17 minutes ago, geek19 said:

What's stopping you from using Needa to replace the Brace so you have a speed 3 hull 6 TRCR90 with substantially more health and the ability to survive most threats. If it can't survive them, it runs away from them and doesn't die.

The fact that without the brace a single shot from any large ship and honestly most mediums could pop this thing with relative ease, especially if running xi7s... which is fairly common in my meta at least...

2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay but here's what I don't get.... so you're saying my pizza slice is just too costly at 8 points over a AFB and yet the design for the AFA... is 9 points more expensive and adds nearly the same amount of dice...




I count
+3 blues (12 points as quoted by you)
-1 squad (must be worth 3)
=+9 points

On mine I've added

+2 reds (+10 as quoted by you)
+2blues (+8 as quoted by you )
-2 squad (-6 as referenced from above)
-1 eng ( x)
-1shield(y)
=+8 points

At worst were looking at a =/- of what, 2 points? Presuming engineering and shields aren't fractions, 0s, or negatives...

You also have to consider, as others pointed out, the use of the ship. The AF doesn't have a lot of dice per arc, so double arcs aren't too nasty. Your ship has 10 dice double/arc as compared to its 7, or 8 dice with GT as compared to its 4. Don't count admirals for damage (though you should consider how they interact, see later), since that drives the cost up. The difference between engineering 3 & 4 is minimal. It's the difference between 3 & 2 that is more important. You also (again, as mentioned above) have to consider how admirals interact with the ship. As I said above, don't count the dice additions like Ackbar - that's something that is dependent on attack options and whatnot. I mean the 'neutral' buffs like Dodonna or Motti. Motti on this thing gives you a VSD-II essentially, for 5 points cheaper. If you don't want a VSD-carrier, you take this. It's the Tector of VSDs. As such, you're invalidating ever taking a VSD-II unless you load up on upgrades, and you provide it with opportunities people otherwise buy ISDs for.

So basically, when considering cost, also consider balance. It may look like the AFs are priced similarly to your ship, but they aren't. Perhaps if you remove either the weapons team slot, the officer slot, or the offensive retrofit slot (or a combo thereof), and lose some side-arc dice, it'll be more acceptable.

45 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay but here's what I don't get.... so you're saying my pizza slice is just too costly at 8 points over a AFB and yet the design for the AFA... is 9 points more expensive and adds nearly the same amount of dice...




I count
+3 blues (12 points as quoted by you)
-1 squad (must be worth -3)
=+9 points

On mine I've added

+2 reds (+10 as quoted by you)
+2blues (+8 as quoted by you )
-2 squad (-6 as referenced from above)
-1 eng ( x)
-1shield(y)
=+8 points

At worst were looking at a =/- of what, 2 points? Presuming engineering and shields aren't fractions, 0s, or negatives...

You can't just arbitrarily say that the design scheme is the same for the Rebels and Imperials, and you REALLY can't just say X and Y and not put numbers in there. Imperial ships and rebel ships are not the same, especially because of Imperial commanders. There's not enough trade-off with what you have to make it cost the points it does. If you want an Imperial ship that's a good Medium brawler, following Imperial design standards, you need to get rid of several other things it has going for it right now. Reducing the squadrons isn't enough here.

Further, you take an AFIIA (81), add in 2 reds and a blue to the front and you get +14 by Dras Math. You reduce the squadrons by 1 and get +11. Even reducing the engineering and shields by 1 each and the blue dice out the back, giving you +8 means this should be costing BARE MINIMUM 90.... and that's if youre designing a REBEL ship. All the math from everyone needs work, too, as look at the Star Cruiser. The base cost there is 96, and you've designed a better Star Cruiser for 16 points cheaper. It MIGHT be acceptable as an Imp at 90ish, but it still seems overpowered for its cost.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

But straight up - If you believe that there is a grand conspiracy to immediately and irrevocably over-cost every Imperial ship just because they're Imperial, then we're never going to see the light of design day, and honestly, you should probably not play, since it'll always be unfair to you.

*Incoming Rant*

Where did I say that I thought that there was a grand conspiracy? I didn't. Do I think that Imperial ships are overcosted compared to their Rebel counterparts? Yes. Do I think that Imperials are in any way useless due to this? No, and I frequently enjoy playing Imperial. Literally, here is my latest wave six iteration of IVV. All Angry Triangles. Not a Rogue to be seen.

