Like in the title the question i have is. When does palp's die change happen?

It says "After rolling, you must change 1 of its dice results to the named result." Does this mean before the dice modification step or during that step since the dice mod step comes after the dice roll step? I've looked at c3-po but he specifically says " If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result." Which isn't the same as 'After rolling'. Are there any other upgrades that have the "after rolling.." wording that i have simply skipped over for reference?

It's immediately after rolling now. Put the result aside as it cannot be modified again by either player's modification step.

14 minutes ago, Parravon said:

It's immediately after rolling now. Put the result aside as it cannot be modified again by either player's modification step.

Reference/rule i can look at? I'm just having a hard time with it on either side.

1 hour ago, Oberron said:

Reference/rule i can look at? I'm just having a hard time with it on either side.

The new Palpatine says the change happens "after rolling". Except for the word "immediately", that's equivalent wording to Heavy Laser Cannon, which also demotes crits to hits before the normal modification step. Plus, the FAQ says the word "immediately" is only an emphasizer -- an effect's timing is the same whether it uses that word or not.

Quarrel is correct. This is not a modification you choose to do or not, so it is not 'activated' during your modification step. Palp's timing is exactly that of Heavy Laser Cannon, with the exception that it is only conditionally there. It is not a mod you play; it is an effect awaiting to do it's thing.

In terms of wording, the most useful notation, I think, is that most modification affects are defined by 'when attacking/defending', while Palpatine's effect, like HLC, is 'after rolling'. I think we all know when C-3PO triggers, and he has the same timing window as Palp's effect. Lightweight Frame is another reasonable comparison.

Alright got it now. Thanks

On Friday, June 02, 2017 at 3:39 AM, InquisitorM said:

Quarrel is correct. This is not a modification you choose to do or not, so it is not 'activated' during your modification step. Palp's timing is exactly that of Heavy Laser Cannon, with the exception that it is only conditionally there. It is not a mod you play; it is an effect awaiting to do it's thing.

In terms of wording, the most useful notation, I think, is that most modification affects are defined by 'when attacking/defending', while Palpatine's effect, like HLC, is 'after rolling'. I think we all know when C-3PO triggers, and he has the same timing window as Palp's effect. Lightweight Frame is another reasonable comparison.

Just a quick addendum here since Lightweight Frame was mentioned. That's the one upgrade that has an odd interaction with Palp. The wording of LF is a bit unnecessarily clunky the majority of the time but makes a potentially big difference with Palp. Normally with LF you can just roll the additional die along with the normal ones. Rolling out 2 and then 1 more as a separate action doesn't change anything. UNLESS, you called Palpatine for your evade dice.

Then the sequence becomes: 1. Roll normal agility 2. Change 1 with Palp 4. Roll additional LF die.

You can't Palp the LF die because it comes after the window for Palp. This is a small distinction but it does have a non-zero impact on the odds making them slightly worse for the defender, so not respecting the timing correctly would technically be cheating in this case, although I would likely assume an honest mistake over malice if someone did this.

Palp is the only situation I'm aware of where tha LF timing of the additional die becomes important but there may be others so keep it in mind.

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

Just a quick addendum here since Lightweight Frame was mentioned. That's the one upgrade that has an odd interaction with Palp. The wording of LF is a bit unnecessarily clunky the majority of the time but makes a potentially big difference with Palp. Normally with LF you can just roll the additional die along with the normal ones. Rolling out 2 and then 1 more as a separate action doesn't change anything. UNLESS, you called Palpatine for your evade dice.

Then the sequence becomes: 1. Roll normal agility 2. Change 1 with Palp 4. Roll additional LF die.

You can't Palp the LF die because it comes after the window for Palp. This is a small distinction but it does have a non-zero impact on the odds making them slightly worse for the defender, so not respecting the timing correctly would technically be cheating in this case, although I would likely assume an honest mistake over malice if someone did this.

Palp is the only situation I'm aware of where tha LF timing of the additional die becomes important but there may be others so keep it in mind.

I am pretty sure this is what Lightweight Frame + Palpatine is specifically NOT required to be (though it is one option).

As I understand the current timing if played "optimally":

1) Roll normal agility

2) Decide (before rolling the LWF die) if you want to use Palpatine.

3) Roll the LWF die.

4) If you chose to use Palpatine at step 2, do so now, and set that die aside as it cannot be changed.

5) "Normal" dice modification sequence.

3 hours ago, sharrrp said:

Just a quick addendum here since Lightweight Frame was mentioned. That's the one upgrade that has an odd interaction with Palp. The wording of LF is a bit unnecessarily clunky the majority of the time but makes a potentially big difference with Palp. Normally with LF you can just roll the additional die along with the normal ones. Rolling out 2 and then 1 more as a separate action doesn't change anything. UNLESS, you called Palpatine for your evade dice.

