On 6/5/2017 at 0:34 PM, Vineheart01 said:

Being able to physically place the models and maneuver afterwords are two different things.

You can physically place quite a lot of stuff in the deployment zone. Problem is if theyre all butted up on each other (or worse yet, directly behind each other) they cant really pull off any tricky maneuvers or abuse certain initiative shenanigans because now they got friendlies in the way to think about.

Yep, at a certain point increasing the size of the deployment area is going to be necessary as well. Moving to a 4 foot deep table could facilitate this somewhat. Luckily most gaming venues will have this.

12 hours ago, eilif said:

Yep, at a certain point increasing the size of the deployment area is going to be necessary as well. Moving to a 4 foot deep table could facilitate this somewhat. Luckily most gaming venues will have this.

i find the reason they recommend a 3x6 is so you have space off mat for the cards n such. Ive noticed every game that uses the card mechanic at all doesnt use a 4ft deep board. It gives each player a 6" area for their stuff, considering most places have tables set up for 40k already

On 6/7/2017 at 8:51 AM, Vineheart01 said:

i find the reason they recommend a 3x6 is so you have space off mat for the cards n such. Ive noticed every game that uses the card mechanic at all doesnt use a 4ft deep board. It gives each player a 6" area for their stuff, considering most places have tables set up for 40k already

I think you're absolutey correct. 3 deep seems fine for standard games.

I just think it's also pretty clear that if you want to dramatically increase the size of the game, you're going to need that extra foot of space for deployment and maneuver.

Not so clear to me.

4 hours ago, eilif said:

I think you're absolutey correct. 3 deep seems fine for standard games.

I just think it's also pretty clear that if you want to dramatically increase the size of the game, you're going to need that extra foot of space for deployment and maneuver.

I don't see what that extra foot really gets you, except one more turn spent dialling in March for everyone.

By the time we've increased the points and the size we start needing to increase the turn limit, too.

Let's increase the turns to 10

On 6/13/2017 at 5:24 PM, Tvayumat said:

I don't see what that extra foot really gets you, except one more turn spent dialling in March for everyone.

By the time we've increased the points and the size we start needing to increase the turn limit, too.

More room to deploy and it allows you to add more terrain while maintaining room for maneuver.

41 minutes ago, eilif said:

More room to deploy and it allows you to add more terrain while maintaining room for maneuver.

And, like I said, one more turn spent marching forward.

Most of my games come down to the wire on turn 8. If you increase the board size you almost HAVE to increase the turn limit.

This just reinforces my whole point: Runewars is balanced at 6x3, 200 pts, 8 turns. At anything more, it's not.

That's cool. The L2P guide specifically tells you to play however you want for casual games, but the competitive game setup is not going to change.

How would you like to guarantee the 200 points bit @Tvayumat , as that is kind of a bold, and unsupported statement (the other 2, size and turns, quite reasonable though). We've got locals here who think a low starting point makes sense, to not scare away buy ins by providing something readily attainable. AKA help sticker shock, it is a reasonable posit.

2 hours ago, Darthain said:

How would you like to guarantee the 200 points bit @Tvayumat , as that is kind of a bold, and unsupported statement (the other 2, size and turns, quite reasonable though). We've got locals here who think a low starting point makes sense, to not scare away buy ins by providing something readily attainable. AKA help sticker shock, it is a reasonable posit.

It's the standard game size. What other support does such a statement need?

*snip*

ANY suggestion that the official pts size will/may increase is complete supposition. Stating that the pts size is 200 and will likely remain 200 is supported by every single written document presently supplied with the core game.

EDIT: As noted, the announcement of the increase to 400 pts in Armada came after the core set released and OP kits went out. Thanks to @Drasnighta for the correction. Post amended to reflect this.

53 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

People who bring up the Armada pts increase don't seem to remember that the Armada Core Set L2P guide literally and explicitly stated their intent to raise the points value as expansions increase.

It, um. Doesn't. Sorry.

It does have this:

To build standard 300 point fleets, you will need additional ships, squadrons, and upgrades to expand your customization options. These additional components are sold separately in expansion packs.

The Rulebook of course, adds this in the Fleet Building Section:

• The standard fleet point total is 300 points. If playing with just the core set, the recommended fleet point total is 180

Of course, what that doesn't get across is that after that, it was actually some of the first Tournament Outlines that mentioned 400 around the time of the Massing of Sullust event. It specifically stated that, at that time, "The Game would become 400 points and would remain that way for the foreseeable future."

