Actually, I tend to agree most artists do these things.

The point that I forgot to put on that list, and that's my bad, is that since artists need to do these things (and, by and large, they do ), we can't and shouldn't use "that's how Japanese people are depicted in Japanese art!" as an argument. Not because "It's offensive" (which frankly I have no idea whether Japanesse people are offended or not by this), but because, as artist, when they chose to communicate in a "foreign language" (so to speak), they still need to concern themselves with how their art communicate what it seeks to communicate to its audience.

2 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Actually, I tend to agree most artists do these things.

The point that I forgot to put on that list, and that's my bad, is that since artists need to do these things (and, by and large, they do ), we can't and shouldn't use "that's how Japanese people are depicted in Japanese art!" as an argument. Not because "It's offensive" (which frankly I have no idea whether Japanesse people are offended or not by this), but because, as artist, when they chose to communicate in a "foreign language" (so to speak), they still need to concern themselves with how their art communicate what it seeks to communicate to its audience.

I'm not sure that ultimately addresses how a western artist should depict someone of Asian descent, or within an Asian culture. I feel using how that culture chooses to depict itself and "translating" it to a western way of communicating is a real way to go about presenting your art. So, using how Japanese people are depicted in Japanese art, is a viable way of producing a piece of art.

1 hour ago, Himoto said:

It's not "want to be". It's what fair skin mean in their artistic language versus what it means in ours. Ot does NOT follow that they want depicted that way by strangers. That's a self-serving leap of faith.

Rather like someone whose name happen to sound rather vulgar in English (or just be hard to pronounce correctly in english) may prefer English speaker to use an alternate pronunciation or nockname rather than constantly being called something vulgar or having their name mangled by anglophones, even while they prefer to be adressed by their proper name in their native language.

26 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Things I have not said, despite the desperate strawmanning of people who really need to learn basic reading comprehension:
-That it's offensive to Japanese people for westerners to depict fair-skinned Japanese people
-That westerners should not draw inspiration from other cultures

Things I have said, that people seem to do their level best to strawman into something completely different
-That western artists should be conscious that they are adressing a primarily western audience who understand art through the perspective of primarily western artistic conventions (eg, language)
-That as such, they should reflect on whether their art communicate what it's supposed to communicate (for example: "this is an asian person") in a way that fits western artistic language.

That's all. So kindly stop putting words in my mouth, and stuff your strawmen where the sun doesn't shine.

What you have essentially said in the first quote is "They depict themselves as "white" in their art, it does not follow that they want US to draw them the same way." You even add "that is a self-serving leap of faith" to further emphasis that we should not be doing this...

Then you come back and claim you haven't said it's offensive for western artists to depict them the way they depict themselves... When the previous line you say doing exactly that is a "self-serving leap of faith."

So what are you saying exactly? And why are you saying it? What is your basic message you want to convey? Do you think Samurai in L5R being depicted as they are in this game is a disservice because the characters look as "they would depict themselves" because "It does not follow they want to be depicted that way by strangers"? OR are you just saying they should be "conscious they are addressing a primarily western audience" (which they are)

Read that second paragraph (of the first post) again. It might help you understand that I'm talking about how people can (and often do ) have different priorities in chosing how they prefer to be represented in different languages (including artistic languages) ; and that one should not make assumption based on how a person present themselves in one language about how they wish to be presented in another.

Offense is not the crux of the argument, nor even an important part of it. The fact that you cannot draw conclusions about how someone wish to be represented in language XYZ on the basis of how they wish to be represented in language ABC *is*.

For example, I prefer people to use my full actual name in my native French ; not nicknames. In reverse, I tend to prefer nicknames to my actual name in English, because my name is (relatively) hard to pronounce and sounds weird in english, and asking people to use it can often lead to misunderstandings or mangling. It's not offensive ; but it leads to unclear communication and misunderstandings. That said, if you were to use those nicknames in French , it would also lead to unclear communications and misunderstandings ; because few (or no) french speakers associate the nickname with me.

In other words, you shouldn't make assumptions about what name to use for me in French based on what name you use for me in English.

6 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Read that second paragraph (of the first post) again. It might help you understand that I'm talking about how people can (and often do ) have different priorities in chosing how they prefer to be represented in different languages (including artistic languages) ; and that one should not make assumption based on how a person present themselves in one language about how they wish to be presented in another.

Offense is not the crux of the argument, nor even an important part of it. The fact that you cannot draw conclusions about how someone wish to be represented in language XYZ on the basis of how they wish to be represented in language ABC *is*.

