!!!!Warning frustration vent following!!!!

I copy-paste my post from "Dragons have landed" news page:

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I love BattleLore but DoW killed it with costly subpar expansions. I have high hopes for BattleLore's resurrection from FFG but if they continue the same route DoW took with the expansions then unfortunately BattleLore will not go very far, at least for me.

Please FFG! Please! Stop making these ridiculously low-content expansions for such a high price. All FFG fans know that FFG makes big box games, medium box games etc. Why not make a BattleLore expansion with a lot of content? Noone will complain if they pay a little more money and get more content.

The reasoning that people will not pay 60$ for an expansion is ridiculous. If you add the cost for Dragons and later Creatures it's 70$ and see what you get! It's absurd! Other FFG games with a 70$ price tag had so much more material than that that I can't help but wonder what a 70-80$ big expansion for BattleLore will have content and miniature-wise.

I really don't want to buy another low-content expansion, FFG. 3 figures and 4 cards are not going to cut it. My problem is not that I don't have the money, far from it. My problem is that buying this expansion for 35$ feels like a rip-off.

Unfortunately we have to suffer through BattleLore: Creatures (same low content especially for people that already have the promo figures, same ridiculous cost) until a new BattleLore product is announced...

Here is hoping for a pure FFG expansion (I believe that Dragons, Heroes and Creatures were a by-product from the DoW expansion line).
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Sorry but needed to say it. BattleLore is my favorite game. The only game I have rated a 10 {BGG}. I was extremely unhappy with Days of Wonder treatement to the game and I was very very happy when FFG took over. Now I see that they take the same route as DoW. Low content expansions every 3 months. No! Not again!

If anyone from FFG is reading this, please please stop this kind of expansion planning for the game. An FFG medium sized box every year or 8 months with a lot of content is going to be much better. Just follow the normal FFG expansion planning.

I wouldn't mind at all to buy even a 100$ BattleLore box if it has the usual FFG numbers and quality component treatment we all know and love. But an expansion with 3 figures and 4 cards every two months?? No, I feel ripped-off buying this. Sorry. Not Dragons, not Creatures. At least Heroes changed the fundamentals of the game and although it was equally expensive component-wise it offered new gameplay. Dragons and Creatures just add minis.

Don't pull a DoW on us!

pfffff! Vented...

I'd have to agree with you here. Fantasy Flight has "spoiled" us all these years with unparalleled production quality and games which are both visually stunning to the eye and great to play. With the "heroes" expansion, FF introduced new gameplay and hinted towards a campaign system. Although the expansion did sport a hefty price tag, I was more than willing to foot the bill since "heroes" added a whole new array of exciting possibilities (although I must gripe about the collorless item deck here: Come on!!!! Where's some artwork? A nice drawing? We payed 40$ for this!). With the dragons and creatures expansion I feel a bit ripped off. Again, don't get me wrong, it's not about the money. If I'm willing to pay 100$ for Runewars do you think I can't spare the 35$ for Dragons or Creatures? But look at what you get with Runewars and what little you get with dragons. It's not the pricetag; it's the sense that we're being milked exactly like the previous owner of the game did. And believe me, once the feeling of the hard core customer turns sour, he's out of the game and he's out for good.

Since FF is my favorite publisher and at least in my regard, has set the standards when it comes to production quality, art presentation and customer services, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these two expansions. I am willing to accept that these where pre-determined expansions bought over as a package from the previous owner of the game. But I won't be buying them unless I see in concrete terms, where this game is headed. We all have seen the high quality expansions that FF produces for other games it owns. I'd like to see a hard cover expansion loaded with goodies and I'd be willing to pay the 60-70$ price tag associated with it. With all due respect, DoW did everything it could to douse the flame within Battlelore, please don't follow down that slippery path. We don't want another miniature collection game for what started out as a wargame system with some rpg/campaign elements hinted in the rule book.

Sincerely yours,

A devout customer

A bit harsh, but I share your point of view about the need to bring more content in future releseas, even if this come. from a certain point of view a "hardcore fan" who shamelessy bought every expansion till now.

