2 minutes ago, Foxtrot Four said:

65 Wat?

That's... I'm not sure that's right, now I don't read the articles as often as I should I'll admit, but I thought that winning the battle claimed the ring, and THEN the ring effect goes off. That's how I saw it at least, if ring effects go off at the reaction to engage speed then Pilgrimage is going to be DOPE.

I believe the vaguely worded turn order was conflict over, break province (If occurred), claim ring and effect.

Pilgrimage was already pretty powerful, making whatever ring chosen worthless for it's ability was good.

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

I believe the vaguely worded turn order was conflict over, break province (If occurred), claim ring and effect.

Pilgrimage was already pretty powerful, making whatever ring chosen worthless for it's ability was good.

Oooooh, I see, so battle resolution bows everyone AFTER you claim the ring. I see what your saying. But I still disagree because at that point what's the purpose of Every claiming water as the first engagement? Let alone claiming it at all really, besides the bowing someone with no fate on them. Which is nice, don't get me wrong, but if that is the method of the madness I think Water is easily the weakest ring and probably needs a tweak. In my opinion at least.

Who are you going to straighten? the "correct" answer is "someone who defended your provinces, straighten him so he can swing back." but you've already attacked. You've dedicated resources to defending, and attacking. straightening someone who defended is nice, but the only purpose it serves is to allow them to defend again. Which is nice, don't get me wrong but if your first player and you swing, never claim water, unless you want to hate draft it. I mean... I get it, there's a lot to ring claiming sequence, not only as a form of denial from your opponent but what you want from the rings as well, but I still think that if this is the way it works Water is just too weak.

but I digress, if water doesn't work the way I think it did then Wandering Ronin might not be an auto-include.

5 minutes ago, Foxtrot Four said:

Oooooh, I see, so battle resolution bows everyone AFTER you claim the ring. I see what your saying. But I still disagree because at that point what's the purpose of Every claiming water as the first engagement? Let alone claiming it at all really, besides the bowing someone with no fate on them. Which is nice, don't get me wrong, but if that is the method of the madness I think Water is easily the weakest ring and probably needs a tweak. In my opinion at least.

Who are you going to straighten? the "correct" answer is "someone who defended your provinces, straighten him so he can swing back." but you've already attacked. You've dedicated resources to defending, and attacking. straightening someone who defended is nice, but the only purpose it serves is to allow them to defend again. Which is nice, don't get me wrong but if your first player and you swing, never claim water, unless you want to hate draft it. I mean... I get it, there's a lot to ring claiming sequence, not only as a form of denial from your opponent but what you want from the rings as well, but I still think that if this is the way it works Water is just too weak.

but I digress, if water doesn't work the way I think it did then Wandering Ronin might not be an auto-include.

I disagree on water. You're point about it being pointless for first battle is true. But as a second player, unbowing the guys you just used to defend against an attack doesn't just free them up for a second defend, but also a second attack. You're just thinking as first player.

Earth is a lot weaker, imo. draw is a little nice, and random discard is very meh. It's very much a "I don't really have any need for the other rings and this effect will do."

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

I disagree on water. You're point about it being pointless for first battle is true. But as a second player, unbowing the guys you just used to defend against an attack doesn't just free them up for a second defend, but also a second attack. You're just thinking as first player.

Have you playtested at all? Me and the group are going to play test all Sunday afternoon to see just how many bodies we can field and for how long they stay. Because there's just too much speculation on our end to really grasp how much resources we're dedicating to attacking and defending y'know? I just feel like turn 1, there will be maybe 1 attack for each player. Turn 2, MAYBE 2 attacks each player, and then Turn 3 is a wild card and from then on the variables diverge infinitely. So hopefully me and the inquisition will have a much better grasp on how things are played. I know there are a lot of players who have started playtesting Crane vs. Crane ever since the article came out. So hopefully we can speak with more authority on this later. But as it stands now, I don't think I can speculate unaligned dynasty auto-includes.

1 minute ago, Foxtrot Four said:

Have you playtested at all? Me and the group are going to play test all Sunday afternoon to see just how many bodies we can field and for how long they stay. Because there's just too much speculation on our end to really grasp how much resources we're dedicating to attacking and defending y'know? I just feel like turn 1, there will be maybe 1 attack for each player. Turn 2, MAYBE 2 attacks each player, and then Turn 3 is a wild card and from then on the variables diverge infinitely. So hopefully me and the inquisition will have a much better grasp on how things are played. I know there are a lot of players who have started playtesting Crane vs. Crane ever since the article came out. So hopefully we can speak with more authority on this later. But as it stands now, I don't think I can speculate unaligned dynasty auto-includes.

I have and i don't feel the only auto-include in the neutral cards are conflict. Cloud the mind or Fine Katana really. They're solid baseline cards. Everything else feels situational. I doubt the lion are going to grab either Ronin or Otomo Courtier. But we also don't know the full set of Neutral cards. Ronin is just too...unbalanced to be a good mainstay card.

