Hi everyone!

After a few friendly skirmish with this upgrade (with zillo of course) my group and i decided to ask a simple question: How can rebels confront this driven by hatred guy?

The lists we use vader are built around with some guards and officers; his droids and officers; dewbacks and eJet troops... and all this people in different combinations. The point is vader looks unnstoppable now for only 13 points for our rebel lists (with eRangers, Luke, Leia, 3po, gideon, han, hera....in different ways) and all time one of us play with vader, the match result in a victory for the empire, no matter who control the rebels. (of course we don't talk about scum lists with hunters, only empire vs rebels)

Anyone have an advice or some combination that could counter this guy with a rebel list?

Be the guy playing Vader.

I think there's a reason it's being released with Ahsoka and Maul. Just saying. Whether them together is a good combo or they both bring things to their respective factions to help I haven't decided but I'm pretty confident he won't be unbeatable. And yes maul doesn't really help your rebels, but that's your chosen limitation

Yeah zillo sucks. But we also don't know what other tools are coming in the form of attachments and upgrades and command cards either. I'm thinking some Jedi and e rangers should be enough pierce to help a lot.

Also, you're gonna want to run CC's that take away defense dice - element of surprise, heightened reflexes for e rangers, and tough luck for when he rerolls his defense. Getting multiple attacks on him is big too. So I'm thinking about pummels for ahsoka (and other jedi) since she is insanely mobile. I really think meditation will be a good card with her and you can channel the force (another reason to have more Jedi synergy) to start with meditation every game.

And I'm also toying around with a high activation count heroic effort list to help get through the deck faster as smaller characters inevitably die - not so much to drop unique character cards since I don't run very many usually (though ahsoka could have a good one and I'm tempted to use davith and his). That's just some initial spitballing. And so far I haven't even tried to run the Jedi luke in my trials. I think he's really expensive and wanted to see what I could do without him first. With the heroic effort though you lose e rangers :/

Same way you beat everything: 2 deployments of elite Weequays with a vast arsenal of hunter cards.

Sounds like the Empire is poised for a comeback.

Ironically this is the question that everyone was asking when the game first came out. The three main answers were kite him, focus him down, or stun him. Kiting Vader is no longer an option now that he can move 10 spaces and still red-red attack or Force Choke. Stunning brings that down to 6 spaces, which is still a fair amount of mobility and has gotten a lot harder to do now that Saboteurs have been nerfed and the introduction of Zillo Technique.

So I guess just throw a ton of dice at him until he dies? Focused elite Rangers seem like they should be good with their automatic pierce 1 to overload Zillo Technique. If Chewbacca gets a really good upgrade then he might be the counter to Vader, he has stun on a very strong attack, and can get a red dice of damage against no defense rolls if Vader gets close to attack him.

8 hours ago, caseycheesecake said:

Same way you beat everything: 2 deployments of elite Weequays with a vast arsenal of hunter cards.

Yeah and add jabba and a bantha to this and vader fall with some focus and stramples but i'm asking about rebels that in my opinion they are a little bit worse than scum.

Don't make me wrong, in our plays vader has down sometimes even with no scum, but it takes a lot of effort by the poor rebels for only 13 points. He actually worth this. Not when he was 18 and if you focused on kill him it will bring you the victory.

5 points is a world in this game

Rebels are probably best poised to deal with him TBH. Elite Rangers have innate pierce and can whittle him down from afar, especially if they're focused, and a well timed engage followed by SoS with Jedi Luke can also take him down. Ahsoka also looks to be very good, with surges for pierce 3 and 2 damage, high mobility, and she can reroll all his defense dice if he gets a godly roll. With Driven by Hatred, I feel Vader finally becomes playable, even competitive, but not unstoppable.

Bring 50 points of rebels in your team and you'll kill him if you pretty much focus your entire team on it.

Otherwise, I would imagine you'd want multiple units with Pierce 3 and also ways to do unblockable damage.

