Whether I'm "mischaracterizing" the issue or not (and I do understand your point regarding timing and such), the end result is that the vast majority of places and players are governing the situation one way, whereas my LGS is governing it another with our store championship upcoming. I need FFG to step up and throw me a bone, even if they think it's obvious.
Force Illusion and Shields. Local Ruling and request for offical ruling
2 hours ago, sunny ravencourt said:Whether I'm "mischaracterizing" the issue or not (and I do understand your point regarding timing and such), the end result is that the vast majority of places and players are governing the situation one way, whereas my LGS is governing it another with our store championship upcoming. I need FFG to step up and throw me a bone, even if they think it's obvious.
I understand this frustration and FFG is very slow (2 to 8 weeks) to answer rules questions e-mails. They really should create a program here in the forum to create members who can temporarily officially rule in FFG's stead while waiting for new FAQs.
Use their Rules Question site
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/
While ymmv, I've received responses from Lukas within a few hours of submitting my question.
23 minutes ago, kingbobb said:Use their Rules Question site
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/
While ymmv, I've received responses from Lukas within a few hours of submitting my question.
I've also received responses MONTHS later.
The real issue is a lack of communication between FFG and the people running the store championships. They should have a more direct and faster line of communication to get these issues resolved.
18 hours ago, Stone37 said:I've also received responses MONTHS later.
As I said, ymmv. In fact, mymmv: I'm on 2+ weeks waiting for a response on a Runewars rules question.
On 6/2/2017 at 1:25 AM, WonderWAAAGH said:It would actually be: resolve damage die -> remove shields instead of dealing damage -> place any damage tokens in excess of shields.
So I was reading the Rules today and it said damage is still dealt even if shielded. The shields stop the damage from being taken not from being dealt. It seems like two seperate effects to me.
From the Rules Reference
QuoteDamage is taken only when one or more damage tokens are placed on the character. If all damage dealt was blocked by shields or some other ability, then no damage was taken.
• Damage not taken is still dealt
Am I wrong Here?
23 hours ago, Crabshack101 said:So I was reading the Rules today and it said damage is still dealt even if shielded. The shields stop the damage from being taken not from being dealt. It seems like two seperate effects to me.
From the Rules Reference
Am I wrong Here?
Damage has a very particular order to it.
First, there's the action that creates the damage..resolving a damage dice, playing an event, using an action, etc.
Next, the damage enters the queue, counts as Dealing Damage. Look for effects that trigger off Dealing Damage.
Next, any Shields on the target character will block regular damage. Unblockable damage will not be stopped or remove a shield (note that Unblockable Damage still counts as being Dealt, so Triggers off Dealing Damage can still happen ala Dooku)
Finally, any damage that remains is placed on the target character, counts as Taking Damage, so look for Taking Damage Triggers.
So most damage will go through these 4 steps, each having the potential to trigger Before or After effects.
2 hours ago, kingbobb said:Damage has a very particular order to it.
First, there's the action that creates the damage..resolving a damage dice, playing an event, using an action, etc.
Next, the damage enters the queue, counts as Dealing Damage. Look for effects that trigger off Dealing Damage.
Next, any Shields on the target character will block regular damage. Unblockable damage will not be stopped or remove a shield (note that Unblockable Damage still counts as being Dealt, so Triggers off Dealing Damage can still happen ala Dooku)
Finally, any damage that remains is placed on the target character, counts as Taking Damage, so look for Taking Damage Triggers.So most damage will go through these 4 steps, each having the potential to trigger Before or After effects.
There's a lot wrong with this.
Source of the damage is fine.
Damage doesn't count as dealing damage when it enters the queue, only when it's resolved.
The rest of it is basically fiction
There's nothing at all in the rules to support any of it. Sure, it would be nice if there were, and it might even be a functional system, but sadly there's not.
On 6/8/2017 at 1:34 PM, Crabshack101 said:The shields stop the damage from being taken not from being dealt.
Which is, strangely enough, wholly opposite of what it says on page 16: "Each shield blocks 1 damage that would be dealt to the character"; the shield / blocking mechanism is actually a framework replacement effect, so the damage is never technically dealt.
On 6/9/2017 at 4:54 PM, Buhallin said:There's a lot wrong with this.