W6.4 (400/400)
=============
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 19)
+ Chart Officer (2)
+ Boarding Troopers (3)
+ Spinal Armament (9)
+ Avenger (5)
Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 + 29)
+ Moff Jerjerrod (23)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 + 11)
+ Veteran Gunners (5)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 9)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
4 x Tie Fighter Squadron (8)

Would I like the Empire to have a speed 3 front arcer? Yes, and I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread where I said that.

2 hours ago, ianediger said:

Honestly, if we would ever get a Vindicator (unlikely, but I can dream, ok?), then this might be close to the stats, probably toned down a bit and on a small base...

See? Use it as a starting place, adjust some stats, and look there, we've just made a small ship front arcer for the Empire. Have I had a long day? Yes, and I'm sorry I sound angry, but, well, I am. I've just about had it with these forums and all the bull and veiled personal attacks against other users that's been basically the norm for the past few months. This place is starting to make the Armada Reddit page look good.

[End Rant]

Okay, so say we literally scrap the pizza slice in the OP. Let's just take this:

What would an imperial ship with this dice layout cost?

With nothing added nothing lost, only moved. We moved 1 red from each side to the front, and the 1 blue from the rear to the front. (As shown).

-would merely moving dice cause a change in points?

-Would the imperials pay more for the same stats?

6 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay, so say we literally scrap the pizza slice in the OP. Let's just take this:

[snip]

What would an imperial ship with this dice layout cost?

With nothing added nothing lost, only moved. We moved 1 red from each side to the front, and the 1 blue from the rear to the front. (As shown).

-would merely moving dice cause a change in points?

-Would the imperials pay more for the same stats?

Most likely yes to both. As a front arcer, adding dice to the front will increase cost. I would say it would cost somewhere in the upper 80s to low 90s, just as is. If you loose the DRetro and maybe either the ORetro or the Weapons Teams, that'll bring it down substantially, probably nearer to the high 70s/low-to-mid 80s.

3 minutes ago, ianediger said:

*Incoming Rant*

Where did I say that I thought that there was a grand conspiracy? I didn't. Do I think that Imperial ships are overcosted compared to their Rebel counterparts? Yes. Do I think that Imperials are in any way useless due to this? No, and I frequently enjoy playing Imperial. Literally, here is my latest wave six iteration of IVV. All Angry Triangles. Not a Rogue to be seen.

W6.4 (400/400)
=============
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 19)
+ Chart Officer (2)
+ Boarding Troopers (3)
+ Spinal Armament (9)
+ Avenger (5)
Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 + 29)
+ Moff Jerjerrod (23)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 + 11)
+ Veteran Gunners (5)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 9)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
4 x Tie Fighter Squadron (8)

Would I like the Empire to have a speed 3 front arcer? Yes, and I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread where I said that.

See? Use it as a starting place, adjust some stats, and look there, we've just made a small ship front arcer for the Empire. Have I had a long day? Yes, and I'm sorry I sound angry, but, well, I am. I've just about had it with these forums and all the bull and veiled personal attacks against other users that's been basically the norm for the past few months. This place is starting to make the Armada Reddit page look good.

[End Rant]

It wasn't intended as personal - I can be very direct. If you didn't say it, if you don't believe it, then it doesn't apply to you, simple as that, mate

And to be honest, I wasn't responding to your design - I'd like to see the stats, again, toned down - I gave my own feedback on it...

But like you, I'm tired of it as well, and part of my tiredness is a distinct lack of people experimenting and trying and learning what they have, and instead, defaulting to "GIVE US THE BEST"... Did you in particular, ask for that? No. But it was asked for, and I responded directly.

I believe the Imperials should have a Speed 3 Medium Front Arcer - even based it on what was shown. Would be happy with that, indeed.

The problem is, people are inherently and irrevocably attached to their designs - because they're their designs... And it does get heated. I try to sprinkle smiley faces more often than I used to, but for sure, I'm still a gruff, grumpy old bastard at heart. Especially when I think I'm right. I think anyone who has spent any time in the Rules Sub-Forum can attest.

So apologies if there were any veiled personal attacks - they certainly weren't intended.