Ublockable damage is really one of the best ways. Grenadier, Bantha, or other stuff that can't be mitigated by black dice.

22 minutes ago, RogueLieutenant said:

Otherwise, I would imagine you'd want multiple units with Pierce 3 and also ways to do unblockable damage.

Ublockable damage is really one of the best ways. Grenadier, Bantha, or other stuff that can't be mitigated by black dice.

Sadly, rebels don't have enough of this stuff. :s

I feel like the answer will be Jedi Luke, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, and Rangers, all with their pierce.

Or maybe wolverine and Drokkatta will pack a solid punch?

Or maybe Luke gets an additional CC "I feel the good in you - Push Darth Vader up to 2 spaces then you may perform a red-yellow melee attack."

7 minutes ago, Quigman said:

Or maybe Luke gets an additional CC "I feel the good in you - Push Darth Vader up to 2 spaces then you may perform a red-yellow melee attack."

I love it.

"I feel the good in you... Now, let me whack you across the map with my lightsaber."

14 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Sounds like the Empire is poised for a comeback.

Ironically this is the question that everyone was asking when the game first came out. The three main answers were kite him, focus him down, or stun him. Kiting Vader is no longer an option now that he can move 10 spaces and still red-red attack or Force Choke. Stunning brings that down to 6 spaces, which is still a fair amount of mobility and has gotten a lot harder to do now that Saboteurs have been nerfed and the introduction of Zillo Technique.

So I guess just throw a ton of dice at him until he dies? Focused elite Rangers seem like they should be good with their automatic pierce 1 to overload Zillo Technique. If Chewbacca gets a really good upgrade then he might be the counter to Vader, he has stun on a very strong attack, and can get a red dice of damage against no defense rolls if Vader gets close to attack him.

Why did the final scene in Rogue One pop into my head as soon as I read the focused E. Rangers part..

I think Vader is meant to be countered with high HP force users who have Pierce 3, which is how it should be IMO! If you want to throw three ranged attacks at Vader from blasters you should get a bit of damage but not be able to mow him down, it should take the power of a Jedi (or force using good guy in Ahsoka's case) to confront the Sith Lord!

1 hour ago, FrogTrigger said:

Why did the final scene in Rogue One pop into my head as soon as I read the focused E. Rangers part..

I think Vader is meant to be countered with high HP force users who have Pierce 3, which is how it should be IMO! If you want to throw three ranged attacks at Vader from blasters you should get a bit of damage but not be able to mow him down, it should take the power of a Jedi (or force using good guy in Ahsoka's case) to confront the Sith Lord!

True. As someone who admittedly doesn't know much about skirmish, I feel a little underqualified to say this, but... what effect might this have on the meta, then?

If the counter to Vader is "You need a force user", then does that mean that almost any list now needs either Vader or another Force user in it, or risk total annihilation?

Hard to say what the Sentry Droids and Riot Troopers bring I suppose.

Lots of people are going to want to play Vader because it's Vader, and if he wasn't enough, Emperor Palpatine will more than likely be accompanying him.

Scum and hunters will still be a great option, not to mention Maul.

I think HotE is going to crack this game right open!

1 hour ago, subtrendy2 said:

True. As someone who admittedly doesn't know much about skirmish, I feel a little underqualified to say this, but... what effect might this have on the meta, then?

If the counter to Vader is "You need a force user", then does that mean that almost any list now needs either Vader or another Force user in it, or risk total annihilation?

So first of all, I believe OP asked "counter as Rebel". You don't really need force users but you do need tons of pierce or ~: +dmg, and it just happens to be that these guys are force users w/ their lightsabers. I've had some limited success countering Vader with focused eRangers (about 3~4dmg per shot)

If we're not limited to Rebels, I'd say IG-88 is a pretty good counter to him w/ his own version of SoS: Doing Relentless (heart attack for 1 strain) + shoot with GRR 4 times is nothing to sneeze at. Potentially 6x if you have initiative on round 2

I got a feeling that the Imperial meta will shift to using fixed Vader + Zillo as base, Merc will shift to IG + Jabba + maybe eWeequay/ePigs as base. No idea on Rebel side...maybe focused eSabs will make a comeback with their potential Pierce 4 and Stun?

