Fix me brain

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Interceptors in terms of stress mechanics - you're simply required to take Captain Yorr rather than an OGP as your palp-carrier/escort shuttle. He likes taking stress.

4 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

You say meta changes. Sure. But not until a new element is introduced. It doesn't change on its own. If FFG decided that starting tomorrow no new XWM expansions will be produced, the meta would stay as it is forever, as fixed games don't have meta. Or are you still waiting for Monopoly to overcome the Boardwalk/Park Place meta?

So, a new element that, either directly or indirectly, changes the meta in a direction where the Interceptors are in a good place again... Something that comes and improves their chances of success or hinders their predators. What would you call that? An Interceptor fix, maybe?

So yes, you're right, it's all a matter of using the brain.

Actually, the whole point of the post was to encourage players like you to go change the meta. I know this sounds silly, but the people on this forum are the tourney players and meta makers. To be honest, I would love an Interceptor fix. I just think that it doesn't have to have one.

6 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Wow, lots of personal attacks on this guy.

I know. It's actually kind of funny. I think the change your brain phrase set everyone off, and now this thread is just meaningless. Oh well.

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'd be happy if they just started spelling wookiee correctly.

Yes! I'd also like it if there was a better wookiee avatar available from the Asmodee forum. I mean, the one I've got is fine, but I wish they'd both put the X-Wing avatars back and add some Destiny ones so my avatar could be this:

or at least give us our signatures back so I could put it there...

50 minutes ago, Psalm 112 said:

I know. It's actually kind of funny. I think the change your brain phrase set everyone off, and now this thread is just meaningless. Oh well.

That's ok! I still agree with you about the interceptors. They're still good, seeing that before Palp got nerfed, Soontir was maybe the second best option for an ace that the Empire had (besides Vader, of course!).

Plus, I'm pretty sure my brain would benefit from a free title that fixed it so it wasn't making me post pictures of angry wookiees all over Asmodee's forum late at night.

Oh well. Until then.

TAKE THIS, ASMODEE! FEEL THE WRATH OF MY BOWCASTER!!!

7 hours ago, Rakky Wistol said:

Your brief history fails to mention that no Interceptor has ever won worlds. I don't think there was one ever even at the final table. Early in the game there was a lot of noise about Fel and how powerful he is... he has what might be THE BEST pilot ability in the game and that's what keeps him around, not his ship. Turr was a great wingmate and many of us even preferred him at the time but he quickly fell out of favor. Jax was a later addition and just as annoying but not as powerful. Alphas were hot for about a month. Because you can actually name a few very annoying and powerful pilots does not mean that the INTERCEPTOR not the PILOT is "good enough". It has about 3 times as many pilots as the EWING but no one says "the EWING is good" just because Corran wins worlds.

Fel is good. Jax is good. The interceptor itself is not. Even those two pilots can no longer compete on that frame. Those pilots can't compete in the META. The frame almost never could.

They did win some major events though, including several regionals and a Nationals/North American Championship (can't remember which it was at GenCon that year). Lots of ships haven't won worlds - I think that's a pretty lofty bar to set to see if a ship is competitive.

9 hours ago, GringoFett said:

I still run a triple Interceptor list.

Soontir

Jax

Lorrir

I usually get more millage out of Lorrir than Soontir because people avoid him.

Granted I dont play in tournaments so take that into account. I have done well against most of the current meta lists ran at our FLGS.

Now I have a style of play that might account for some of that, in that I do not become target focused. I fly the ships and shoot what ever happens to get in my arc. Seems to work well most of the time. Fly it like a real fighter.

You, sir, are my hero. I used to run Soontir, Lorrir, Opportunist Saber, and Backstabber. So fun, but I couldn't hack it in the Fat Han meta. That you still run Lorrir is...wow. so cool!

People who fly with Lorrir deserve respect *hat tip*

I think its time for me to fly Lorrir for the first time. Not for wins, but for HONOR!

1 hour ago, DarthCognis said:

I think its time for me to fly Lorrir for the first time. Not for wins, but for HONOR!

Lorrir, Echo, Zeta Ace, and an academy is hilarious if you want to see your opponent question your barrel roll template choice.