2 hours ago, RandomJC said:

I have and i don't feel the only auto-include in the neutral cards are conflict. Cloud the mind or Fine Katana really. They're solid baseline cards. Everything else feels situational. I doubt the lion are going to grab either Ronin or Otomo Courtier. But we also don't know the full set of Neutral cards. Ronin is just too...unbalanced to be a good mainstay card.

I feel Otomo Courtier might see some play in low curve Lion deck(not playing characters with cost 4 or higher, maybe with 1 exception) just because she is a 1 cost character that can leverage your Staging Ground. On the other hand she obviously isn't a bushi.

I agree on Ronin.

Fine Katana is really solid. I think it will be in a lot of decks. Can last multiple rounds, immune to the cancel we have seen (out of crane), helps with duelling as well as province busting, free cards are super valuable. I think it is maybe more of a staple than Banzai.

1 minute ago, BordOne said:

I feel Otomo Courtier might see some play in low curve Lion deck(not playing characters with cost 4 or higher, maybe with 1 exception) just because she is a 1 cost character that can leverage your Staging Ground. On the other hand she obviously isn't a bushi.

Worse than not being a bushi, she's a - in mil. In a heavy Mil deck that's a hard card to justify. Venerable historian is a better version in some ways, especially since Lion is a high honor clan.

1 minute ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Fine Katana is really solid. I think it will be in a lot of decks. Can last multiple rounds, immune to the cancel we have seen (out of crane), helps with duelling as well as province busting, free cards are super valuable. I think it is maybe more of a staple than Banzai.

Banzai is a card that looks really good right now with such a low neutral card pool, but even then I'd rather have Fine Katana, or splash Dragon for Ancestral Daisho, just for more consistent card boosts, and yes Daisho is 1fate, but bouncing back to your hand for repeat play is very worth that fate.

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

Worse than not being a bushi, she's a - in mil. In a heavy Mil deck that's a hard card to justify. Venerable historian is a better version in some ways, especially since Lion is a high honor clan.

Hmm I dunno. The Lion might be heavy military deck but I don't see it as a strength. Just by the nature of how conflicts work you always want to achieve balance in your military and political strenght, otherwise you risk losing unnecesary rings and even provinces. Because of that I see Otomo Courtier as more beneficial for Lion than 2 military - politics blank guy would be. On the other hand she would be great if she was a 0 military.

Venerable historian is obviously a much better card but I could see both of them being played hand in hand.

6 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Hmm I dunno. The Lion might be heavy military deck but I don't see it as a strength. Just by the nature of how conflicts work you always want to achieve balance in your military and political strenght, otherwise you risk losing unnecesary rings and even provinces. Because of that I see Otomo Courtier as more beneficial for Lion than 2 military - politics blank guy would be. On the other hand she would be great if she was a 0 military.

Venerable historian is obviously a much better card but I could see both of them being played hand in hand.

I bet we'd get better cheap pols in the neutral set. And I don't know any Lion cards that have a - pol. Obstinate Recruit has a 0 pol, and a 0 cost, which for me is better than Otomo.

Correction, you mean Matsu Beserker, 1 cost, 3/-. I like him better than Otomo though.

Also, it's easy to forget, but while Lion does have a lot of 2/3 pol guys, just their military is that insane. They aren't that weak to a politics front from anyone besides Crane, with their insane pol, and maybe Scorpion.

13 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I bet we'd get better cheap pols in the neutral set. And I don't know any Lion cards that have a - pol. Obstinate Recruit has a 0 pol, and a 0 cost, which for me is better than Otomo.

Of course Recruit is much better than Otomo. However if you want to build a deck that has a lot of low cost characters you need to compromise(since you have a limited number of copies of any given card). Even though there are characters that are strictly better than this one you might still consider putting it into your deck. Of course if there are better cheap neutral characters revealed I doubt Otomo Courtier will find home anywhere :>

The dash in military also speaks very much to the detriment of it, since Lion already has some dash characters, and overloading on them can make your deck very "luck of draw" dependent.

Edit: Matsu Berserker is better I was speaking about a hypothetical neutral 2/- guy.

9 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Of course Recruit is much better than Otomo. However if you want to build a deck that has a lot of low cost characters you need to compromise(since you have a limited number of copies of any given card). Even though there are characters that are strictly better than this one you might still consider putting it into your deck. Of course if there are better cheap neutral characters revealed I doubt Otomo Courtier will find home anywhere :>

The dash in military also speaks very much to the detriment of it, since Lion already has some dash characters, and overloading on them can make your deck very "luck of draw" dependent.

Edit: Matsu Berserker is better I was speaking about a hypothetical neutral 2/- guy.

There most certainly will be other cheap neutral's revealed, so far it's been Otomo and Ronin, which may be the high/low of the scale. Otomo doesn't shore up the pol weakness that much, and is possible to not even be able to do a pol attack for a second swing. I feel it works better as a supplement to an already pol deck, than as a way of shoring up a pol weakness.

Many people seem to be caught up by Ring of Water not being able to unbow your character right after they become bowed by battle resolution and are skipping over the fact that RoW also can be used to bow someone without any fate on them. That's a pretty big deal and very important to keep in mind when considering how you spend your fate when buying characters, especially when going second.

