I've been building fleets all day and repeatedly I keep running into the same dead end... the Imperials don't have a reliable medium size combat ship. Of course, the Interdictor has it's place, and some people seem to think the Victory SD is good enough, but compared to the assault frigate I really don't think either are worth their points.... I'm frustrated 'cause I've got this build design in my mind, and no way to use it, because the imperial designers can't seem to figure out how to balance a ship...

So my idea of a perfect combat ready medium sized ship.... stats comparable to the AF...

Behold the Pizza-slice II class attack cruiser ....

FFGPls.

Honestly, if we would ever get a Vindicator (unlikely, but I can dream, ok?), then this might be close to the stats, probably toned down a bit and on a small base...

So you made a better VSD-II for cheaper. Yeah, I don't think that's really a fair ship. It costs 5 points less for a better forward and side attacks, significantly better speed, better shielding, a defense token suite with an Evade, and a free defensive retrofit. You took most of what you wanted off an ISD and put it on a VSD for the cost of a VSD. Yes, it's only 6 health, but with the existence of Motti or Jerry, it's not fair to be able to bring this. Your concessions for making it weaker seem to be that you reduced the ability to command squadrons and gave it 1 less point of Engineering. In the realm of the Quasar existing now, that's not a downside for the squadrons, and with the Engineering, you have Motti still around, and Gozantis can pass Engineering tokens easily. Your concessions aren't ENOUGH, is what I'm saying.

Look at it another way. What if you made a Rebel ship that would be super great for Sato to use or something like that, but you didn't factor Ackbar or Mothma into it? That'd get pretty broken with them, and THAT'S why I have issues with this.

I don't think its balanced at all, regrettably... Especially in comparison to the AFMK-II, as it proports to be.

I mean, its only *real* drawback is Squadron 1... Which isn't a massive drawback - we can tell that Dice are weighted more-favourably in points than Squadron is in the 3-2 range anyway... because the AFMK-II adds a grand total of 3 blue dice (one front, one rear, one anti-squadron) and walks away with more points than the AFMK-IIB, despite the B having the extra Squadron Activation...

Granted, it does trade 2 shields overall, but still maintains the offensive/defensive/gunnery platform in identical manners... But that Front Arc... That's the real killer here, to me. Not and still end up cheaper than an Assault Frigate .

Even if you assume the Victory class as being overcosted, this is only seven points more. Cheaper than a Victory II... The Essential guide question I ask then is How overcosted is the Victory II by that comparison point?

Also, I really should have a rule where I don't comment on these sorts of threads.

In fact, I'll put that in place now...

That would be a really cool ship but 80 points is too cheap. I would say a ship with those stats should be about 95 points.

Okay.... so lemme get this right.....
-2 squad value
-1 engineering value
-1 forward shield
+4 dice
+ 8 point cost
makes no sense?

mmmkay.... I guess the rebels just want to have their cake and eat it too while the empire has to toil between speed 2 garbage and 120 points of over compensation to have some guns....



laaaaame

(Dammit)

Hmmm he has a point

You also really can't compare ships at similar price points, as they have different roles, commanders, officers/upgrades, etc. The CR90 and Raider are both 44(ish) points. The Raider wants to fight in close, the CR90A wants to lob turbolasers from range. The VSD is speed 2, the AF is speed 3. They have different jobs. The Rebels also don't have Motti, who turns this into a better VSD (8 health total). The downside of the VSD is it's turning ability; that's half the design behind it. You can't just improve both its firepower output AND turning and then make it cost LESS than a VSD-II for barely any downgrade. Yes, it can't push squadrons. That's not a stupendous downside, nor reducing its engineering by 1 either. Why does this ship have a potential speed-3? How is THAT fair? Look at it this way: if this ship existed, what reason would you ever have for taking a VSD-II again?

And because i ignored it earlier, what's wrong with the VSD-II now that DCaps exist?

15 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

mmmkay.... I guess the rebels just want to have their cake and eat it too while the empire has to toil between speed 2 garbage and 120 points of over compensation to have some guns....



laaaaame

I'm going to say it now. I won't abide lazy-***-games-design-sarcasm.