3 hours ago, DarthCognis said:

I think its time for me to fly Lorrir for the first time. Not for wins, but for HONOR!

Lorrir was a sour grape in the X-wing novels, and given how bad his pilot ability was, he should really just have salty flavour text:

Lorrir was only a lieutenant, but in the 181st, that was equivalent to a Major in any other fighter group...

I will may be use Kir Kanos one day ! Oh why not play with : Lorrir + Kir Kanos + Tetran Cowall !

Need to see what they can do !

I really like TIE Interceptor - my most favourite missions in TIE Fighter were "in" this fighter, but I really would support a fix.

Something which doesn't support high PS pilots or at least force them to choose from the Royal Guard and something new.

The model is great, the dial very good and I really like my 4 Interceptor builds (usually Turr, Jax, Lorrir & Alpha), but it is often incredible, incredible struggle.

I had games with almost perfect flying - I do mean perfect - with fire concentration, forced collisions exploited by other TIEs etc all but ruined by even avarage rolls, not bad but avarage.

I am not complaining... much... but TIE Striker, TIE Fo and TIE Adv. Prototype often feel cheaper and better.

I feel like the iconic fighter has lost its own niche except some aces. Giving it 1-2 titles rewarding a specific style of flying with something would be very good - if it could somehow help Lorrir or maybe even (I know, I know) Fel's Wrath it would really change the game for the better.

It doesn't have to be easy. Flying the TIE shouldn't be too easy, but let's reward flying it in a specific, its own, way.

To clarify, Soontir and Carnor don't need a fix. I would totally agree with something like LWF that helps all ties, but maybe this time as a title for all low PS ties.

4 hours ago, Endobai said:

I feel like the iconic fighter has lost its own niche except some aces. Giving it 1-2 titles rewarding a specific style of flying with something would be very good - if it could somehow help Lorrir or maybe even (I know, I know) Fel's Wrath it would really change the game for the better.

It doesn't have to be easy. Flying the TIE shouldn't be too easy, but let's reward flying it in a specific, its own, way.

Sounds like a request for Squadron mechanics to me

19 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

You say meta changes. Sure. But not until a new element is introduced. It doesn't change on its own. If FFG decided that starting tomorrow no new XWM expansions will be produced, the meta would stay as it is forever, as fixed games don't have meta. Or are you still waiting for Monopoly to overcome the Boardwalk/Park Place meta?

So, a new element that, either directly or indirectly, changes the meta in a direction where the Interceptors are in a good place again... Something that comes and improves their chances of success or hinders their predators. What would you call that? An Interceptor fix, maybe?

So yes, you're right, it's all a matter of using the brain.

This isn't necessarily true. All of the pieces were in place for dengaroo as soon as the jumpmaster released, but it took quite a while for someone to actually come up with it. Similarly, the pieces for paratanni existed as soon as wave 9 released, but again, it took quite a while for someone to actually put the squad together and realize how ridiculously good it was.

Both of those lists came out into existing metas without new cards being introduced

30 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

This isn't necessarily true. All of the pieces were in place for dengaroo as soon as the jumpmaster released, but it took quite a while for someone to actually come up with it. Similarly, the pieces for paratanni existed as soon as wave 9 released, but again, it took quite a while for someone to actually put the squad together and realize how ridiculously good it was.

Both of those lists came out into existing metas without new cards being introduced

Yes, I agree there was some stumbling out of the gate for the galaxy ruling Scum faction, but heck, when you can dominate with three PS 2 torpedo boats, why experiment.

However, where your argument breaks down is, you underestimate the abilities and the overarching tenacity in which Interceptor lovers try every stinking card and combination that comes out in every way possible to assist even a little, their beloved glass-cannons. Hell, we even try Rebel and Scum Only cards to see the "what ifs." Besides, we're not a bunch of thieving criminals, quite the opposite, in comparison we're more akin to surgeons for crying out loud.

11 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes, I agree there was some stumbling out of the gate for the galaxy ruling Scum faction, but heck, when you can dominate with three PS 2 torpedo boats, why experiment.

However, where your argument breaks down is, you underestimate the abilities and the overarching tenacity in which Interceptor lovers try every stinking card and combination that comes out in every way possible to assist even a little, their beloved glass-cannons. Hell, we even try Rebel and Scum Only cards to see the "what ifs." Besides, we're not a bunch of thieving criminals, quite the opposite, in comparison we're more akin to surgeons for crying out loud.