Source of the damage is fine.
Damage doesn't count as dealing damage when it enters the queue, only when it's resolved.
The rest of it is basically fiction
I think it's a pretty verbatim breakdown from the rules of how damage is normally resolved.
3 minutes ago, kingbobb said:I think it's a pretty verbatim breakdown from the rules of how damage is normally resolved.
It's really not. The mechanics are there, but you're creating timing where none exists.
Good, bad, or otherwise (and I think it's bad), Destiny piles a lot of pieces of game actions into single events even when it would make sense that they happen as steps. We see this in the Fast Hands/Blackmail ruling - in most games we'd see activating a character broken into steps (1. Exhaust, 2. Roll, etc) which would trigger individually, so any effects which trigger from activation would come after triggers for rolling. But the triggers for activating and rolling are simultaneous.
We know damage is applied simultaneously for a single source. It is applied all at once, which makes it a single game event. That can do multiple things, but lacking anything that defines steps or ordering we have to consider everything that comes out of that as simultaneous.
21 hours ago, Buhallin said:It's really not. The mechanics are there, but you're creating timing where none exists.
Good, bad, or otherwise (and I think it's bad), Destiny piles a lot of pieces of game actions into single events even when it would make sense that they happen as steps. We see this in the Fast Hands/Blackmail ruling - in most games we'd see activating a character broken into steps (1. Exhaust, 2. Roll, etc) which would trigger individually, so any effects which trigger from activation would come after triggers for rolling. But the triggers for activating and rolling are simultaneous.
We know damage is applied simultaneously for a single source. It is applied all at once, which makes it a single game event. That can do multiple things, but lacking anything that defines steps or ordering we have to consider everything that comes out of that as simultaneous.
You're correct in that the rules don't have a handy chart breaking things down like this. I'm applying the timing mechanics for damage as pulled from various official examples in order to render how the game breaks damage down. So the rules are there, but only if you dig into the examples and explanations given regarding different mechanics.
Just now, kingbobb said:You're correct in that the rules don't have a handy chart breaking things down like this. I'm applying the timing mechanics for damage as pulled from various official examples in order to render how the game breaks damage down. So the rules are there, but only if you dig into the examples and explanations given regarding different mechanics.
Which examples are you using that only work with the sort of stepped timing damage you're deriving?
Just now, Buhallin said:Which examples are you using that only work with the sort of stepped timing damage you're deriving?
Qui Gon and Dooku.
Just now, kingbobb said:Qui Gon and Dooku.
Would you clarify? Because Qui-Gon applies to gaining shields, and doesn't seem to have any relevance to damage. And Dooku is a before dealt effect, which means that it's fully resolved before you start dealing any damage at all. Neither of these cards or any of the rulings for them even interact with the damage process you're defining, much less mandate it.
Dooku in particular explains how shields and dealing damage interact, especially through the Mind Probe explanation. There's very clearly a set of steps, each one capable of serving as a Before or After trigger. If it all happened simultaneously, there would be a lot more chaos and argument about when things get resolved.
As it is, we know that Mind Probe checks the Dooku target's hand size before the damage is created, preventing the Dooku player from reducing the damage dealt by using Dooku's ability. Shields then block damage that is dealt (and they have to be used first, before other blocking effects like Force Illusion can be used). Remaining damage is then taken. This isn't a simultaneous process.
4 minutes ago, kingbobb said:As it is, we know that Mind Probe checks the Dooku target's hand size before the damage is created, preventing the Dooku player from reducing the damage dealt by using Dooku's ability. Shields then block damage that is dealt (and they have to be used first, before other blocking effects like Force Illusion can be used). Remaining damage is then taken. This isn't a simultaneous process.
This doesn't actually have anything to do with the damage process. All it says is that Mind Probe sets its damage value when the ability enters the queue, rather than being dynamic. Just like Dooku, it's about things that happen and complete before you even begin the process of dealing damage. And even if it weren't, it wouldn't say anything about the process of resolving damage. Even if it were dynamic it would change when Dooku discarded, which is still before the damage actually starts being dealt.
So again, this doesn't actually relate at all to the process you're creating to define what happens when you actually start dealing the damage.