So here's my Rant, in the best of intentions, of course:

Before you ***** about it, look at the design from the other side...

As a Rebel Player ... How much would you pay to SLAP THAT FRONT ARC ON AN ASSAULT FRIGATE.

Because we already know roughly how many points those Dice are worth....

... Reds seemingly set you back roughly 5 points a Pop... Potentially with a -1 point deduction for the Rear arc.

... Blues are 4 a Pop.

You've added almost 20 points of Dice alone .

Then expected to get 10 points of discount out of 1 Shield, 1 engineering, and 2 Squadron....

... Its an even worse comparison when you compare to the AFMK-IIA. Which is more expensive than This.

Yes, you should have a Speed 3 Medium Combat Ship... I don't deny or begrudge that.. But pick a capability to be good at , , rather than "everything".

Because, for example - the AFMK-II still suffers from the "GET IN ITS FRONT ARC AND YOU'RE LAUGHING" Syndrome - What Weakness does the Pizza Slice have in comparison.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

No, I'm going to say it now. I won't abide lazy-***-games-design-sarcasm.

Before you ***** about it, look at the design from the other side...

As a Rebel Player ... How much would you pay to SLAP THAT FRONT ARC ON AN ASSAULT FRIGATE.

Because we already know roughly how many points those Dice are worth....

... Reds seemingly set you back roughly 5 points a Pop... Potentially with a -1 point deduction for the Rear arc.

... Blues are 4 a Pop.

You've added almost 20 points of Dice alone .

Then expected to get 10 points of discount out of 1 Shield, 1 engineering, and 2 Squadron....

... Its an even worse comparison when you compare to the AFMK-IIA. Which is more expensive than This.

Yes, you should have a Speed 3 Medium Combat Ship... I don't deny or begrudge that.. But pick a capability to be good at , , rather than "everything".

Because, for example - the AFMK-II still suffers from the "GET IN ITS FRONT ARC AND YOU'RE LAUGHING" Syndrome - What Weakness does the Pizza Slice have in comparison.

And squadrons 1 isn't the answer. The AF2A has 2 squadrons and costs more. That's not a significant downside, especially when its AA goes up to 2 blue dice.

@Drasnighta : designing speed 3 Medium combat ships (since i think we can agree from Regionals data that Mediums needed help and all), what would you say are the areas you can be good at? Hull/Shields, firepower, points cost, what else? Dice range maybe?

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

As a Rebel Player ... How much would you pay to SLAP THAT FRONT ARC ON AN ASSAULT FRIGATE.

Nothing because my commander already lets me slap 2 dice onto both my side arcs.... and it effects all my ships... The imperials don't have that...

...

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

the AFMK-II still suffers from the "GET IN ITS FRONT ARC AND YOU'RE LAUGHING" Syndrome - What Weakness does the Pizza Slice have in comparison.

It suffers from the "bring even a basic bomber wing and you're laughing" syndrome , which... ya know... rebels so... it's not like that's never gonna happen...

30 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Look at it another way. What if you made a Rebel ship that would be super great for Sato to use or something like that, but you didn't factor Ackbar or Mothma into it? That'd get pretty broken with them, and THAT'S why I have issues with this.

So the MC30? lol

The main issue is the comparison to the assault frigate rather than

The MC80 Liberty.... that 103pt ship..

13 minutes ago, geek19 said:

what reason would you ever have for taking a VSD-II again?

And because i ignored it earlier, what's wrong with the VSD-II now that DCaps exist?

exactly... heap that thing into a dumpster and light it on fire... lol

I jest, but I hate speed 2... even with d-caps, it's just too slow.... the benefit of taking a Vic II would be the Ion slot... rerolls, Op, Nks the lot...

Just now, Ginkapo said:

The main issue is the comparison to the assault frigate rather than

The MC80 Liberty.... that 103pt ship..

Which really should be compared to the ISD-II.

That 120 point ship.

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

Nothing because my commander already lets me slap 2 dice onto both my side arcs.... and it effects all my ships... The imperials don't have that...

It suffers from the "bring even a basic bomber wing and you're laughing" syndrome , which... ya know... rebels so... it's not like that's never gonna happen...