Just because SOMEONE found a soultion doesnt mean it's well known. See discussions above about Lt Lorrir, and my own Alpha Squadron Spam.

46 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes, I agree there was some stumbling out of the gate for the galaxy ruling Scum faction, but heck, when you can dominate with three PS 2 torpedo boats, why experiment.

However, where your argument breaks down is, you underestimate the abilities and the overarching tenacity in which Interceptor lovers try every stinking card and combination that comes out in every way possible to assist even a little, their beloved glass-cannons. Hell, we even try Rebel and Scum Only cards to see the "what ifs." Besides, we're not a bunch of thieving criminals, quite the opposite, in comparison we're more akin to surgeons for crying out loud.

I wasn't even necessarily saying some secret sauce for interceptors would be found. Just addressing that the meta doesn't just stay stagnant without new releases.

On 6/2/2017 at 8:42 AM, Psalm 112 said:

I'm american bro.

Not really the thrust of this thread or my reply, and despite the probable thread derail this may cause...I feel compelled to state that being an American and being an English speaker (proficient or otherwise) are distinct qualities. Many folks are one while not being the other.

...And back to X-Wing...

I agree with the main point - metas change, so players must adapt. You gave a history of the overall meta that matches what I've heard (I only started a few waves back). However, didn't the meta change up in the ways you described IN RESPONSE TO ongoing player feedback? I concur that it is best for players to get creative and develop counters rather than simply complain, but the comments and discussion of "issues" inform product development (at the very least by framing the mindsets of playtesters) and that is also important.

On 6/3/2017 at 6:52 PM, VanderLegion said:

This isn't necessarily true. All of the pieces were in place for dengaroo as soon as the jumpmaster released, but it took quite a while for someone to actually come up with it. Similarly, the pieces for paratanni existed as soon as wave 9 released, but again, it took quite a while for someone to actually put the squad together and realize how ridiculously good it was.

Both of those lists came out into existing metas without new cards being introduced

The fact that it took a while doesn't mean new cards (or ships) weren't introduced. In fact, you said yourselves they were. Nothing happens instantly, but the things eventually go where the existing elements lead them. It's similar to entropy, really: over time, the meta just reaches the point where its components are used the most effectively, every possible strategic move is done and the game is "solved". To reset the meta, you need to introduce new elements. Again, if no new components were released, the current meta (or the final recombinations of it in, say, a year from now? Assuming there are more that didn't happen yet) would stay the same forever. We never see a truly stagnating meta because new things are released twice per year or more.

6 minutes ago, Kumagoro said:

The fact that it took a while doesn't mean new cards (or ships) weren't introduced. In fact, you said yourselves they were. Nothing happens instantly, but the things eventually go where the existing elements lead them. It's similar to entropy, really: over time, the meta just reaches the point where its components are used the most effectively, every possible strategic move is done and the game is "solved". To reset the meta, you need to introduce new elements. Again, if no new components were released, the current meta (or the final recombinations of it in, say, a year from now? Assuming there are more that didn't happen yet) would stay the same forever. We never see a truly stagnating meta because new things are released twice per year or more.

...Where did I say new cards were introduced? From what I recall, it took a couple months after wave 8 before dengaroo showed up, with no releases in between. Paratanni was flyable from the release of wave 9, but didn't appear (that I recall, definitely didn't get big at least) until after worlds.

16 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

...Where did I say new cards were introduced? From what I recall, it took a couple months after wave 8 before dengaroo showed up, with no releases in between. Paratanni was flyable from the release of wave 9, but didn't appear (that I recall, definitely didn't get big at least) until after worlds.

It seems we're not understanding each other here. You talk about Attanni and Dengar. Aren't those new cards introduced into the meta that existed BEFORE Attanni and Dengar were printed? So the Attanni/Dengaroo meta came to be, AFTER A WHILE, because those cards were introduced in a game that previously didn't have those. Again, for the last time: if these were the very last cards ever printed, then give it a month, give it six months, give it a year at most, all possible combinations would be exhausted, the best squads would be established, and that would be it, the end of all meta changes, because there wouldn't be any strategic reason to change further.