Haven't played with Maul, Ahsoka, or Emperor though so they might change stuff up too

Cool,

I was hoping I had read that wrong. Force users are cool and all, but I wouldn't want IA to be totally dependent on them. Though, sounds like the Empire could use the help of that ultra-Vader.

Two sets of e sabs with targeting computers. Squad swarm. If a couple of those are focused or Hera's around? That could be big.

JUst tuday i had my last encoubter against ultra vader. My list was obi wan, hera, gideon, 3po, 2eSab and rRangers.

I use a big part of my army and some powerfull commands (assesinate, tools for the job...) to try kill him when comes into my troops and at the end of the match i lost with 18-40 and vader still alive. He kills hera,gideon, 2 sabs and 2 rangers... And he causes around 9 damage in obiwan.

I felt like a child without escape. I really like vader but it seems a little op to my actual rebel lists. I hope this all change with the release of HotE and the other packs....

Sadly it wouldn't be the first time FFG broke one of their games.

Yeah I feel like Rebel is in a bad position right now. HotE's power tokens and Ahsoka might be the help Rebels desperately needs?

On the other hand, I can say from experience that IG-88 is able to shred him to pieces, bonus if you have blaze of glory: End of Round 1 IG move 7, shoot. Blaze of Glory shoot x2 more + 2MP, start of round 2 shoot x2 more + 2MP. Don't forget to trigger relentless on those 5 attacks (1 strain if within 3 spaces). Add in some hunter command cards to take him down

I've also tried running Farmboy & Jedi Luke with their Pierce 3 against hatred Vader, and neither version of Luke fared well...especially with Zillo up. I didn't have SoS in hand though so that might change stuff

So yeah either run away from him (very difficult now especially if you pair Vader with some Officers) or use high damage figures that attacks with 3 or 4 dice to take him down

edit to add:

Managed to take down Vader with Zillo up using Jedi Luke today. You need SoS & Pummel: end of Round 1 move x2, heroic. SoS to get another normal attack + heroic. Start of Round 2 I drew Pummel so heroic + Pummel, took 6(!!) attacks. With Zillo up to negate Pierce 2 you're looking at around 2~3dmg/hit. Vader's foresight (reroll def) also helped a lot

Pics for reference

It's not exactly against high level competition (my 12 and 9 year old kids), but I have had a great time tormenting them with my new Vader deck

it usually goes like this:

Me - Vader moves and force chokes.

child - ok end of round and I get initiative!

me-not yet I have Vader's end of round special ability (move, deliver crushing blow)

child - arrrrrgh, Vader is so OP!!!

me - now you see the true power of the Dark Side!

I actually used telekinetic throw on one of Vader's minions for the kill. There are multiple sources of pierce in the command cards, you just have to get a bit creative.

Critical Strike

Expose Weakness

Lots of ways to tack on extra surges and damage, remove defense or attack dice, etc.

She has Pierece 3 AND can remove one of his two dice. Which essentially means Zillo technique would make up almost all of his defense against her attacks assuming she can get a surge off.

And then he'll destroy her next round.

I like my custom version of Diala so much better. Cost of 6, 10 health, everything else the same.

So force user list will be Davith (6), Diala (7), Luke (12), Ahsoka (8), Obi-Wan (7) and you can use Heroic Effort (0).

HotE is expected to have some serious force user command cards...it'll just depend as to whether or not the Imperials will have access to the same ones.

42 minutes ago, RogueLieutenant said:

And then he'll destroy her next round.

Knowledge and Defense! Hopefully with a meditation the round before to be able to do the full move, attack, extra defense!