Thank you Dras, saves me a lot of effort. Your categorical knowledge of Armada is a boon to us all.

There is no room for more than 200 points, In most of my games the deployment is nearly full. Several of my games have turned into conga lines and rugby scrums. 2 large pieces of terrain and 1 small, leaves you with only 2 viable fighting lanes most of the time..

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

It, um. Doesn't. Sorry.

It does have this:

To build standard 300 point fleets, you will need additional ships, squadrons, and upgrades to expand your customization options. These additional components are sold separately in expansion packs.

The Rulebook of course, adds this in the Fleet Building Section:

• The standard fleet point total is 300 points. If playing with just the core set, the recommended fleet point total is 180

Of course, what that doesn't get across is that after that, it was actually some of the first Tournament Outlines that mentioned 400 around the time of the Massing of Sullust event. It specifically stated that, at that time, "The Game would become 400 points and would remain that way for the foreseeable future."

Thank you for the correction, Dras. I couldn't remember offhand and sold my Armada stuff a while back. I did, however, remember very specifically that we knew almost immediately the point size was going to be increased. I probably mentally swapped 180/300 with 300/400.

Armada got off to a rocky, largely incomplete start, with the base game being fairly stale until we got several waves of release, and the meta being largely dominated by Demolisher lists until Massing at Sullust. I know some people have complained about this with the Runewars release, but having played both games extensively at prior to the first few expansion waves, Runewars is a much more complete experience at launch than Armada was, with the Massing at Sullust release opening the game up in a huge way.

Armada didn't even release with all the categories of ship. They had Small and Medium, with rules for Large, but nothing that size until MoS, whereas there are no categories or size of announced model in the RMG Core Set that aren't included in the box.

There is nothing to suggest that a points increase is the intent for Runewars on a competitive level. In fact, what few OP kits we do have outline that 200 pts is intended to be the full game size, with the latest kit even suggesting that it is an ideal method to bring players from the suggested start size up to full size armies.

In any case, I reiterate: My statement was far from unsupported. It's supported by all the current documentation for Runewars.

The game plays wonderfully at 200 pts, and if you really want to play it at 300, 400, 500, 1000, guess what? You can.

Of course Demo was dominant in wave 1. The imperials only had 2 ship options.

Just now, TallGiraffe said:

Of course Demo was dominant in wave 1. The imperials only had 2 ship options.

Precisely my point.

11 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

There is nothing to suggest that a points increase is the intent for Runewars on a competitive level. In fact, what few OP kits we do have outline that 200 pts is intended to be the full game size, with the latest kit even suggesting that it is an ideal method to bring players from the suggested start size up to full size armies.

In any case, I reiterate: My statement was far from unsupported. It's supported by all the current documentation for Runewars.

You see the problem is, there is also nothing to suggest that points won't increase. So citing precedence, it could just as easily go either way. I'm not vested in any outcome, just interested in thoughts on the matter. So yes, it is currently unsupported (and even a draft of OP rules can be changed at a later date). If they will ever up it, it will likely be after uthuk and everyone has another unit or 2, not right away.

I agree.

There's no calling of it either way. It'll either happen, or it won't, and no-one bar NDA'd playtesters will be any of the Wiser until it happens

I mean, I don't play Runewars, and the Sentry Box got shorted on a bunch of their Wave order, so I havn't even seen it routinely played yet... So I can't comment on the actualy efficacy of an extension in size, but I can give the details for the Armada precedent.

Armada, there was no calling in Tournament Kits until after Sullust was Spoiled - then it was placed in the Tournament Rules. As stated, the line said "400 Points will become the tournament standard for the forseeable future."

When the Tournament Rules were changed over for the All-Encompassing Tournament Regulations (aka, single set, Copya/Pasta between Game systems), it was merely amended to state 400 Points there.

As it is, the only place that 400 Points is written for Armada is in the Tournament Regulations. The Rulebook still calls it a 300pt Game, after all

So indeed, the first set of Tournament Kits don't themselves state the size - they say "legal fleet". WHich at the time, was 300. The battles themselves, at sullust, were 300 points, unless you got to the Final game. That final game was 400, so it was intended, immediately, for you to basically take your existing fleet, and try to Whack the large ship into it with a minimum of removal fuss - thus birthing the 400pt Game.

Therefore, as I see it, the introduction of the Large Ships (and the fact they were all 100+ Plus, in a 300pt game, where 1/3rd of your fleet could be Squadrons) were the actual impetus for it - they were always Planned to happen, as they were referenced (although size-incorrectly :D) in the rulebook, the plan may have been there...

