3 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

You joke, but aren't Punishers like, very overcosted for their inherent statline? Their PS2 generic is 3 points higher than the Y-Wing generic for 1 hull, a boost and the ability to equip a lot of upgrade slots which cost points to use anyway.

I never understood this line of thinking by FFG, surely the cost of the upgrades are cost to add them to a ship. Having different upgrade slots means bubkiss if you dont put anything in them. It just creates crazy over costed ships that are virtually never seen in competitive play.

1 hour ago, NakedDex said:

<Punisher title name with some kind of SW jargon here>

TIE/IT or TIE Interdictor.

Probably depends on if you're TIE/D-ing it (an ability it should have always had) or Starviper Mk II/Chardaan refit-ing (To indicate a later production model which was more cost effective somehow)

25 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I never understood this line of thinking by FFG, surely the cost of the upgrades are cost to add them to a ship. Having different upgrade slots means bubkiss if you dont put anything in them. It just creates crazy over costed ships that are virtually never seen in competitive play.

I mean, some upgrades are very good. Especially early you can see that with like, the System upgrade, almost constantly with EPTs, etc. However, paying additional points overall for upgrades of a type which are also high cost and limited use (I/E ordnance) is almost always bad - it's probably why A-Wings got Chardaan at -2.

You can tell they've generally learned their lesson with the influx of occasional 0 point upgrades - many of them like Integrated Astromech or Guidance Chips require you to be using another upgrade with a non-zero cost in the first place.

2 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

TIE/IT or TIE Interdictor.

Probably depends on if you're TIE/D-ing it (an ability it should have always had) or Starviper Mk II/Chardaan refit-ing (To indicate a later production model which was more cost effective somehow)

Interdictor for Boost+action action economy.

Deathrain with Expirimental Interface works, at least as long as his bombs last, but costs too much. And Redline cant use boost hardly at all.

38 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Interdictor for Boost+action action economy.

Deathrain with Expirimental Interface works, at least as long as his bombs last, but costs too much. And Redline cant use boost hardly at all.

I do think that this is the most elegant fix as the boost let's it stand out from the Bomber without really altering it's role. On it's own however it doesn't help the durability issue and only slightly increases the cost efficiency.

7 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

You joke, but aren't Punishers like, very overcosted for their inherent statline? Their PS2 generic is 3 points higher than the Y-Wing generic for 1 hull, a boost and the ability to equip a lot of upgrade slots which cost points to use anyway.

The bigger issue is when list building. The TIE Bomber can do most of what the Punisher can only a lot cheaper - 5 points cheaper for the generic. On top on that durability is about the same 6 hull and 2 agility seems about the same as 6 hull, 3 shields and 1 agility.

12 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

The bigger issue is when list building. The TIE Bomber can do most of what the Punisher can only a lot cheaper - 5 points cheaper for the generic. On top on that durability is about the same 6 hull and 2 agility seems about the same as 6 hull, 3 shields and 1 agility.

This. The system slot and boost action are cool but they just aren't enough to make it stand out from it's little sister and while the extra bomb slot could be nice any advantage those things could give is completely offset by the total lack of EPTs on all pilots.

How about a title that gives them nera's ability and can shoot ordnance out of arc. Nera never uses it and it would make the punisher a new niche, missle turrents! Lol

I'd even give it a no mod clause if you shoot out of arc but I think this would give the ship a better shot because it wouldn't need to make a run it can run and gun forcing things to chase it.

Just now, LordFajubi said:

How about a title that gives them nera's ability and can shoot ordnance out of arc. Nera never uses it and it would make the punisher a new niche, missle turrents! Lol

The punisher's niche was supposed to be a missile/bomb platform with boost. They clearly didnt think that one all the way through.

1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

The punisher's niche was supposed to be a missile/bomb platform with boost. They clearly didnt think that one all the way through.

Funny with slam what you describe is a k wing. The punisher needs something else, Imps don't get sabine so let rebels have the bombs.

7 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Funny with slam what you describe is a k wing. The punisher needs something else, Imps don't get sabine so let rebels have the bombs.

There are other ways to make bombs work for them.

2 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

There are other ways to make bombs work for them.

True but without Sabine and without the k wing platform it will always be sub-optimal vs a rebel bomber. I have no problems with rebels being the best at it, I have no issues with other factions using them, I just think instead of trying to make a punisher a k wing they should make it a punisher.

Not original ideas, but I am partial to suggestions along these lines.

Title Upgrade

"Your upgrade bar gains the Reinforce action.

Once per round, after acquiring a Target Lock, assign a Reinforce token to your ship."

System Upgrade

"When a secondary weapon instructs you to spend a Target Lock you may immediately acquire a Target Lock."

(will wait to see what Bomblet Generator and Minelaying Matrix - or whatever they're called - do before asking for a Bomb-related enhancement)

6 minutes ago, ABXY said:

Not original ideas, but I am partial to suggestions along these lines.

Title Upgrade

"Your upgrade bar gains the Reinforce action.

Once per round, after acquiring a Target Lock, assign a Reinforce token to your ship."

System Upgrade

"When a secondary weapon instructs you to spend a Target Lock you may immediately acquire a Target Lock."

(will wait to see what Bomblet Generator and Minelaying Matrix - or whatever they're called - do before asking for a Bomb-related enhancement)

The reinforce idea is a cool one though I'm not sure on the mechanics. You are essentially required to TL every turn and never use any other actions like your boost.

55 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

The reinforce idea is a cool one though I'm not sure on the mechanics. You are essentially required to TL every turn and never use any other actions like your boost.

It's on the action bar, so you could reinforce purely as a defensive option when outmanoeuvred.

