On 2017-6-5 at 5:39 PM, Stone37 said:

Only playing one game against an opponent is also more deckbuilding and luck than it is skill. And yes, I do think this game should be over within 3 or 4 rounds. Any cards that need 5 rounds to win are too slow for a advertised 20 minute game.

Not sure where you're getting that it is advertised as a 20 minutes game.

On the main page, the suggested time is 30 minutes and in the tournament regulation document, it is set as 35 minutes rounds.

Designer also said in an interview that 5 rounds is the standard he is aiming for, that the current game with SoR might be slightly too fast.

On 6/5/2017 at 2:29 PM, Stone37 said:

Dear God no! This is suppose to be a card game that can easily be played inside of 20 minutes. If anything, the game needs to speed up! Best of 3 matches is the true test of a deck and player. Right now, a 20 or 30 minute round could only fairly fit a single game.

God pls no tempo change. Speeding up the game is no no. Slowing also. Lets keep it where it is for now. In our local meta we have matches like 4 minutes poe/maz vs epalp duels as well as time ended eunkar/royal/tie milling. This one aspect is very healthy.

On 6/5/2017 at 5:16 AM, Kieransi said:

It's a problem, but it's not ruining the meta or completely broken. Check out the Chance Cube's recent numbers on the meta:

http://www.thechancecube.com/2017/05/29/meta-tracker-report-week-ending-52717/

more telling perhaps are the tournament results, but even there, Poe/Maz wins less than half the time. It's really good, but it doesn't just insta-win:

http://www.thechancecube.com/meta/2017-store-championships-meta-report/

(end quote)

The results differ greatly between competitive championships and less competitive tournaments, where people seem to avoid running it, because they don't like the hate it instills. If it were auto-win, the percent in the "win" pie would be four times the percent in the "top four" pie, which isn't the case, but it does seem that a well-built Poe/Maz wins with alarming frequency. There's also a lot of poor Poe/Maz builds - there's still some skill involved in building it. I do agree that it's the most powerful thing in the game, but I don't think I (or anyone) has the data to say whether it's overpowered and deserving of nerf(s).

Oh this pies show that meta is SOOOO dominated by poe/maz

But i agree about the hate...dunno whats wrong with people but some more competetive players in our group are really irritated when they face good poe/maz deck.

After playing vs a few more Poe/ anyone decks I can say just one thing the only bad card is planetary uprising. Simply put I retract my previous opinions about both Poe and Maz and double my hate for planetary uprising.

2 hours ago, TimMurrayJR said:

After playing vs a few more Poe/ anyone decks I can say just one thing the only bad card is planetary uprising. Simply put I retract my previous opinions about both Poe and Maz and double my hate for planetary uprising.

Counter it with Snap - i would not even bother with playing uprising if i would face Snap.

Other than that its still the same problem - surviving Poe's burst.

6 hours ago, Vitalis said:

God pls no tempo change. Speeding up the game is no no. Slowing also. Lets keep it where it is for now. In our local meta we have matches like 4 minutes poe/maz vs epalp duels as well as time ended eunkar/royal/tie milling. This one aspect is very healthy.

I could not agree more. This game plays very well when it lasts between 20 and 30 minutes. Anything longer feels drawn out and anything shorter usually is a frustrating one-sided beating.

Not sure it needs a fix. It didn't even make top 4 at Euros

On 06/05/2017 at 8:29 AM, Stone37 said:

Dear God no! This is suppose to be a card game that can easily be played inside of 20 minutes. If anything, the game needs to speed up!

On 06/05/2017 at 5:39 PM, Stone37 said:

And yes, I do think this game should be over within 3 or 4 rounds. Any cards that need 5 rounds to win are too slow for a advertised 20 minute game.

2 hours ago, Stone37 said:

I could not agree more. This game plays very well when it lasts between 20 and 30 minutes. Anything longer feels drawn out and anything shorter usually is a frustrating one-sided beating.

I have no idea what you actually want, but apparently neither do you?

Humble thoughts/opinions paired with paraphrased quotes:

First off, individually Poe and Maz are not broken. Poe and Maz, as characters and in conjunction, are not broken either. I really love the synergies of their abilities, upgrades and events (a fast agro deck). However, one card appears problematic and that is the Emperor's Throne Room. In Tiny Grimes' latest podcast, he makes a case for a Poe/Maz errata; Poe and Maz don't have to roll dice well, but can still get damage that hits consistently and for a ton of health (via Emperor's Throne Room). I agree with his thoughts and will focus my argument on the damage dealing without having to roll well.