For example, I prefer people to use my full actual name in my native French ; not nicknames. In reverse, I tend to prefer nicknames to my actual name in English, because my name is (relatively) hard to pronounce and sounds weird in english, and asking people to use it can often lead to misunderstandings or mangling. It's not offensive ; but it leads to unclear communication and misunderstandings. That said, if you were to use those nicknames in French , it would also lead to unclear communications and misunderstandings ; because few (or no) french speakers associate the nickname with me.

In other words, you shouldn't make assumptions about what name to use for me in French based on what name you use for me in English.

Then how do I, as a western artist, depict someone of that culture if I can not look at how they depict themselves?

45 minutes ago, shosuko said:

What you have essentially said in the first quote is "They depict themselves as "white" in their art, it does not follow that they want US to draw them the same way." You even add "that is a self-serving leap of faith" to further emphasis that we should not be doing this...

Then you come back and claim you haven't said it's offensive for western artists to depict them the way they depict themselves... When the previous line you say doing exactly that is a "self-serving leap of faith."

So what are you saying exactly? And why are you saying it? What is your basic message you want to convey? Do you think Samurai in L5R being depicted as they are in this game is a disservice because the characters look as "they would depict themselves" because "It does not follow they want to be depicted that way by strangers"? OR are you just saying they should be "conscious they are addressing a primarily western audience" (which they are)

The two of them aren't really taking a firm position because a firm position can be argued with. There's just a lot of vague statements about should, which get walked back or hit with "do you think i dont know that DUH" when they're contradicted or shown to be an inaccurate perception.

8 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Then how do I, as a western artist, depict someone of that culture if I can not look at how they depict themselves?

However you want that doesn't move into caricature. You're always going to find someone unhappy with your depictions, eventually to the point that people will say you shouldn't even do so because you're a western artist.

I lived in Japan for a few years, about 25 years ago now, but I always admired their attitude towards other cultures. If it's good, take it. Several of my friends there used to complain about American sushi. They didn't care that we were making it - it's great, why wouldn't we? They cared that we weren't inventive enough with it. We made California sushi, and then stopped. We put it on a pedestal, and treated it as something to leave as it is. Compare that to the stuff we do with other Asian foods, like Korean and Vietnamese - our banh mi's carry the original tradition, but are clearly different, and they're good. Anyway, they wanted us to do the same with sushi. If we screw it up, big deal, but if we do something great, they could steal it right back.

4 minutes ago, agarrett said:

I lived in Japan for a few years, about 25 years ago now, but I always admired their attitude towards other cultures. If it's good, take it. Several of my friends there used to complain about American sushi. They didn't care that we were making it - it's great, why wouldn't we? They cared that we weren't inventive enough with it. We made California sushi, and then stopped. We put it on a pedestal, and treated it as something to leave as it is. Compare that to the stuff we do with other Asian foods, like Korean and Vietnamese - our banh mi's carry the original tradition, but are clearly different, and they're good. Anyway, they wanted us to do the same with sushi. If we screw it up, big deal, but if we do something great, they could steal it right back.

This makes me glad I've started to experiment with my "southern" style sushi.

2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

This makes me glad I've started to experiment with my "southern" style sushi.

Sothern style sushi?

please explain,

2 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Sothern style sushi?

please explain,

Barbeque. I've basically just barbequed some chicken, shredded it, marinated it in some BBQ sauce, and used that as my filling for a sushi roll.

I'm sure that probably isn't technically sushi at that point, but I just kind of call it that for myself. I've only done it a few times mostly as I'm learning to make the sushi rice right, and since I like bbq chicken. I'm right now planning on trying different "southern" fillings.

Just now, RandomJC said:

Barbeque. I've basically just barbequed some chicken, shredded it, marinated it in some BBQ sauce, and used that as my filling for a sushi roll.

I'm sure that probably isn't technically sushi at that point, but I just kind of call it that for myself. I've only done it a few times mostly as I'm learning to make the sushi rice right, and since I like bbq chicken. I'm right now planning on trying different "southern" fillings.

That sounds.....fantastic

Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

That sounds.....fantastic

It came out real good when I actually made the sushi rice right.

Still trying to make Onigiri right though.

Quote

The two of them aren't really taking a firm position because a firm position can be argued with.

No ; we're taking nuanced position because real life is complicated and one-size-fits-all answers tend to be pretty terrible answers .

Quote

Then how do I, as a western artist, depict someone of that culture if I can not look at how they depict themselves?

You can look at how they depict themselves ; and you then depict them however you think best, depending on who your audience is, etc.
You then look at the criticism, consider it, and decide whether you a)should do your next work differently, or b)disagree with the criticism and intend to stick to your style.

You DON'T tell people criticizing you "Since it's the way they depict themselves in their own art, you're not allowed to criticize me for depicting them that way in a completely different art style".