Still, you have a point... another possibility is taking it off the bar, and instead have "Once per round, after performing an action during the Perform Action step, assign 1 reinforce token to your ship."

(hmmm, would you have to specify 'fore' or 'aft' token because it's a small ship??...)

- - - - -

PS - repeatedly getting TL's to trigger title abilities isn't something unfamiliar to Imperials (TIE v1 & x1).

(but both of those do make it hard for low PS to get much out of them - which sucks)

1 hour ago, ABXY said:

It's on the action bar, so you could reinforce purely as a defensive option when outmanoeuvred.

Still, you have a point... another possibility is taking it off the bar, and instead have "Once per round, after performing an action during the Perform Action step, assign 1 reinforce token to your ship."

(hmmm, would you have to specify 'fore' or 'aft' token because it's a small ship??...)

- - - - -

PS - repeatedly getting TL's to trigger title abilities isn't something unfamiliar to Imperials (TIE v1 & x1).

(but both of those do make it hard for low PS to get much out of them - which sucks)

The difference with the X1 is that you only need to do it when you are changing targets and the V1 has access to PTL and a dial to make excellent use of it so they still get other actions. The Punisher has no EPT slot and a dial which makes stress rather hard to clear even if it could use PTL. That method could work though I'm thinking it would still need something to help it's offense, the lack of an EPT slot I think hurts it more than people realize because it means if it boosts it's giving up having any dice mods for that round unless it already has a target lock and even then most ordinance will use that up unless you are Redline.

Selfdestruct - title.

At the start of the combat phase, select one enemy within range 1. Roll number of red dice corresponding to the combined sum of red dice on your munitions+2 for its red dice. If you have GC you may change one dice to hit. The enemy suffer the rolled damage. Then remove your ship.

(Just for laughs)

5 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

The punisher's niche was supposed to be a missile/bomb platform with boost. They clearly didnt think that one all the way through.

I think we are seeing the start of Punishers getting there as bombers - Unguided Rockets (for non-action bombs), Lightweight Frame but still the TIE Bomber can take these (although LWF is almost certain to trigger more often). Another enabler might be the new bomb system in the H6 Scrugg Bomber.

12 hours ago, Princezilla said:

Infinite ammo won't really help the Punisher because one of it's biggist problems is that it dies so quickly it can't even get the ones it can already carry off.

Agreed, either have to increase durability, allow it to dual fire (preferred since a punisher should punish), or maybe increase the primary to 3, but like that option the least.

7 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

The punisher's niche was supposed to be a missile/bomb platform with boost. They clearly didnt think that one all the way through.

Boy, this is an understatement!!

I'm not sure FFG thought about this ship at all over making it a beefier TIE Bomber with lots of munitions slots, both of which are useless. TIE Bombers are just better on all counts. Don't get me wrong, I love my Punisher, but it is a let down machine. Heck, I only got her to unload all her ordinance once in a game and I've flown her dozens of times with every bent I can think of. It's just sooooo BADLY designed in the details that matter for actual game-play, that it's shocking really. Compared to the K-Wing, which was supposed to be it's Rebel counterpart and be game balanced against, it is found sorely lacking in every department.

13 hours ago, Princezilla said:

Nah, it's partially the cost and partially it's very low durability to target priority ratio. As an ordinance carrier it draws a ton of fire and yet it is squishier then a shuttle dispite being roughly the same cost and lacking the base fire power. To top it off you need to spend a minimum of five points to make it useful and needs to catch enemies inside it's arc with a target lock to use those points.

^This. It's just dies too fast. So, if you load it for bear, you just painted a bullseye on it that it is a squishy point sink. And if you don't load it up, well, then just use a cheaper bomber for 1 or 2 bits of boom.

It doesn't need unlimited ammo. I already can't get the ammo I put on it out of the tubes. It needs a higher rate of fire to make it deadly with the ammo it can have.

The other thing that kills this ship for me is no EPT on the mid-PS generic. There is no way to trick it out to increase the pilot's ability to get a shot.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

The other thing that kills this ship for me is no EPT on the mid-PS generic. There is no way to trick it out to increase the pilot's ability to get a shot.

This is a big one, especially after making dead-eye small ship only. THE heavy ordnance carrier, small base, for imps can't even take it. None of them, that is really dumb.

21 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

This is a big one, especially after making dead-eye small ship only. THE heavy ordnance carrier, small base, for imps can't even take it. None of them, that is really dumb.

They tried to hard to make it's slots parallel to the K Wing's but really botched it, they way overestimated the the value and utility of the Punisher's upgrade slots.

Well, speculating but FFG has been pretty good about playing to people's expectations; Wave XI will do some milage for the Punisher.

Unguided rockets is probably better on Bombers and Aggressors. but if you really liked punishers, you can run 4 PS2s with UR and LWF for 100 points and that's 4 9 HP ships with 3 ATK and almost always 2 defense, assuming you can get your tokens. Maybe drop one Punisher for a TIE shuttle with like, OpSpec or something. If Minefield Map with the H-6 does what it sounds like it does assuming it's not too expensive this could help the "ammo" problem by letting you have punishers hopefully pre-deploy mine-type bombs before the game even starts - this would give Punishers an edge over other heavy bombers because the card itself isn't restricted or unique - but H-6 can only have one with a system slot (Havoc Title).

Bomblet Generator is more shaky, it's a unique and might be limited to the H-6 itself. That is the weapon system that gives the Havoc unlimited bombs, though.

Throwing this out there... maybe allow it to lock on and fire ordinance outside range 3 while defenders treat those attacks like at range 2 and/or change all bombs into mines if desired?