Paid 38 points and lose the ability to shoot anything in my front arc, which only actually accentuates the point , rather than counters it. Thankyou.

Secondly, the only other point you're weak on is squadron commands, but hey, you brought all of those imperial rogues , so are they really laughing?

Two can play the BS game. I would caution you, however - that I doubt you will find someone more full of s*** than I am

If I were designing something in the medium department - then I wouldn't have a problem with the Front Die layout of this, on its own ... The fact that its backing up with significant side arcs is an issue - the overall die layout is an issue.

If I were aiming for 80 odd points for a Speed 3 boat, otherwise as presented above, with the Imperial lineage and design philosophy to consider...

I'd probably scour 3 reds from each side arc completely... Perhaps replace them with a single blue, so the side arcs are each Blue-Blue. Even Blue-Blue the Rear Arc, too...

That way, it can maintain its front arc. It also becomes more along the lines of a Pocket-ISD at that point - it still wants to Gunnery Team Double up on targets, but its speed and firepower is what is going to carry the day there... Shoot and Scoot. It could perhaps even have a second variant with a double blue AA to flak away at that point as well.

That probably gives a solid-ish baseline. And is probably worth around 80 points... Faster than Interdictor, heftier front arc, balanced by weaker side arcs, still a full suite of offensive/defensive and gunnery....

But then I get crazy, and I'd do something like, Remove the Officer Slot. Because no-other ship has that. Or strip it of its Offensive Retrofit slot, just to keep Boarding Engineers/Teams away from it... Because you never know...

Spitballing Ideas... but I would prefer to lowball and have something that is too expensive and be able to fix it up with extra stuff, rather than have to cut back form a design philosophy.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Secondly, the only other point you're weak on is squadron commands, but hey, you brought all of those imperial rogues ,

[snip]

Spitballing Ideas... but I would prefer to lowball and have something that is too expensive and be able to fix it up with extra stuff, rather than have to cut back form a design philosophy.

To the first part, the only Imperial Rogue seeing large amounts of play would be the deci. Out of Boba and the Firespray, Iggy and the Aggressor, and Bossk and the dump truck, Bossk sees some play in Ruthless Strategists, but that is about it.

To the second, you mean every single Imperial ship so far?

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Paid 38 points and lose the ability to shoot anything in my front arc, which only actually accentuates the point , rather than counters it. Thankyou.

Right, because in an arkbar build there definitely won't be another ship with an already disgusting side arc ready to light up whoever tries this, say..... IDK... an MC30... Oh look he's close range too... GG imperial player.... you're a cloud of pink mist....

I really think they would be.... 'Cause bring all the rogues and aces I want all it takes is 1 intel, which again...rebels, so it's not like that never happens, and this things eating dice... Not to mention dumping points into imperial expensive *** rogues would mean the rest of my fleet would be flotillas. or maybe a couple of kittens... super powerful fleet that...


Honestly the most I think is "reasonable" to chop off this would be 1 red from both sides, and lose the Offensive retro slot. Even then... I really believe this ship would be just fine.

2 minutes ago, ianediger said:

To the first part, the only Imperial Rogue seeing large amounts of play would be the deci. Out of Boba and the Firespray, Iggy and the Aggressor, and Bossk and the dump truck, Bossk sees some play in Ruthless Strategists, but that is about it.

To the second, you mean every single Imperial ship so far?

I've always maintained that part of the Problem is people have solutions, they just refuse to use them. They refuse to find the reason why things are what they are, and are costed as what they are. Rather than wistfully wishing, concentrating on using ever bit and piece available... The Imperials have more than Decimators available to them as Rogues, but its a choice to not take them. I mean, at least the Imperials have the choice of more than 1 type of Rogue.

There will be situations where the other Squadrons are preferential to Decimators (for one, a Single Firespray to rear-arc cover is better than a Deci, since its not Heavy).

But it has to suit the design philosopy of the list entirely.

If you had nothing but Pizza-Slice Jousters, you would of course be leaning heavily on Rogue Squadrons - and probably things like the Aggressor, since you're already confident on your Ships to output damage, so you need something to be scouring those bomber squadrons...