If Poe Fast Hands me, I'm good because (A) Poe has to roll dice well and (B) there is game balance that allows other characters to Fast Hands too. Maz's ability is awesome; she trades individual health and damage to facilitate other high damage healing heroes (like Poe). This deck teeters on "broken" because the Emperor's Throne Room, coupled with Poe's special, creates a one of a kind scenario where a sole character can do high amounts of unmitigated damage without ever having to roll dice. To be clear, Poe's special is fun and fantastic (high one shot damage without ever having to pay resources), and creates amazingly fun deck building opportunities. But being able to deal high damage without resources and dice rolling creates a competitive imbalance that is unique to Poe Dameron.

In closing, when interviewed by Team Covenant, Lukas Litzsinger said that the most difficult cards to develop were the battlefields. If I recall correctly, he said that they can create competive imbalances. If an errata regarding Poe/Maz were to take place, I would like it to be to the Empereor's Throne Room and not to Poe or Maz. It may be as simple as banning the Throne Room. Personally, I am enjoying the hunt of attempting to build a deck that can consistently topple this pereceived giant. When taking up any competitive hobby, I love to challenge the conventional meta and try to take the path less traveled. That being said, for those that prioritize the winning of these competitive tournaments, a single deck's domination may not be beneficial to health of the game (as evidenced by the European Championship, and the % of Poe Maz decks that finished in the top 20).

The problem with Poe is that, combined with Maz, it eliminates most of the chance/luck that drives Destiny. There are lots of things in the game that speed up play, but Poe/Maz is the only one that I can think of that nearly eliminates chance from the mechanics.

Not completely...you still need to draw a card for Poe to discard, and Hit and Run if you don't want to risk having a Poe die removed. And you need to get that special on Poe. But Maz gives you a 5/9 chance of rolling a Focus, so it of course doesn't matter what you roll on Poe in many cases, because then you can resolve the Focus and Poe uninterrupted.

But the chance ends there. Once you combine those elements, Poe then gets to use the best result from the card he's discarding. 2199 has to roll his dice in order to use it. Palpatine has to roll and resolve. Tusken Raider has to roll it's dice....Poe/Maz is the only combo that is not only highly unstoppable, but supreme in it's potency once you hit it. Mechanically it's unlike anything else in the game, and superior to any other combo you can put together in it's reliability.

Which is not to say that there are not more powerful combos possible in the game. It's just the most reliable and the the least subject to disruption.

3 hours ago, RJM said:

I have no idea what you actually want, but apparently neither do you?

I want a game that plays inside of 30 minutes. (That means the maximum time should be 30, not the average.) 5 rounds is pushing it for this game. Generally, 3 or 4 rounds can be played inside of that half-hour time frame. Any card that NEEDS 5 rounds to be effective is just too slow for the speed of this game.

What I want is a meta that continues to see games end inside of 30 minutes and in 5 rounds or less.

Our meta, when facing good decks, sees games end in 3 rounds, with that third round typically just being formality. That takes less than 10 minutes to play and is way too quick. Even slow decks with Jabba mill play quickly because they empty an opponent's hand and therefore options. Those games may go five rounds, but they only take 20 minutes. Two good players with decks they've played before play way faster than 30 minutes. This game should be slowed down some if they want it to stay accessible for newer players.

Lukas knows about this deck and is monitoring it. Real world data, such as that from the store championship results, is needed before anything will happen, or more likely, not happen.

1 hour ago, Stone37 said:

I want a game that plays inside of 30 minutes. (That means the maximum time should be 30, not the average.) 5 rounds is pushing it for this game. Generally, 3 or 4 rounds can be played inside of that half-hour time frame. Any card that NEEDS 5 rounds to be effective is just too slow for the speed of this game.

What I want is a meta that continues to see games end inside of 30 minutes and in 5 rounds or less.

I play mill almost exclusively, and I've never had a tournament game go to time. If you've got people pushing 10 minutes a round, the issues is with your players and not the game.

Does no one run removal... and any PoeMaz deck that runs Emp Throne Room is sub optimal. With the exception of the hit and run turn, there is ALWAYS a window to remove a Poe di. Even if Poe throws a Falcon every turn that is ONLY 4dmg a turn. Most other decks can easily exceed that output. So now all you have to do is prepare for the thermal and Hit and Run turns.. easy enough... just add shields to absorb the burst.