Then the sequence becomes: 1. Roll normal agility 2. Change 1 with Palp 4. Roll additional LF die.

You can't Palp the LF die because it comes after the window for Palp. This is a small distinction but it does have a non-zero impact on the odds making them slightly worse for the defender, so not respecting the timing correctly would technically be cheating in this case, although I would likely assume an honest mistake over malice if someone did this.

Palp is the only situation I'm aware of where tha LF timing of the additional die becomes important but there may be others so keep it in mind.

Actually, you CAN Palp the LF die because you are rolling a die, and that creates another trigger for him.

And if you do so, you can change either the LF die or the defense die you rolled before, since Palp's wording allow you to change a result in that ship's dice, not just the one that you rolled after calling Palp

Yeah so in that case, you would:

Roll 2 green Dice

See what results you get

Call palp

Roll LWF dice

If the LWF Dice is an evade you can change one of the 1st 2 Dice as they count as the same pool.

At least currently that seems to be how it's being resolved.

No Palp only allows you to modify the result of the roll made after calling him. Just because that result is added to the result rolled before using LF, does not mean he can affect any die on the table.

2 hours ago, StephenEsven said:

No Palp only allows you to modify the result of the roll made after calling him. Just because that result is added to the result rolled before using LF, does not mean he can affect any die on the table.

Palp:

Quote

Once per round, before a friendly ship rolls dice, you may name a die result. After rolling, you must change 1 of its dice results to the named result. That die result cannot be modified again.

My emphasis shows that the target for the effect is not limited to the trigger for the effect. Yes, this is probably an oversight on the rulemaker's part, but that's hardly a first. I had the same reflexive assumption as you, but I went and re-read the errata before commenting and realised he was actually right, even though that seems dumb.

It's almost certainly an oversight that'll likely get FAQ'd but RAW it currently works

Yeah, i think it seems that it will be corrected too, but it is how it works now

On 6/3/2017 at 3:29 PM, Goseki1 said:

Yeah so in that case, you would:

Roll 2 green Dice

See what results you get

Call palp

Roll LWF dice

If the LWF Dice is an evade you can change one of the 1st 2 Dice as they count as the same pool.

At least currently that seems to be how it's being resolved.

From what I have heard, this is how FFG ran this interaction during Worlds!

2 hours ago, Droidlover said:

From what I have heard, this is how FFG ran this interaction during Worlds!

It's a post-nerf buff for Palp!

So, to be clear, If I'm attacking with the Upsilon and roll <hit><hit><focus><blank> and choose to reroll <focus> and <blank> with a TL, I can call "Crit" and if I roll naturally <crit><crit> on my TL re-roll, I can change one of the original hits so that I end up with <crit><crit><crit><hit>?

No. Re-rolling dice and rolling dice are not the same thing from a rules perspective.

To my knowledge the only thing that interacts this strangely is LWF and that is due entirely to how strangely it is worded.

1 hour ago, Jayyson said:

To my knowledge the only thing that interacts this strangely is LWF and that is due entirely to how strangely it is worded.

Not sure what you mean. Any reroll of attack of defence dice works this way. Predator, target locks, Han, Lone Wolf, etc.

3 hours ago, Achowat said:

So, to be clear, If I'm attacking with the Upsilon and roll <hit><hit><focus><blank> and choose to reroll <focus> and <blank> with a TL, I can call "Crit" and if I roll naturally <crit><crit> on my TL re-roll, I can change one of the original hits so that I end up with <crit><crit><crit><hit>?

you will have to call the result with palp before you roll at all, then after rolling you must change a result to the named one. You won't be able to spend a TL then use the change or call palp before a re-roll. Re-rolling dice is not the same as rolling dice.

1 hour ago, InquisitorM said:

Not sure what you mean. Any reroll of attack of defence dice works this way. Predator, target locks, Han, Lone Wolf, etc.

Palp only works on rolls, not rerolls

Yeah, I missed Spacey's post last time I posted. It makes sense mechanically, but good god we are in ever-increasing need of a glossary for this stuff.

I mean it's not like people will assume that picking up a dice and rolling it will count as a roll or anything...

On ‎03‎-‎06‎-‎2017 at 10:29 PM, Goseki1 said:

Yeah so in that case, you would:

Roll 2 green Dice

See what results you get

Call palp

Roll LWF dice

If the LWF Dice is an evade you can change one of the 1st 2 Dice as they count as the same pool.

At least currently that seems to be how it's being resolved.

For what it is worth, that is the way we ruled it at Euroes and it its the same way it was used at Worlds

Rightly so as well