Is it universally applicable ? No.

But I've had Slow-Rolling Fleets with YV-666s that have punted enemy squadrons left/right/center effectively, because it took most of a bomber squadron to get through one of them.

But straight up - If you believe that there is a grand conspiracy to immediately and irrevocably over-cost every Imperial ship just because they're Imperial, then we're never going to see the light of design day, and honestly, you should probably not play, since it'll always be unfair to you.

3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Honestly the most I think is "reasonable" to chop off this would be 1 red from both sides, and lose the Offensive retro slot. Even then... I really believe this ship would be just fine.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

I still think it'd be an undercosted wonder at that point.

And rather. It'd still be an Awesome-of-All-Trades (but squadrons)... Which even if it is efficent, and good, is boring .

That's at least where my Games Design education has me at...

14 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Nothing because my commander already lets me slap 2 dice onto both my side arcs.... and it effects all my ships... The imperials don't have that...

Yes, and he costs the most we have. Furthermore, you just explained the way to fight him . Get in his front and then he can't add in extra dice. Ackbar takes what's good in the remarkably average Assault Frigate and then makes it more good. You need to fight it the same way as any other AFII.

10 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

So the MC30? lol

The MC30 has been good for a long time (since it dropped?), and isn't a Medium base. It's defense token suite (no brace, only evades and redirects) and generally low health (same as a CR90, less than a Nebulon, Pelta, or Frigate) is what keeps it fair for the cost. If you use Sato's ability to throw long range black dice, you aren't throwing 3 black dice at close, along with 2 more dice of whatever color you want/change (assuming you change the 2 red to something else, of course).

10 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

exactly... heap that thing into a dumpster and light it on fire... lol

I jest, but I hate speed 2... even with d-caps, it's just too slow.... the benefit of taking a Vic II would be the Ion slot... rerolls, Op, Nks the lot...

So the VSD-II costs MORE to add on MORE upgrades? The point OF the VSD is that it's slow. It follows up your faster ships as an artillery piece, finishing off whatever is damaged by them already. You can't have better basic attacks and cost less than a VSD. For 9 points, I can add Spinal Turbolasers to your design. I paid 89 points for a 5 red dice front. I can get that with no other ship possible for that cost, period, and red dice CAN spike, you have to take that into account. With your design, you could put TRCs on there and navigate every turn. Wee, here comes 4 red dice with guaranteed damage and I'm speed 3 so i'm chasing you down! What's stopping you from using Needa to replace the Brace so you have a speed 3 hull 6 TRCR90 with substantially more health and the ability to survive most threats. If it can't survive them, it runs away from them and doesn't die.

6 minutes ago, ianediger said:

To the second, you mean every single Imperial ship so far?

I get that you're sad that the ISD costs so much, but it's also the most hull, the most shields, and the only ship available with Motti-in-faction along with Reinforced Blast Doors. For effectively 17 health, it BETTER cost a lot. Plus put Leading Shots on an ISD-II, and you can murder so many things at Medium Range. I can hear your complaints about the VSD-II and not being well costed.... if DCaps weren't coming out this upcoming wave. They help fix a lot of the issues there.

23 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

I still think it'd be an undercosted wonder at that point.

And rather. It'd still be an Awesome-of-All-Trades (but squadrons)... Which even if it is efficent, and good, is boring .

That's at least where my Games Design education has me at...

Okay but here's what I don't get.... so you're saying my pizza slice is just too costly at 8 points over a AFB and yet the design for the AFA... is 9 points more expensive and adds nearly the same amount of dice...




I count
+3 blues (12 points as quoted by you)
-1 squad (must be worth -3)
=+9 points

On mine I've added

+2 reds (+10 as quoted by you)
+2blues (+8 as quoted by you )
-2 squad (-6 as referenced from above)
-1 eng ( x)
-1shield(y)
=+8 points

At worst were looking at a =/- of what, 2 points? Presuming engineering and shields aren't fractions, 0s, or negatives...