I do deliberately use Strawmen and Hyperbole to draw attentions across to certain things - a lot of the time, its just to see if I'm called out on it - (hint, I'm not - that's disapponting in and of itself...) and I will agree that there may be the perception that I overdid it with that one.

I guess the main problem is I try to educate people in the things that I am actually educated in, and honestly, no-one seems to want that - so do I end up feeling like a reasonable, educated person benging my head against a wall? Sure. Sure do.

But hey, you had a long day at work, and I feel like I'm dying slowly in this chair as problem after problem manifests with my health... So I'm passionate about the one non-family related thing that brings me joy. Makes me defensive, too.

All in all, I just want to be listened to.

Perhaps the single biggest problem is, as an ex-expert, I'm just wanting to be validated.

@Darth Sanguis

You would pay more, because dice in the rear-arc are apparently demonstrably cheaper than in other arcs.

6 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay, so say we literally scrap the pizza slice in the OP. Let's just take this:

*snip*

What would an imperial ship with this dice layout cost?

With nothing added nothing lost, only moved. We moved 1 red from each side to the front, and the 1 blue from the rear to the front. (As shown).

-would merely moving dice cause a change in points?

-Would the imperials pay more for the same stats?

I think that moving dice would add a bit to the cost, since instead having 2 'meh' attacks, you can have 1 'meh' and one good attack. I.e. instead of 5 red 2 blue (double arc), you get 6 red 3 blue (assuming I read your movement right) that's a difference of 2 dice essentially. So I think a price change would be incurred. . . how much though, I cannot say definitively (duh), but I'd imagine a couple of points. . . basically I think that what you describe would be roughly 85 points, irrespective of the faction it belongs to. So you're getting a faster VSD with a slightly different arc load-out.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

It wasn't intended as personal - I can be very direct. If you didn't say it, if you don't believe it, then it doesn't apply to you, simple as that, mate

And to be honest, I wasn't responding to your design - I'd like to see the stats, again, toned down - I gave my own feedback on it...

But like you, I'm tired of it as well, and part of my tiredness is a distinct lack of people experimenting and trying and learning what they have, and instead, defaulting to "GIVE US THE BEST"... Did you in particular, ask for that? No. But it was asked for, and I responded directly.

I believe the Imperials should have a Speed 3 Medium Front Arcer - even based it on what was shown. Would be happy with that, indeed.

The problem is, people are inherently and irrevocably attached to their designs - because they're their designs... And it does get heated. I try to sprinkle smiley faces more often than I used to, but for sure, I'm still a gruff, grumpy old bastard at heart. Especially when I think I'm right. I think anyone who has spent any time in the Rules Sub-Forum can attest.

So apologies if there were any veiled personal attacks - they certainly weren't intended.

I do deliberately use Strawmen and Hyperbole to draw attentions across to certain things - a lot of the time, its just to see if I'm called out on it - (hint, I'm not - that's disapponting in and of itself...) and I will agree that there may be the perception that I overdid it with that one.

I guess the main problem is I try to educate people in the things that I am actually educated in, and honestly, no-one seems to want that - so do I end up feeling like a reasonable, educated person benging my head against a wall? Sure. Sure do.

But hey, you had a long day at work, and I feel like I'm dying slowly in this chair as problem after problem manifests with my health... So I'm passionate about the one non-family related thing that brings me joy. Makes me defensive, too.

All in all, I just want to be listened to.

Perhaps the single biggest problem is, as an ex-expert, I'm just wanting to be validated.

@Darth Sanguis

You would pay more, because dice in the rear-arc are apparently demonstrably cheaper than in other arcs.

I'm sorry as well, it was no excuse, but it just happened to boil over just then.

11 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

-Would the imperials pay more for the same stats?

Do Rebels pay more for Madine than Imperials pay for Jerrod?

Do Rebels pay more for escort than Imperials?

Do Rebels pay more for bombers than Imperials?

Do Rebels pay more for dice rerolls than Imperials? (No because they havent got any)

Thos is what is meant by balance. The factions are not the same, and I trully feel sorry for players who only play one side.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You would pay more, because dice in the rear-arc are apparently demonstrably cheaper than in other arcs.