38 minutes ago, Bigulf said:

Does no one run removal... and any PoeMaz deck that runs Emp Throne Room is sub optimal. With the exception of the hit and run turn, there is ALWAYS a window to remove a Poe di. Even if Poe throws a Falcon every turn that is ONLY 4dmg a turn.

Against most decks, if you can remove one die a roll of 3 damage and a blank means you remove the damage, and take none. Against most decks, a Focus+Blank means they use the focus, then you remove the die they changed. If they've got a good, a bad, and a focus (sounds like a movie title) then they'll get one good, but at the cost of 3 dice.

None of this applies to Poe/Maz. Removing the better die means you still take anywhere from 4-9 damage depending on what they have in their hand. A number of removal options also just plain don't work - if Poe/Maz has initiative, He Doesn't Like You might as well be Abandon All Hope, because it's just as useless.

Poe/Maz isn't doing "Only 4 damage a turn", it's doing those four damage a turn in situations where almost every other deck in the game would be doing zero or 1.

1 hour ago, Buhallin said:

Against most decks, if you can remove one die a roll of 3 damage and a blank means you remove the damage, and take none. Against most decks, a Focus+Blank means they use the focus, then you remove the die they changed. If they've got a good, a bad, and a focus (sounds like a movie title) then they'll get one good, but at the cost of 3 dice.

None of this applies to Poe/Maz. Removing the better die means you still take anywhere from 4-9 damage depending on what they have in their hand. A number of removal options also just plain don't work - if Poe/Maz has initiative, He Doesn't Like You might as well be Abandon All Hope, because it's just as useless.

Poe/Maz isn't doing "Only 4 damage a turn", it's doing those four damage a turn in situations where almost every other deck in the game would be doing zero or 1.

Other decks play upgrades onto their characters. Remove one die and they still have 4+ dice to resolve or manipulate into damage. Removing 1 die shouldn't turn it into zero or 1 damage unless it's a mill deck, a really bad deck, or a good deck having a really bad turn.

6 hours ago, Bigulf said:

Does no one run removal... and any PoeMaz deck that runs Emp Throne Room is sub optimal. With the exception of the hit and run turn, there is ALWAYS a window to remove a Poe di. Even if Poe throws a Falcon every turn that is ONLY 4dmg a turn. Most other decks can easily exceed that output. So now all you have to do is prepare for the thermal and Hit and Run turns.. easy enough... just add shields to absorb the burst.

At last someone who is thinking when deckbuilding, cheers too you good sir. This deck got its weaknesses like anything else, people are just still trying to use a hammer to screw screw...

As for the the battlefield - i think its more meta oriented. In my group no one has an idea how to play vs poe/maz so i can easy run ETR to just speed things up even more. But yes i agree: when they start to use screwdrivers, i guess changing to Frozen Wastes is pretty solid idea.

5 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Against most decks, if you can remove one die a roll of 3 damage and a blank means you remove the damage, and take none. Against most decks, a Focus+Blank means they use the focus, then you remove the die they changed. If they've got a good, a bad, and a focus (sounds like a movie title) then they'll get one good, but at the cost of 3 dice.

If you manage to remove Poe dice it still means less damage to you - either is this 3gun removed or anything else that could potentially be turned to special.

5 hours ago, Buhallin said:

None of this applies to Poe/Maz. Removing the better die means you still take anywhere from 4-9 damage depending on what they have in their hand. A number of removal options also just plain don't work - if Poe/Maz has initiative, He Doesn't Like You might as well be Abandon All Hope, because it's just as useless.

Why? If you removed a die you remove a die. Either that means you removed a gun or no double special for him this turn. Plus there are only 2 hit and runs in deck. And unless your are playing some 4 characters villain deck even Poe can't kill you in 2 turns. Plus he needs to draw those.

5 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Poe/Maz isn't doing "Only 4 damage a turn", it's doing those four damage a turn in situations where almost every other deck in the game would be doing zero or 1.

Its just consistent and can squeeze most out of what it has. Yesterday i was playing against eLuke/Maz: beetween fast hads, force speed and Maz this deck was as fast as ePoe/eMaz and dishing out pretty much the same damage from lukes dices. I had almost no time to react, and when i had i removed 3sword dice and then he focused to another 3 sword with Maz and resolve it in instant. Shall i now shout "nerf Luke/Maz"?

Im almost tired of repeating this: solutions are out there. Just use a brain and find them. Deck is fine, meta stats confirm it, its nowhere near even 50% domination....