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

So you made a better VSD-II for cheaper. Yeah, I don't think that's really a fair ship. It costs 5 points less for a better forward and side attacks, significantly better speed, better shielding, a defense token suite with an Evade, and a free defensive retrofit. You took most of what you wanted off an ISD and put it on a VSD for the cost of a VSD. Yes, it's only 6 health, but with the existence of Motti or Jerry, it's not fair to be able to bring this. Your concessions for making it weaker seem to be that you reduced the ability to command squadrons and gave it 1 less point of Engineering. In the realm of the Quasar existing now, that's not a downside for the squadrons, and with the Engineering, you have Motti still around, and Gozantis can pass Engineering tokens easily. Your concessions aren't ENOUGH, is what I'm saying.
Look at it another way. What if you made a Rebel ship that would be super great for Sato to use or something like that, but you didn't factor Ackbar or Mothma into it? That'd get pretty broken with them, and THAT'S why I have issues with this.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

*Snip*
Also, I really should have a rule where I don't comment on these sorts of threads.

In fact, I'll put that in place now...

1 hour ago, ninclouse2000 said:

That would be a really cool ship but 80 points is too cheap. I would say a ship with those stats should be about 95 points.

48 minutes ago, geek19 said:

You also really can't compare ships at similar price points, as they have different roles, commanders, officers/upgrades, etc. The CR90 and Raider are both 44(ish) points. The Raider wants to fight in close, the CR90A wants to lob turbolasers from range. The VSD is speed 2, the AF is speed 3. They have different jobs. The Rebels also don't have Motti, who turns this into a better VSD (8 health total). The downside of the VSD is it's turning ability; that's half the design behind it. You can't just improve both its firepower output AND turning and then make it cost LESS than a VSD-II for barely any downgrade. Yes, it can't push squadrons. That's not a stupendous downside, nor reducing its engineering by 1 either. Why does this ship have a potential speed-3? How is THAT fair? Look at it this way: if this ship existed, what reason would you ever have for taking a VSD-II again?

And because i ignored it earlier, what's wrong with the VSD-II now that DCaps exist?

47 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm going to say it now. I won't abide lazy-***-games-design-sarcasm.

So here's my Rant, in the best of intentions, of course:

Before you ***** about it, look at the design from the other side...

As a Rebel Player ... How much would you pay to SLAP THAT FRONT ARC ON AN ASSAULT FRIGATE.

Because we already know roughly how many points those Dice are worth....

... Reds seemingly set you back roughly 5 points a Pop... Potentially with a -1 point deduction for the Rear arc.

... Blues are 4 a Pop.

You've added almost 20 points of Dice alone .

Then expected to get 10 points of discount out of 1 Shield, 1 engineering, and 2 Squadron....

... Its an even worse comparison when you compare to the AFMK-IIA. Which is more expensive than This.

Yes, you should have a Speed 3 Medium Combat Ship... I don't deny or begrudge that.. But pick a capability to be good at , , rather than "everything".

Because, for example - the AFMK-II still suffers from the "GET IN ITS FRONT ARC AND YOU'RE LAUGHING" Syndrome - What Weakness does the Pizza Slice have in comparison.

34 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

The main issue is the comparison to the assault frigate rather than

The MC80 Liberty.... that 103pt ship..

31 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Paid 38 points and lose the ability to shoot anything in my front arc, which only actually accentuates the point , rather than counters it. Thankyou.

Secondly, the only other point you're weak on is squadron commands, but hey, you brought all of those imperial rogues , so are they really laughing?

Two can play the BS game. I would caution you, however - that I doubt you will find someone more full of s*** than I am

If I were designing something in the medium department - then I wouldn't have a problem with the Front Die layout of this, on its own ... The fact that its backing up with significant side arcs is an issue - the overall die layout is an issue.

If I were aiming for 80 odd points for a Speed 3 boat, otherwise as presented above, with the Imperial lineage and design philosophy to consider...

I'd probably scour 3 reds from each side arc completely... Perhaps replace them with a single blue, so the side arcs are each Blue-Blue. Even Blue-Blue the Rear Arc, too...