Okay. Is that the only price increase? I ask because the next step to my thought process is stripping other values to lower the cost, first being the blue die in anti squadron, next -1 squad value, then -1 engineering, and last losing the offensive retrofit.

What would that average out to?

5 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay. Is that the only price increase? I ask because the next step to my thought process is stripping other values to lower the cost, first being the blue die in anti squadron, next -1 squad value, then -1 engineering, and last losing the offensive retrofit.

What would that average out to?

Taking other people's estimates, assuming the above idea costs 90 points, then removing an anti-squadron dice (4 points), a squadron (3 points) and an engineering (1 point), would result in an 82 point ship. . . but then you have to consider that you can't just remove numbers like that (even assuming they're accurate). . . Given that the point of this thing is a brawler, I think that the squadron command would be costed at less then 3 points, and I think that the anti-squadron would be similarly devalued, as being good against squadrons is merely a bonus for this ship. It clearly wants nothing to do with them. . . I think that as such you'd only take off 3 points for both of those, resulting in a 86 point ship. . . Losing the offensive retrofit again, has an arbitrary cost value (as of now), and is the least important upgrade slot. Most of the cards that use it (bar 3) are for squadron related events. Of the other 3, one is DC, which focuses on blue dice - something you have few of. As such, you'd only consider the boarding cards. Those I don't think are enough of a consideration on a ship that doesn't want to be in close range (no black dice), so should also be disregarded - thus, in the end, you find that the OR isn't of much value at all to this ship, and thus shouldn't cost more than 2 points to remove, leaving you with an 84 point ship.

So the removal of all those would result in a 6 point total decrease in cost. Depending on the final cost of the initial ship (in the range of 85-90 points) you'd have a points range of 79-84 points.

7 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do Rebels pay more for Madine than Imperials pay for Jerrod?

Do Rebels pay more for escort than Imperials?

Do Rebels pay more for bombers than Imperials?

Do Rebels pay more for dice rerolls than Imperials? (No because they havent got any)

Thos is what is meant by balance. The factions are not the same, and I trully feel sorry for players who only play one side.

Doesn't really answer my question.

-JJ costs less but forces the user to suffer damage, which adds up, so that's a liters yes functional no?

-escort varies by one point, except rebels get an extra blue AA die and have bomber but move 1 speed slower, so literal yes, functional definitely not?

-Ys are 1 point more move one less speed and have 1 extra hull, however rebels also have a variance of multiroll bombers, it could be said that since an x wing can both AA and AS well the rebels have less "cost0 altogether. so again literal yes, functional no?

-both Mc80s have an ion slot for LS, liberty, mc30 and AF can VG, the AF and Mc30 can both OE too... I recognize it was sarcasm but rebels get rerolls, just not in the same places. So again literal yes functional no?

I play both sides, I just don't like the the imps don't have a well rounded medium. The VIC and INT just don't cut it for me.

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay. Is that the only price increase? I ask because the next step to my thought process is stripping other values to lower the cost, first being the blue die in anti squadron, next -1 squad value, then -1 engineering, and last losing the offensive retrofit.

What would that average out to?

On straight, raw, no other changes (including factional change), that would probably be on the only increase on the face of it...

This is given by the fact that Side Red Dice are priced immediately at 5 Per side.

The unfortunate part is, the Dice values are the only thing we have actual point values for. These things are basically made with at least some adherence to a formulae (which @DiabloAzul and @GiledPallaeon worked out to some degree), but it becomes much harder to base it from that point on...

Simply changing the affilation will have en effect on points costs... Especially when its something that "Fits" in with the place where its going... I mean, could you imagine a Rebel Arquitens? that thing'd be Crazy, and would punch well above its weight, because its design work fits completely and utterly in with the Rebel mindset, rather than the Imperial one.

Upgrade slots could also be pointed on base of statistics, or even on gunlines... For example, a Shpi that has a massive front arc, and no side arcs to speak of, is probably paying a tax on its Weapon Team slot, because its going to be Gunnery Team, and its going to be awesome there... But for example, a Gunnery slot on an Interdictor might be less, because you're already so heavily encouraged to Double-Arc, that its actually a penalty of sorts to resort to Gunnery team, over some of the other upgrades.