4 minutes ago, Himoto said:

No ; we're taking nuanced position because real life is complicated and one-size-fits-all answers tend to be pretty terrible answers .

This is a dodge, its a dodge because the two of you have been given counterexamples for every complaint you've brought forward, then proceeded to shift the goal posts on your position. "Its complicated" isn't an effective cover for that.

I have not once shifted the goal posts of my particular argument.

I came into this particular part of the thread (the one regarding the artistic representation of Asian characters in L5R) because someone argued that (roughly paraphrased) "If you interpret art by a Japanese person a certain way, you should interpret art by a western person the same way"; and, more generally, because people have been arguing that the use of fair skin is japanese art automatically prevent any criticism of the use of fair skin for Japanese people in western art.

I disagreed with that particular argument then, and I still do. That was my initial point, and it still is my point.

What you call "shifting the goalposts", I call "debunking strawmen". You, and others, have been putting one argument after another in my mouth that I wasn't making because they were the points you wanted to argue against. That's what we call, in somewhat polite terms, your bloody problem . I'm not here to argue about the points you wish to make. I'm here to defend the stance I wish to defend, which is what I stated above, and will restate below:

"You don't get to cry "That's how it's done in Japanese art!" to deflect criticism of what's clearly not Japanese art. "

On the broader picture of Asian representation in L5R, I think it's perfectly legitimate for artists to use the skin tone they think work best (depending on what they want to convey). And I think it's also perfectly legitimate for fans to point out that there may be an issue with the sheer number of characters who have a fair complexion. Personally, I'm rather neutral on the criticism itself ; I think it's a point worth considering, but I'm not convinced it's a point FFG needs to act on.

@Himoto - I think the problem here, why people think you are shifting goalposts, and why you think they are giving straw mans is that YOU are not offended by this. You are simply concerned someone MIGHT be offended by it...

Really bro - unless you have a problem with it, it's tough for you to argue someone else does. You keep coming back saying "I didn't say XXX" or some such, but that is exactly the problem - apparently you aren't saying anything. You are only postulating what another person might say.

So people have difficulty pronouncing your real name - you prefer they use your nick name instead of mispronouncing your real name. If I learned how to pronounce your name the way French people would - you probably wouldn't mind me using the French version and the entire argument vanishes.

The fact that Samurai are depicted in L5R the way Japanese would depict them, and we can verify this by looking at Japanese produced artwork and American produced artwork and see there is no discernible difference... I don't see any reason for you to even be arguing.

23 minutes ago, Himoto said:

I have not once shifted the goal posts of my particular argument.

I came into this particular part of the thread (the one regarding the artistic representation of Asian characters in L5R) because someone argued that (roughly paraphrased) "If you interpret art by a Japanese person a certain way, you should interpret art by a western person the same way"; and, more generally, because people have been arguing that the use of fair skin is japanese art automatically prevent any criticism of the use of fair skin for Japanese people in western art.

I disagreed with that particular argument then, and I still do. That was my initial point, and it still is my point.

What you call "shifting the goalposts", I call "debunking strawmen". You, and others, have been putting one argument after another in my mouth that I wasn't making because they were the points you wanted to argue against. That's what we call, in somewhat polite terms, your bloody problem . I'm not here to argue about the points you wish to make. I'm here to defend the stance I wish to defend, which is what I stated above, and will restate below:

"You don't get to cry "That's how it's done in Japanese art!" to deflect criticism of what's clearly not Japanese art. "

On the broader picture of Asian representation in L5R, I think it's perfectly legitimate for artists to use the skin tone they think work best (depending on what they want to convey). And I think it's also perfectly legitimate for fans to point out that there may be an issue with the sheer number of characters who have a fair complexion. Personally, I'm rather neutral on the criticism itself ; I think it's a point worth considering, but I'm not convinced it's a point FFG needs to act on.

I don't believe I've been trying to argue points you haven't been trying to argue. I just don't believe your blanket criticism of using how a culture depicts itself to create your own work is right. And I'm furthered in this belief because you haven't answered my question several times.

I've answered several of your question, first. If there's a specific one you want me to address, feel free to point so.

Second, as I pointed out multiple time, my argument isn't against using how the culture depict themselves as a basis for your own art .
It's against using "that's how they depict themselves!" as a shield to deflect criticism .

I'm not arguing against an artistic practice, I'm arguing against an argumentative practice.

You can base your own art in how a people depict themselves, absolutely, yes. But when people point out that this may be problematic, you shouldn't act like this voids criticism of how you're representing that people.

