah, well anyway I think I have gone way off-topic here, sorry about that.

That's fine.

But, man, this debate is hard to follow.

You could always house rule that any character with an Edge or Age career can elect to start with two less career skills (effectively -1 rank of Well Rounded) and 1 less free skill rank to allocate among the remaining career skills in exchange for starting with Force Rating 1. This would then allow them to buy into and fully use any of the FaD specializations without bothering with the Emergent or Exile.

43 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You could always house rule that any character with an Edge or Age career can elect to start with two less career skills (effectively -1 rank of Well Rounded) and 1 less free skill rank to allocate among the remaining career skills in exchange for starting with Force Rating 1. This would then allow them to buy into and fully use any of the FaD specializations without bothering with the Emergent or Exile.

It is as well a cool way to directly start with a force sensitive without either taking away XP for your starting characteristics while being free to start with a non-FaD career. Leaves players more choice with their signature abilities.

14 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Alas FFG SWRPG is very synergie and talent heavy and this changes the approach of many players to the game. It makes the game as well more demanding in terms of investment into rules and game knowledge, which sometimes can take away from the actual character development and turns the game a little spreadsheet and dice heavy, which is kind ironic as the core of the dice is a narrative tool. That works a little as corrective tool, but I still wonder how the game would play if you remove all talents, careers and specs, add force sensitivity the only talent in the game and allow to raise characteristics by investing 2 times new value xp to raise those as well. Though I guess in that case force rating should be a secondary characteristic, unlocked by some xp cost and starting XP can only be used to unlock force rating via the force sensitivity talent and to buy skills.

Wow, your gaming group must play the game completely differently from mine. For us, the question isn't "how to I milk the most stuff for my XP" and more "Oh, we just got some XP. That's a cool talent; I'll try that." I think player and group mindsets affect a lot of what you're talking about. We've been having a blast, and no one seems upset that their characters may not be the most "optimized" mechanics-wise. Not judging, mind you. Just pointing out that the issues you're facing are not necessarily inherent in the system itself.

18 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

Wow, your gaming group must play the game completely differently from mine. For us, the question isn't "how to I milk the most stuff for my XP" and more "Oh, we just got some XP. That's a cool talent; I'll try that." I think player and group mindsets affect a lot of what you're talking about. We've been having a blast, and no one seems upset that their characters may not be the most "optimized" mechanics-wise. Not judging, mind you. Just pointing out that the issues you're facing are not necessarily inherent in the system itself.

As the "issue" is specific to the system, I would say the issue is within the system. That it does not necessary applies to all players goes without saying. And it actually does not apply to all players in the group either. Besides, the amount of complains about the autofire quality, balance and jury rigging suggest that it is not just my group which bothers with character and xp optimisation … ironically all that does not bother us at all, characters work fine with or without autofire, etc with all those synergies in the talent trees, gear and equipment basically everything is op anyway. Which is very fitting for the cinematic experience of the game. It is not like we are not having a blast, but the game system most certainly is heavy on the gamey sides of things and a lot of those systems, rules, etc are scattered in around 30 different books.

That really is a lot of mechanics, effects and synergies to play around with.

6 hours ago, Matt Skywalker said:

That's fine.

But, man, this debate is hard to follow.

Ask a group of 10 gamers a question, get 12 different answers

That's not counting the consequential rabbit-trails and rants.

2 hours ago, SavageBob said:

Wow, your gaming group must play the game completely differently from mine. For us, the question isn't "how to I milk the most stuff for my XP" and more "Oh, we just got some XP. That's a cool talent; I'll try that." I think player and group mindsets affect a lot of what you're talking about. We've been having a blast, and no one seems upset that their characters may not be the most "optimized" mechanics-wise. Not judging, mind you. Just pointing out that the issues you're facing are not necessarily inherent in the system itself.

I would agree more with this sentiment. The system does support min-maxing in its own way, but I wouldn't say it necessitates it by any stretch, and the "issue," therefore, doesn't actually seem to be so much an issue. At least, from my experience.

But then, I have definite power-gamer tendencies! My players know this, and will ask for the occasional suggestion on how to get a little oomph out of their builds. So I suppose it could depend on what one would define as "efficiency" or "inefficiency" For example, some GMs and gamers I've gamed with might poo-poo a starting high characteristic of 3 as "inefficient," because for some ungodly reason they set their default task difficulty at Hard for starting characters. Whereas I would generally set my default task difficulty for beginning characters at Average, so a high characteristic of 3 isn't an issue. On the other side of the coin, you could "inefficiently" build a Twi'lek Marauder and put all your starting XP towards maxing out Presence and nothing in Brawn, but then what are you doing with your life...? At that point it's not inefficiency; it's intentionally stupidity on the part of the wimpy Twi'lek, trying to make it with that career

Talk about games that punish inefficiency: The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion video game. If you didn't think through your character build from level 1, and level up efficiently, you could easily wind up hosed. Earlier d20 games are, in many ways, guilty of this as well. I GM'd a game of Saga Edition a while back where a player chose to roll his stats and got really low, I think his highest was a 12 and everything else was 10 or lower. And then he went pure Scoundrel and tried to run it like a combat class. It just didn't work out well for him.

I would say that, while it's my experience that this game doesn't necessarily punish inefficiency, it does reward efficiency to a high degree. So there's that. It could just be that "inefficient" players feel like they're getting hosed by their mediocre results, comparative to those of their more-efficient compatriots.

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TL;DR: My point is, I guess, there are degrees of efficiency I can see how one might shoot themselves in the foot and build an "inefficient" character, but for me it's only theory.