I don't support any nerf whatsoever but if they would limit Poe to Supports and/or Vehicles only, they would need to low Finn cost to 12/16 to have the bromance we all deserved

7 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Against most decks, if you can remove one die a roll of 3 damage and a blank means you remove the damage, and take none. Against most decks, a Focus+Blank means they use the focus, then you remove the die they changed. If they've got a good, a bad, and a focus (sounds like a movie title) then they'll get one good, but at the cost of 3 dice.

None of this applies to Poe/Maz. Removing the better die means you still take anywhere from 4-9 damage depending on what they have in their hand. A number of removal options also just plain don't work - if Poe/Maz has initiative, He Doesn't Like You might as well be Abandon All Hope, because it's just as useless.

Poe/Maz isn't doing "Only 4 damage a turn", it's doing those four damage a turn in situations where almost every other deck in the game would be doing zero or 1.

Other decks have more than 2 dice on table which actually can do damage. Maybe with exception of Vader Raider, where Rader die is on par with Maz damage output, but there you have Bait and Switch and Force Strikes so you are also cheating out damage. Other decks like lets say eKylo + eVader or ePhasma, Guavian, Stormtrooper has much higher amount of dice able to roll damage than ePoe eMaz. So your point is really not valid (either in case, that Poe/Maz player actually plays some upgrades like Goggles, Cunning or DL-44 as it is smart thing to do). In Poe Maz, when you remove one Poes die, you have only one die sitting there possibly doing something, in other decks, there are usually other 3 dice capable of do some serious things + some upgrades.

Lastly, most of you here mention all the time how broken is the Emperors Throne Room in that deck. From my experience, I almost never win the battlefield roll, so when that BF hits the table it is through Hyperspace/New Orders. As New Orders is general neutral card, everyone has the possibility to play it in his deck to get out of Throne Room asap. But whining seems more popular, because who cares about new orders and removal in his deck because he would have to make some spots for it...

Strengths of Poe/Maz are speed and consistency, not dice per se

On 6/4/2017 at 4:40 PM, drunkensith said:

I really don't see a problem with this deck. if you look at the top 4 decks in tournament reports this deck is less than 20%. the field actually looks quit diverse. Plus there are already some great counters for this deck.

What are the counters?

6 hours ago, blackholexan said:

... they would need to low Finn cost to 12/16 to have the bromance we all deserved

RIGHT!? It's like FFG is actively keeping these two apart! Finn / ePoe should be a possibility!

1 hour ago, RocketDarth said:

What are the counters?

Good piloted palpatine deck, eLuke/Rey (maybe also some other alterations of Luke deck not sure), ePhasma deck.

All of them have at least 50% chance to win, I think the matchup is slightly in their favour.

I've been play testing against the Poe/Maz deck while getting ready for my store championship. What I've noticed is that the deck hardly uses any resources to produce 4-8 damage a round. I feel that it is the economy of the deck that is broken. Correct me if I'm wrong but every other "tier 1" deck requires the use of resources to put of that kind of damage (not too sure about Palpatine). In a Poe/Max deck there is hardly any resource concern which allows players to not only play a Thermal and a Falcon but also a Planetary Uprising in a single round. Other decks require you to make resource decisions. Do I save my resources to play an Electroshock or do I play this 2 cost upgrade in my hand? In the Poe/Maz deck a player can essentially "play the upgrade" through Poe's ability and the Electroshock and another 1 cost card. If anything needs to be fixed about this deck it is the economy of the deck. I seem to recall someone suggested that the Poe special be changed to be a 1 cost special. If there is going to be errata this seems like the best way to go. It would force Poe/Maz players to decide on playing the Planetary Uprising or using Poe's specials. At the very least is would slow the deck down but not completely gimp the deck (like an only vehicles errata might).

14 hours ago, Hennessy said:

Good piloted palpatine deck, eLuke/Rey (maybe also some other alterations of Luke deck not sure), ePhasma deck.

All of them have at least 50% chance to win, I think the matchup is slightly in their favour.

In my testing with and against Poe/Maz I did not find any 3 character list (including ePhasma) that was favoured against Moe, thermal and u-wing simply too much damage to contend with and fast hands + maz focus effects neutered guardian. I found Vader / Raider to be a tougher matchup that the 3 listed but still evenly matched at worst. Even if we agree on the "at least 50%" chance to win of the referenced decks I would disagree that they would be a "counter". Given Moe is heavily favoured against many decks, it requires the existence of a deck that is -- a) at least 65% (and probably 70%) favoured against it across many games, b) also good against the general field so it can escape swiss. Having a few decks that might be 55% against Moe does not really diminish the incentive to play the deck imho.