Shosuko...except "It might be offensive" is not the point I'm trying to make ; it's one particular possibility I raised in one particular post; the actual point of that post was "assumptions that something hold true across multiple languages are a terrible idea", which was a point I raised to support the core idea I've been defending from the start, namely that "It's how they portray themselves therefore it's automatically a good portrayal" is a terrible argument.

7 hours ago, Himoto said:

No ; we're taking nuanced position because real life is complicated and one-size-fits-all answers tend to be pretty terrible answers .

Isn't this EXACTLY why we should just assume artist are not being idiots with their art and let them express themselves how ever they choose? Instead of hamstringing them with a laundry list of PC talking points they must address?

1 hour ago, El_Ganso said:

Isn't this EXACTLY why we should just assume artist are not being idiots with their art and let then express themselves how ever they choose? Instead of hamstringing them with a laundry list of PC talking points they must address?

You don't understand, Hotaru's skin is not yellow enough therefore all of us stupid westeners will think she is white! xD

7 hours ago, Himoto said:

I've answered several of your question, first. If there's a specific one you want me to address, feel free to point so.

Second, as I pointed out multiple time, my argument isn't against using how the culture depict themselves as a basis for your own art .
It's against using "that's how they depict themselves!" as a shield to deflect criticism .

I'm not arguing against an artistic practice, I'm arguing against an argumentative practice.

You can base your own art in how a people depict themselves, absolutely, yes. But when people point out that this may be problematic, you shouldn't act like this voids criticism of how you're representing that people.

Your whole criticism boils down to "it's problematic". Maybe you care to explain how is it problematic? Because asian people don't have any problem with being depicted with fair skin tone, which yes, completly voids your argument.

If you could just respond straight up what is your problem with the art, instead of building layers upon layers of deflection in your posts it would be easier to communicate. And if your problem is "japanese people don't want to be represented that way" then I assure you that yes indeed they do, and saying that seems to be a pretty good way to repeal that criticism.

edit: If on the other hand you don't have any problem with it than I don't know what we are even talking about.

25 minutes ago, BordOne said:

You don't understand, Hotaru's skin is not yellow enough therefore all of us stupid westeners will think she is white! xD

She's blond. She doesn't look in the slightest Japanese. And I don't think myself, or anyone else, a stupid westerner if they wonder what's up with that.

Actually, what is up with that? Is it whitewashing? Did she try and dye her hair white but took the wrong bottle home from the grocery store? Did one of her ancestors have some sexy time with Merenae?

13 minutes ago, Doji Namika said:

She's blond. She doesn't look in the slightest Japanese. And I don't think myself, or anyone else, a stupid westerner if they wonder what's up with that.

Actually, what is up with that? Is it whitewashing? Did she try and dye her hair white but took the wrong bottle home from the grocery store? Did one of her ancestors have some sexy time with Merenae?

I suspect you have an artificially narrow view of the features and hair colors of asian people, especially in a setting where hair dye is a thing.

48 minutes ago, Doji Namika said:

She's blond. She doesn't look in the slightest Japanese. And I don't think myself, or anyone else, a stupid westerner if they wonder what's up with that.

Actually, what is up with that? Is it whitewashing? Did she try and dye her hair white but took the wrong bottle home from the grocery store? Did one of her ancestors have some sexy time with Merenae?

She has white hair. I tought the Crane are supposed to have white hair. It being slightly more yellow in some places is called "shading".

Also don't know any westeners in history wearing this type of clothing while fighting with this type of weaponary.

1 hour ago, Doji Namika said:

She's blond. She doesn't look in the slightest Japanese. And I don't think myself, or anyone else, a stupid westerner if they wonder what's up with that.

Actually, what is up with that? Is it whitewashing? Did she try and dye her hair white but took the wrong bottle home from the grocery store? Did one of her ancestors have some sexy time with Merenae?

20 hours ago, shosuko said:

Here is another one for you - Of these characters only the blonde on the right is NOT japanese - he is french.

The blonde on the left there is Japanese.

I would understand the complaint of whitewashing IF there were Japanese people who were speaking against this. I think - without any actual "offended party" it's just virtue signaling, moral posturing, and generally being over-sensitive. In USA we have some serious issues with words that can be said by certain people, but not by other people, and the only difference is the race of who said what, not the words being said. Some people want to extend it to fashion, music, hair styles, ect. It's a kind of double standard we live with here. In Japan's society they don't treat these issues the same. They would probably be charged with hate crimes for how they deal with it, but it works for them. They indulge in caricatures and generally don't have many "off limits" subjects. Just last year the USA audience chastised a jpop group for dressing like Nazis for a photo shoot... thing is - Japan doesn't have the same stigma about Nazis, so to them it was okay.