Until now, I don't think that expansions were sub-par; my concerns were and are about the distribution choice, which diluted the contents in too much releases, but this is a fact well know by every fan. "Creatures" for me could be the turning point, because the re-release of the GiantElemental couple with the "Premium content" Hydra inserted is pushing a little bit that marketable line for me: I mean, the package could be selled with a clear "late-comer" policy in mind, including a second spider to go with that blue banner for the ones who want to beef up their forces, instead trying the "appetizer move" to include me in the prospective buyer list. Gently, with that price tag, I decline. I hope this sound, as I think, as positive criticism: I'm teling FFG my preferences as a customer, and that could be precious for the conception of future releases - still, I may be proven wrong if selling of Creatures will reflect that "early-adopters" of the game think the premium Hydra is enough to buy the entire expansion with the extra "old" minis.

The hystory of the game obviously has a large part in these phaenomena, as you too notice thinking about the plausible derivative nature these last expansion in the production line, both from the difficulties DOW encountered with the "blister modular distribution" planned at first and for the sheer fact that I imagine DOW marketing never thought about Battlelore as a new wargame system a-la Warhammer, but as a strong boardgame with great potential in cult-following, and wasn't at all prepared by the production difficulties implied by the success of the game. Mind you, I think also that DOW did a great job, and his was "good", not "evil" marketing, because it managed to produce an healthy community, alive even after years of subsequent difficulties.

To me it seems that FFG is already lining, for its traditions, to the hardcore, ameritrasher gamer: we've seen already some old rules rewritten, updated and so on, something who could seriously scare away the casual gamer, while one of the main worries of DOW to me seemed to grant always a smooth learning curve to the families' audience (as shown by the tutorial nature of the Adventure Booklet in the base game; I could have survived even with more complexity sooner).

Let's see if this will reflect in a beefier future!

affro said:

I was harsh for two reasons. Because I have frustration built up many years now and mainly because I LOVE this game. I hate to see it crash and burn again.

affro said:

You are entitled to your opinion ofcourse but IMHO I think that every single "race" expansion had too little to offer.

Call to arms added rules and gameplay.

100 Years war added rules and gameplay along with needed units.

Epic added rules and gameplay.

Heroes added rules and gameplay.

On the borderline of useful content lies Skottish Wars. But even here it was evident that DoW wanted to milk money. I mean come on, HUMAN race's best unit Mounted Knights in a DWARVEN expansion?!?

All other expansions just offered more units.

All Goblins could have been in the same package.

All Dwarves could have been in the same package.

Troll and Country shouldn't have seen the light of day. EVER.

affro said:

My writing style may look like I'm just a bitter buyer but I assure you {and everyone here reading this} that BattleLore really is my No1 game. That's actually the reason why I'm so angry and frustrated. I don't believe that fans of a certain game system or game designer should look the other way every time he makes a mistake so that they can prove that they are fans. I want to see BattleLore reach its true potential but all these expansions with diluted content do anything but that.

affro said:

DoW did nothing IMHO. If the game system wasn't great all by itself and if you count all the empty promises by DoW you can see why it has a healthy community and a lot of followers even after all those years. I firmly believe that BL would be one of the best game out there if DoW didn't try to milk their customers. I really don't want to feel the same old bitter feeling from FFG too...

affro said:

I sincerely hope that Dragons and Creatures are the last of this DoW style type of expansions and the next ones are more FFG-like. Big fat boxes with lot of content. Let me repeat it again: I don't mind AT ALL to pay 100$ for a BattleLore expansion if it has the usual FFG treatment. I will NOT pay 30$ for rip-off expansions.

I'll also repeat my maths from my original post. Dragons and Creatures costs 35$x2=70$ and you get 6 minis (2 of them many people have already), a handful of cards and 8 scenarios. Point me to any other FFG 70$ game that has less or even the same components....

affro said:

Greek saying: Hope dies last.

I really hope to see a pure FFG expansion for BL with a pure FFG treatment. I'll not buy Dragons or Creatures until I'm certain that this game has a future not full of pricey 3-month mediocre expansions. Right not I'll wait and see but if the next expansion announced of is the same type I'll seriously consider selling all my BL stuff and be done with it. I'm still waiting for this game after 3 years to come to its full potential that I KNOW its there...

A BattleLore fan that cares...

I bought two copies of Dragons and paid around $23 for each (CSI). And, while I already have Hill Giants and Earth Elementals, I will buy two copies of Creatures when it is released. Yes, it is a little expensive. But, it isn't like expansions for BL are released every month.