People seem to think the meta is the sum of the player base's willpower and dreams or something. Whereas it's just brought into existence by the components of the game, by rules and stats. It's just math, really. It's like they give us a math problem, or an encrypted code, and after a while it's solved. At that point, they'll either gives us new factors to re-open the problem, or it'll remain solved.

That's the competitive way, which just means try and make the most effective use of the tools you're given. Casual doesn't have a meta, because in casual you don't play with that goal in mind, you just play to do fun and outrageous things, or things you find cool and whatnot. This also incidentally brings us to another consideration: in Magic: The Gathering, there are cards expressly made for the competitive environments and cards made for casual play. In X-Wing, possibly because the available components are fewer, it seems like we demand for every ship and every card to be competitive. Why couldn't there be competitive ships and casual ships, instead? (Provided the competitive ships are more than 4 or 5 at any given time).

14 minutes ago, Kumagoro said:

It seems we're not understanding each other here. You talk about Attanni and Dengar. Aren't those new cards introduced into the meta that existed BEFORE Attanni and Dengar were printed? So the Attanni/Dengaroo meta came to be, AFTER A WHILE, because those cards were introduced in a game that previously didn't have those. Again, for the last time: if these were the very last cards ever printed, then give it a month, give it six months, give it a year at most, all possible combinations would be exhausted, the best squads would be established, and that would be it, the end of all meta changes, because there wouldn't be any strategic reason to change further.

Attanni and Dengar were introduced in wave 8. But Deadeye uboats were overhwelmingly the most common scum list at the time. Dengaroo debuted later into the existing uboat/aces/crackswarm meta. No new cards released in between, but the meta still changed.

Quote

People seem to think the meta is the sum of the player base's willpower and dreams or something. Whereas it's just brought into existence by the components of the game, by rules and stats. It's just math, really. It's like they give us a math problem, or an encrypted code, and after a while it's solved. At that point, they'll either gives us new factors to re-open the problem, or it'll remain solved.

That's the competitive way, which just means try and make the most effective use of the tools you're given. Casual doesn't have a meta, because in casual you don't play with that goal in mind, you just play to do fun and outrageous things, or things you find cool and whatnot. This also incidentally brings us to another consideration: in Magic: The Gathering, there are cards expressly made for the competitive environments and cards made for casual play. In X-Wing, possibly because the available components are fewer, it seems like we demand for every ship and every card to be competitive. Why couldn't there be competitive ships and casual ships, instead? (Provided the competitive ships are more than 4 or 5 at any given time).

Even if they never printed another card, the meta would still shift unless someone found 1 squad that could beat literally everything else. Look at the last year. Dengaroo won worlds, and was overwhelmingly the most popular list, then even before the nerf fell out of favor and was replaced by paratanni. Nothing had changed, no cards had been introduced, no nerfs had happened yet, but a new list took over. Even without discovering new lists, the meta will evolve over time. If one list becomes dominant, others will become more common that are designed to beat the dominant one. As that happens, the dominant list falls out of favor and something else takes it's place, and so it continues. A lot of people were expecting defenders to win worlds last year because x7 was SO good, but everyone just built to kill defenders instead.

Hell, look at Dengar Tel winning worlds this year. That list came out of nowhere, smashed all the competition to win, and now is all over the place.

One thing I struggle with is how much weight to put on the current "state of the game". As people have stated the meta of the game changes after every release and old upgrades that seemed to have no use suddenly become the must have add on.

I am also always influenced by my experience playing historical games. One thing that I think X-Wing misses out on is the 3d aspect of movement. Historically aircraft added turrets to protect themselves from "arc dodgers" so the fighters countered with approaching from above or below the angle of the turret. Warfare is always an interplay of offense and defensive countering. Auto Thrusters helped out against turrets and made the Interceptors viable again. I think however what is needed is a more consistent means of adding damage to their attack. Maybe an add on that gives them a missile slot. I tend to be able to dodge attacks at range three but in order to deal a knock out blow you have to close to range 1 and then you still are only dealing 4 dice. If you can bump up the damage so that you can strip the shields off a target at long range then close in to wax them with 4 dice I think it makes the Interceptors a more potent viable platform.