Runewars, I feel, Would have to be ready to add something similarly "Colossal" Sized. A Big expensive single bruiser with a big model to be a centerpiece of an army, and pointed ot be a big chunk (75+ of 200) of the Army itself, necessitating an expansion so you can feel free to "add" them to your existing force and not lose anything. Now, again, that plan may be there, but because of the Runewars Tray System, its not really "necessary" to add any specialist rules re: Tray size for it.. (If its a singular Hugeass Model that only has a single tray frontage, well, the core rules still apply... If its a hugeass model that has multiple trays in size but a special rule to state that you don't remove trays of wounds - well, that still conforms to a tiny amendment of the core rules).... So rather, if it weren't for Armada needingto dictate the size of the Bases (small, medium, large), and the fact that ships can be referred to as Small, Medium or Large, I doubt we'd hav known Large Ships as their own were actually coming at any point... I mean, sure, We'd have GUESSED it, since the ISD wasn't in the Core Box - but we wouldn't have known .

In Short:

No clue if it'll happen here. I don't think there's any indication that's written either way, supporting for or against. Its a total mystery.

If that's happening, its after all 4 Postered Races are out and people are playable with them, I feel... There's no point giving one or two armies something hugely awesome and leaving the others out because they're behind - you'd want them left out only because its "thematic" to do so, I feel.

I agree that we'll only see increased points if we get large units that cost a lot (Chaos Lord, Barrow Wyrm, Siege Golem, Forest Guardian). My issue with that, is when you increase the points levels to accommodate those large units, you still leave the option of someone sending out tons of small units instead. With the current deployment rules, you can't even fit that many small units into your deployment zone. So now you're forcing people to buy and include these larger units.

[Disclaimer: I haven't actually tried fitting 300-points of units into a standard deployment zone, so maybe it's easier than it sounds, but I have heard people say that it's a very tight fit and decreases your ability to strategically place your troops since it's more important to get them to fit than to have them facing at the perfect, odd angles.

4 hours ago, Darthain said:

You see the problem is, there is also nothing to suggest that points won't increase.

In Armada which did see a points increase FFG was very upfront about the fact that the points were going to increase from 180 to 300 to 400. The 180 to 300 increase is mentioned in the rulebook and the 400 point level was mentioned in articles leading up to the wave 2 announcement.

I feel like if there were a point increase we would be hearing rumblings about it.

53 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I agree that we'll only see increased points if we get large units that cost a lot (Chaos Lord, Barrow Wyrm, Siege Golem, Forest Guardian). My issue with that, is when you increase the points levels to accommodate those large units, you still leave the option of someone sending out tons of small units instead. With the current deployment rules, you can't even fit that many small units into your deployment zone. So now you're forcing people to buy and include these larger units.

[Disclaimer: I haven't actually tried fitting 300-points of units into a standard deployment zone, so maybe it's easier than it sounds, but I have heard people say that it's a very tight fit and decreases your ability to strategically place your troops since it's more important to get them to fit than to have them facing at the perfect, odd angles.

Bring on dragons and such, or whatever the lore equivalents are. I'd love me some multitray models. I think I see a Roc in pictures? That would be slick.

44 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

I feel like if there were a point increase we would be hearing rumblings about it.

... In articles leading up to an expansion that warrants it.

Which I don't think is on the cards for Runewars yet.

Maybe in a few month's time, when we've got a full whack of Elves and a smattering of badguys in the works.

26 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In articles leading up to an expansion that warrants it.

That was my point. There isnt an article telling people to plan for a point increase.

3 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

That was my point. There isnt an article telling people to plan for a point increase.

Yep.

But that also doesn't account for the potential answer of "Not yet.", either.

We went through 2 Seasonal Kits of Armada, with the only hint of soemthing "more" coming being the Large Ship base description in the Rulebook... That was a chunk of time with no actual word to account for a Points Increase, either.

I think the Parallels are basically, "Once everyone has Wave 1 Down, we can shake up in Wave 2."

- Wave 1 is almost down for the Undead and Humies... Wave 1 is going to drop almost all at once for the Elves... Once everyone has their Wave 1, that is when you're likely to see the "We're Going Bigger." Announce.

That encourages people who have hit their limit to grow.

But again, all total subjection and Guesswork... They may never go bigger. Runewars does have a different marketing system than everything else... There is so much in Runewars that I wish Armada was getting, for example (Fundamentals Kit, anyone?)...

So it is Guesswork... Only FFG has the actual Correct Answer, and they'll sit on it