Ehm... FragMaster, I'm sorry If I wasn't all too clear about it (I'm not speaking English as my mother language, so I always fear cross-cultural misunderstanting), but, for the most part, I agree with your point of view (even with my "harsh" statement I was referring more to my words than yours). You explained very well what perhaps I didn't managed whan talking about "diluted distribution choices".

My only (really mild) disagreement is about DoW, who, in my opinion, failed only in evaluating some marketing models, borrowing them directly from the big brother Memoir '44 without fully realizing the scope and expectations involved by a fantasy game - by the way I think Memoir offered more gaming content in comparison to BL expansions above all because at first It could avoid the minis galore who distinguish us, the Fantasy geeks, from the more historically oriented, who often live well and healty with more practical blocks and tokens. Troll is the chief example of this: the "Epic Map Formula" seems working well with Memoir, but p*ssed off like Hell us, the BL fandom wanting for more and left with a premade map and a Monster... Not at all challenging, after all that waiting.

In one thing DoW behaved really well (no, not hype generation ( )): community building. The Scenario Editor was really well executed and Richard Borg said that a "Hero Database" was in the work: the latter is more a funny plaything, but the Editor demonstrated respect for the audience and recognition of the "Black Box" nature of Command and Color System; there were really quality adventures there, and even if after the first, enthusiastic wave of fanmade scenario things gone a little quite, The War of The Roses and the Lord of the Rings campaigns were rightly renown; it's a shame FFG doesn't have his own yet, and it's more damaging for them than for us (after all, battleloreadventures IS a good editor). Without that kind of support things stale, and I must admit that sometimes ago, discussions on the boards were more on the creative side of the game than now....

I'm saying this because, even with its faults, not all the doing of DOW is to be thrown off: take the good example, and don't do the mistakes!

"There is always hope, Frodo..." Well, let's hope so!

affro said:

No worries! I didn't find your post offensive. I'm just frustrated with the route BattleLore seems to have taken {again}.

I've decided to wait for the next BL expansion announcement and if the next one is again a "too much money, too low content" expansion then I'm not going to follow the BL series anymore. I have a bit of a collector attitude and I can't just stop "collecting" my BL. and be happy with what I have.

But I don't like being ripped-off also. So the only logical conclusion to calm my O.C.D. is to sell all my BL stuff and relax. Or FFG could create big fat medium sized boxes full of nice BL stuff and I'll gladly continue to buy anything BattleLore they can throw my way.

Or do what I do, sit around making stuff up for it, yes I know I've been quiet but slowly, ever so slowly my next expansion draws closer...

Chris

I agree with the general idea expressed by these posts. Way overpriced based on the content. I too have plenty of cash to buy the expansions but I feel ripped-off by the lack of content. I already have the hill giant and the earth elemental, so now I need to cough up another 30$+ dollars just to get the hydra.

Hear my sarcastic and unenthusiastic cheer

I agree with all of you. What particularly shocked me is the Artifacts deck lack of artwork (as Fragmaster pointed out) in Heroes extension. What a contrast with the rich artwork of the Lore cards for instance. In my (modest) opinion, the visual aspect is a major feature in Battlelore and it would be a big marketing mistake to cut artwork for some "cost optimization" reasons.

Germ said:

I think you forgot the Blue Spider card you also get as well!! <G>

First, let me say that I agree that these expansions are overpriced. I'm poor, so these prices make me have to re-prioritize my purchases. I have every BattleLore THING up to "Heroes". Right now, I just can't afford these expansions, especially when there are other board games out there I play much more often (ones that don't take ~1 hour to set up).

Having said that, and as a guy with both the Hill Giant & the Earth Elemental, aren't the figures in the "Monsters" pack supposed to have different rules? I guess what I'm saying is that the box won't be a total loss for those with the other minis.

Its not just the price... its that Ill buy second Battlelore base game to some of my friends than buy heroes and Dragons.... Ill get more games by doing that..

The price is something that needs to be below 25% of the base game its called "addon" like in starcraft its 50% price of the original, but it feels like EXPANSION (and bug fix;) )... If battlelore could have EXPANSION, it would add complete new race, or all the monsters, or New units for humans (like all the addons that they have for men) AND heroes...

Look at the cost of TIDE of Iron... it has EXPANSIONS... and they add new "army," units, boards, rules...

I think that FFG has good cost/get ratio in all the games EXEPT Battlelore... After heroes, i am not that keen to buy these ADDONS for this price...

ill just order MtG cards (so cheap... sure )