That way, it can maintain its front arc. It also becomes more along the lines of a Pocket-ISD at that point - it still wants to Gunnery Team Double up on targets, but its speed and firepower is what is going to carry the day there... Shoot and Scoot. It could perhaps even have a second variant with a double blue AA to flak away at that point as well.

That probably gives a solid-ish baseline. And is probably worth around 80 points... Faster than Interdictor, heftier front arc, balanced by weaker side arcs, still a full suite of offensive/defensive and gunnery....

But then I get crazy, and I'd do something like, Remove the Officer Slot. Because no-other ship has that. Or strip it of its Offensive Retrofit slot, just to keep Boarding Engineers/Teams away from it... Because you never know...

Spitballing Ideas... but I would prefer to lowball and have something that is too expensive and be able to fix it up with extra stuff, rather than have to cut back form a design philosophy.

16 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I've always maintained that part of the Problem is people have solutions, they just refuse to use them. They refuse to find the reason why things are what they are, and are costed as what they are. Rather than wistfully wishing, concentrating on using ever bit and piece available... The Imperials have more than Decimators available to them as Rogues, but its a choice to not take them. I mean, at least the Imperials have the choice of more than 1 type of Rogue.

There will be situations where the other Squadrons are preferential to Decimators (for one, a Single Firespray to rear-arc cover is better than a Deci, since its not Heavy).

But it has to suit the design philosopy of the list entirely.

If you had nothing but Pizza-Slice Jousters, you would of course be leaning heavily on Rogue Squadrons - and probably things like the Aggressor, since you're already confident on your Ships to output damage, so you need something to be scouring those bomber squadrons...

Is it universally applicable ? No.

But I've had Slow-Rolling Fleets with YV-666s that have punted enemy squadrons left/right/center effectively, because it took most of a bomber squadron to get through one of them.

But straight up - If you believe that there is a grand conspiracy to immediately and irrevocably over-cost every Imperial ship just because they're Imperial, then we're never going to see the light of design day, and honestly, you should probably not play, since it'll always be unfair to you.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

I still think it'd be an undercosted wonder at that point.

And rather. It'd still be an Awesome-of-All-Trades (but squadrons)... Which even if it is efficent, and good, is boring .

That's at least where my Games Design education has me at...

11 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Yes, and he costs the most we have. Furthermore, you just explained the way to fight him . Get in his front and then he can't add in extra dice. Ackbar takes what's good in the remarkably average Assault Frigate and then makes it more good. You need to fight it the same way as any other AFII.

The MC30 has been good for a long time (since it dropped?), and isn't a Medium base. It's defense token suite (no brace, only evades and redirects) and generally low health (same as a CR90, less than a Nebulon, Pelta, or Frigate) is what keeps it fair for the cost. If you use Sato's ability to throw long range black dice, you aren't throwing 3 black dice at close, along with 2 more dice of whatever color you want/change (assuming you change the 2 red to something else, of course).

So the VSD-II costs MORE to add on MORE upgrades? The point OF the VSD is that it's slow. It follows up your faster ships as an artillery piece, finishing off whatever is damaged by them already. You can't have better basic attacks and cost less than a VSD. For 9 points, I can add Spinal Turbolasers to your design. I paid 89 points for a 5 red dice front. I can get that with no other ship possible for that cost, period, and red dice CAN spike, you have to take that into account. With your design, you could put TRCs on there and navigate every turn. Wee, here comes 4 red dice with guaranteed damage and I'm speed 3 so i'm chasing you down! What's stopping you from using Needa to replace the Brace so you have a speed 3 hull 6 TRCR90 with substantially more health and the ability to survive most threats. If it can't survive them, it runs away from them and doesn't die.

I get that you're sad that the ISD costs so much, but it's also the most hull, the most shields, and the only ship available with Motti-in-faction along with Reinforced Blast Doors. For effectively 17 health, it BETTER cost a lot. Plus put Leading Shots on an ISD-II, and you can murder so many things at Medium Range. I can hear your complaints about the VSD-II and not being well costed.... if DCaps weren't coming out this upcoming wave. They help fix a lot of the issues there.

Freakin' heck, I'm out of likes AGAIN . Sheesh. . . well anyway, let this suffice for now, when I get likes I'll give 'em for real. . .