If it were me designing? Making a Ship jump from One side to the other, if nothing else, is an immedaitely 5-10 point hike. You're doing it because it fills a gap, so you better believe you're going to pay for it... (and I'd pay 60 points for an Arquitens in the Rebels, as a comparison point... Same as I'd pay ISD-II cost for an ISD-I in the Rebels... That stuff's just simply freakin' awesome).

As was mentined by the Geek of the 19s, dropping Engineering would certainly have variable values based on what you can do... Engineering 3 is a big kicker, because you're able to remove Damage cards on your own. I'm sure that Engineering 2 is far less value because of that, in comparison, whereas with Engineering 4, you're escalating up with what you can do with both the dial alone, and Dial+Token.

I also find it interesting that the point of comparison here is the AFMK-II... Because, honestly... Outside of Ackbar Swirls and Gallant Haven Rieekan Aces - neitehr of which apply to the Imperials - You don't see Assault Frigates Very Often, because they're just... midline. They don't do anythingin particular "great" other than Squadrons, and they're basically paying Victory size to do it....


So more to the point I guess I ask - if you want the Imperial Front-Arcer.. What's the problem with dissing the Sides basically completely and potentially reaping more points rewards in doing so?

If nothing else, just be aware that you are asking questions that only FFG designers can actually answer (how much xx should cost) because we don't have access to completely formulaes... So please be forgiving when we can't completley answer your questions.

I'd be interested to see a vague idea for either a no side arcs shots or a no squadron, command or AA period. Dunno if it'd be GOOD, but it'd be interesting to say the least. Of course, I just sorta vaguely crafted something between a Nebulon and a LMC80, 2 rebel ships. Doesn't really help the Imperial side.

@Darth Sanguisyou might be a little irritated at something. You have fine intentions but perhaps we should step back for a bit. Personally I am totally opposite your viewpoint. I think Vsds represent the future. Would you like to discuss that with me? I don't intend to dissuade you from your opinion. Ur I've found battle plans that are fun and highly powerful for the vsd.

And I won't disagree that a vsd is pretty slow.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

On straight, raw, no other changes (including factional change), that would probably be on the only increase on the face of it...

This is given by the fact that Side Red Dice are priced immediately at 5 Per side.

The unfortunate part is, the Dice values are the only thing we have actual point values for. These things are basically made with at least some adherence to a formulae (which @DiabloAzul and @GiledPallaeon worked out to some degree), but it becomes much harder to base it from that point on...

Simply changing the affilation will have en effect on points costs... Especially when its something that "Fits" in with the place where its going... I mean, could you imagine a Rebel Arquitens? that thing'd be Crazy, and would punch well above its weight, because its design work fits completely and utterly in with the Rebel mindset, rather than the Imperial one.

Upgrade slots could also be pointed on base of statistics, or even on gunlines... For example, a Shpi that has a massive front arc, and no side arcs to speak of, is probably paying a tax on its Weapon Team slot, because its going to be Gunnery Team, and its going to be awesome there... But for example, a Gunnery slot on an Interdictor might be less, because you're already so heavily encouraged to Double-Arc, that its actually a penalty of sorts to resort to Gunnery team, over some of the other upgrades.

If it were me designing? Making a Ship jump from One side to the other, if nothing else, is an immedaitely 5-10 point hike. You're doing it because it fills a gap, so you better believe you're going to pay for it... (and I'd pay 60 points for an Arquitens in the Rebels, as a comparison point... Same as I'd pay ISD-II cost for an ISD-I in the Rebels... That stuff's just simply freakin' awesome).

As was mentined by the Geek of the 19s, dropping Engineering would certainly have variable values based on what you can do... Engineering 3 is a big kicker, because you're able to remove Damage cards on your own. I'm sure that Engineering 2 is far less value because of that, in comparison, whereas with Engineering 4, you're escalating up with what you can do with both the dial alone, and Dial+Token.

I also find it interesting that the point of comparison here is the AFMK-II... Because, honestly... Outside of Ackbar Swirls and Gallant Haven Rieekan Aces - neitehr of which apply to the Imperials - You don't see Assault Frigates Very Often, because they're just... midline. They don't do anythingin particular "great" other than Squadrons, and they're basically paying Victory size to do it....


So more to the point I guess I ask - if you want the Imperial Front-Arcer.. What's the problem with dissing the Sides basically completely and potentially reaping more points rewards in doing so?

If nothing else, just be aware that you are asking questions that only FFG designers can actually answer (how much xx should cost) because we don't have access to completely formulaes... So please be forgiving when we can't completley answer your questions.

A lot to mull over...

I'm going to take another swing at this tomorrow.

4 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

A lot to mull over...

I'm going to take another swing at this tomorrow.

But please don't change the mickey mouse ears or the pizza camo pattern, those are perfect!

14 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

@Darth Sanguisyou might be a little irritated at something. You have fine intentions but perhaps we should step back for a bit. Personally I am totally opposite your viewpoint. I think Vsds represent the future. Would you like to discuss that with me? I don't intend to dissuade you from your opinion. Ur I've found battle plans that are fun and highly powerful for the vsd.

And I won't disagree that a vsd is pretty slow.

I actually don't hate them as much as I say. Especially after waves 3-4-5 and the upcoming Dcaps in wave 6. They definitely fill a roll I use OFTEN.

I'm sure you've seen me rattle on about my ISD Avenger PT fleet by now, but most don't realize I often run a VIC II to save points for a solid fighter screen. It's easier now with Tua, which basically makes a VIC a slower mini ISD.

My my frustration comes after taking a break from the imps to play rebels. The AFII is underrated as hell. With Akbar, GTs, ECMs, a good bomber wing, the thing can really tear it up. I was making sport of my local ISD players with the thing.

Now here I am, back to the imps, and I wanna do the same thing, but VICs are just too slow, and an ISD is just way too costly. The interdictor lacks a decent damage output, and everything else is either close range dependent too fragile or has a boardside gun focus...

The Vic just takes the brunt from me because wave 3-4 it cracked under pressure without ECMs in the fleets I ran. Lol

5 minutes ago, Xeletor said:

But please don't change the mickey mouse ears or the pizza camo pattern, those are perfect!

I was thinking calzone for the next one, but maybe I'll just change the toppings.

Anchovies anyone?

18 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I actually don't hate them as much as I say. Especially after waves 3-4-5 and the upcoming Dcaps in wave 6. They definitely fill a roll I use OFTEN.

I'm sure you've seen me rattle on about my ISD Avenger PT fleet by now, but most don't realize I often run a VIC II to save points for a solid fighter screen. It's easier now with Tua, which basically makes a VIC a slower mini ISD.

My my frustration comes after taking a break from the imps to play rebels. The AFII is underrated as hell. With Akbar, GTs, ECMs, a good bomber wing, the thing can really tear it up. I was making sport of my local ISD players with the thing.

Now here I am, back to the imps, and I wanna do the same thing, but VICs are just too slow, and an ISD is just way too costly. The interdictor lacks a decent damage output, and everything else is either close range dependent too fragile or has a boardside gun focus...

The Vic just takes the brunt from me because wave 3-4 it cracked under pressure without ECMs in the fleets I ran. Lol

I'll say this. I don't even think bombers are the bane of Vsds. (They counter everything). Ackbar IS the counter to Vsds. Like the hard 65-35% type counter. If you're banging your head on the wall for that I think it's because it's a fundamental truth.

Now I'll say this: I predominantly play ackbar. I played a lot of ackbar AFs in my armada career. But AFs are really not in a good place right now. They're outclassed in role by other ships and gunships are shyt upon by bombers. The ackbar AF gunline really isn't that strong right now. And I've tried it. So I'd have to really take a grain of salt that the AF to vsd comparison is meritous.

Also ecm or AP really helps the Vsds.

But just.... avoid taking Vsds vs ackbar. It's an issue of how the threat bubbles work.

11 hours ago, geek19 said:

I'd be interested to see a vague idea for either a no side arcs shots or a no squadron, command or AA period. Dunno if it'd be GOOD, but it'd be interesting to say the least. Of course, I just sorta vaguely crafted something between a Nebulon and a LMC80, 2 rebel ships. Doesn't really help the Imperial side.

Hmmmm. . . what about:

Hull: 6, Command: 3, Squadron: 0, Engineering: 3, Speed: 3 (notches same as Whale)
Defense Tokens: Brace, Redirect, Evade

Version I:
Shields: 3/3/2
Dice: 4red2blue/1red/zip
AA: zip
Upgrade Slots: Title, Officer, Weapons Team, Defensive Retrofit, Turbolaser

Version II:
Shields: 3/3/2
Dice: 5red3blue/zip/zip
AA: zip
Upgrade Slots: Title, Officer, Weapons Team, Defensive Retrofit, Turbolaser

What cost would you give to these?

so is there a 3 meat upgrade or is it only a cheese MK I and pepperoni MK II (yes I had to go there).

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

On straight, raw, no other changes (including factional change), that would probably be on the only increase on the face of it...

This is given by the fact that Side Red Dice are priced immediately at 5 Per side.

The unfortunate part is, the Dice values are the only thing we have actual point values for. These things are basically made with at least some adherence to a formulae (which @DiabloAzul and @GiledPallaeon worked out to some degree), but it becomes much harder to base it from that point on...

Simply changing the affilation will have en effect on points costs... Especially when its something that "Fits" in with the place where its going... I mean, could you imagine a Rebel Arquitens? that thing'd be Crazy, and would punch well above its weight, because its design work fits completely and utterly in with the Rebel mindset, rather than the Imperial one.

Upgrade slots could also be pointed on base of statistics, or even on gunlines... For example, a Shpi that has a massive front arc, and no side arcs to speak of, is probably paying a tax on its Weapon Team slot, because its going to be Gunnery Team, and its going to be awesome there... But for example, a Gunnery slot on an Interdictor might be less, because you're already so heavily encouraged to Double-Arc, that its actually a penalty of sorts to resort to Gunnery team, over some of the other upgrades.

If it were me designing? Making a Ship jump from One side to the other, if nothing else, is an immedaitely 5-10 point hike. You're doing it because it fills a gap, so you better believe you're going to pay for it... (and I'd pay 60 points for an Arquitens in the Rebels, as a comparison point... Same as I'd pay ISD-II cost for an ISD-I in the Rebels... That stuff's just simply freakin' awesome).

As was mentined by the Geek of the 19s, dropping Engineering would certainly have variable values based on what you can do... Engineering 3 is a big kicker, because you're able to remove Damage cards on your own. I'm sure that Engineering 2 is far less value because of that, in comparison, whereas with Engineering 4, you're escalating up with what you can do with both the dial alone, and Dial+Token.

I also find it interesting that the point of comparison here is the AFMK-II... Because, honestly... Outside of Ackbar Swirls and Gallant Haven Rieekan Aces - neitehr of which apply to the Imperials - You don't see Assault Frigates Very Often, because they're just... midline. They don't do anythingin particular "great" other than Squadrons, and they're basically paying Victory size to do it....


So more to the point I guess I ask - if you want the Imperial Front-Arcer.. What's the problem with dissing the Sides basically completely and potentially reaping more points rewards in doing so?

If nothing else, just be aware that you are asking questions that only FFG designers can actually answer (how much xx should cost) because we don't have access to completely formulaes... So please be forgiving when we can't completley answer your questions.

We worked at that for a very long time, and the thread is evidence we accomplished one thing and one thing only: we had fun. I was never a fan of the DP20 (I didn't think it had enough of a niche, and was a bit overcosted versus the Raider), and I was one of the only fans of the last Venator design. In any case, Drasnighta is correct about a couple of our rules. Notably, if you like it, it's probably overpowered and/or undercosted. If it doesn't fit the faction style, it better have a reason, and it better come at a premium. If it's filling a gap, that's worth more than just the weapons and upgrades. If you want the old formulas we used to put darts on a board, I still have the old MATLAB code and BGG forum links. DA probably does too. Our rule of thumb was that barring exceptional circumstances, take the higher number of the two outputs, and probably add a "customs tax". I can take another look at the ship if you'd like, I skimmed it, but I don't have any specific comments offhand. I also had the habit of designing to what I wanted, then slicing something off. Take these tips as you will, I'm happy to discuss more as you're curious. And remember nothing here is personal. We're all happy you're engaged enough in the game that you want to dig into the game even farther into the future, but remember that we're just trying to help. Good luck.

7 hours ago, ianediger said:

Honestly, if we would ever get a Vindicator (unlikely, but I can dream, ok?), then this might be close to the stats, probably toned down a bit and on a small base...

Vindicator is 600 meters long, so it should stay a medium-base.