Also keep in mind that the Ring of Water can be used to unbow characters that became bowed during the the first conflict, specifically characters that used their "bow for effect" abilities from home.

There may also be a scenario in which you will want to go after RoW as the first ring simply to prevent your opponent from being able to defend and then attack later with their stongest character.

2 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Fine Katana is really solid. I think it will be in a lot of decks. Can last multiple rounds, immune to the cancel we have seen (out of crane), helps with duelling as well as province busting, free cards are super valuable. I think it is maybe more of a staple than Banzai.

I think if we see too many people following this philosophy, we'll see the Miya earthbender showing up and moving your katana to the ikoma -pol character.

Personally, I think it's less "either/or" and more "BOTH" right now.

2 hours ago, profparm said:

I think if we see too many people following this philosophy, we'll see the Miya earthbender showing up and moving your katana to the ikoma -pol character.

Personally, I think it's less "either/or" and more "BOTH" right now.

With what we have seen so far, I fully expect to see that Miya in absolutely everything for the first little while. It's so versatile.

7 hours ago, Foxtrot Four said:

Have you playtested at all? Me and the group are going to play test all Sunday afternoon to see just how many bodies we can field and for how long they stay. Because there's just too much speculation on our end to really grasp how much resources we're dedicating to attacking and defending y'know? I just feel like turn 1, there will be maybe 1 attack for each player. Turn 2, MAYBE 2 attacks each player, and then Turn 3 is a wild card and from then on the variables diverge infinitely. So hopefully me and the inquisition will have a much better grasp on how things are played. I know there are a lot of players who have started playtesting Crane vs. Crane ever since the article came out. So hopefully we can speak with more authority on this later. But as it stands now, I don't think I can speculate unaligned dynasty auto-includes.

I've watched a ton of streamed games. Water can be very helpful for removing a character your opponent has waiting in the wings to attack you. Remember, there are up to four attacks per turn, and removing a single potential attacker might save a province for an entire turn. Soft control on a character with no fate might as well be hard removal if they can't get it back up into the fight. All the rings seem to be great in the right situation, which I think is a great thing.

Water is one of two rings that has an immediate effect on the board state (Fire and Water)!

People also hate on the Earth ring a lot, but it's a 2 card swing which is huge in the honor matchups or for hand control.

12 hours ago, Foxtrot Four said:

Oooooh, I see, so battle resolution bows everyone AFTER you claim the ring. I see what your saying. But I still disagree because at that point what's the purpose of Every claiming water as the first engagement? Let alone claiming it at all really, besides the bowing someone with no fate on them. Which is nice, don't get me wrong, but if that is the method of the madness I think Water is easily the weakest ring and probably needs a tweak. In my opinion at least.

Who are you going to straighten? the "correct" answer is "someone who defended your provinces, straighten him so he can swing back." but you've already attacked. You've dedicated resources to defending, and attacking. straightening someone who defended is nice, but the only purpose it serves is to allow them to defend again. Which is nice, don't get me wrong but if your first player and you swing, never claim water, unless you want to hate draft it. I mean... I get it, there's a lot to ring claiming sequence, not only as a form of denial from your opponent but what you want from the rings as well, but I still think that if this is the way it works Water is just too weak.

but I digress, if water doesn't work the way I think it did then Wandering Ronin might not be an auto-include.

If I recall, they said that triggering ring effects happen after you check battle stats, but before checking to see if you broke the province. I believe the example provided was winning a fire conflict, honoring a dude, which now puts his stats above the number needed to break the province (whereas without being honored, the player would have won the battle but not broken the province).

9 hours ago, Reiga said:

Water is one of two rings that has an immediate effect on the board state (Fire and Water)!

People also hate on the Earth ring a lot, but it's a 2 card swing which is huge in the honor matchups or for hand control.

2 points-

One, the Earth ring is pretty much the most useful (in most situations, in general), as I see it. I'm just waiting for actual gaming experience to prove this come August.

Two, someone needs to start a Ring thread.... ?

2 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

If I recall, they said that triggering ring effects happen after you check battle stats, but before checking to see if you broke the province. I believe the example provided was winning a fire conflict, honoring a dude, which now puts his stats above the number needed to break the province (whereas without being honored, the player would have won the battle but not broken the province).

This sequence doesn't work with the wording on Pilgrimage though. If ring effect resolves before province breaking, then the conditional on Pilgrimage breaking is pointless.

44 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

This sequence doesn't work with the wording on Pilgrimage though. If ring effect resolves before province breaking, then the conditional on Pilgrimage breaking is pointless.

I think it makes sense, though it's a little confusing. The conditional wording is just there saying that regardless of rings affecting the outcome of province breaking, if the province still breaks, then Pilgrimage doesn't cancel ring's effect.

So if honoring a character (via ring of fire) is what pushed the province into breaking, then Pilgrimage would negate the ring's effect and you wouldn't break the province.

If honoring the character wouldn't matter and the province would still break, it does nothing (which is probably why its province strength is so high).

I specifically recall one of the FFG dev team saying that rings trigger between battle and province resolutions, otherwise I would totally yield this point, as these rules interaction aren't exactly intuitive.

Just now, Isawa Kioshi said:

I think it makes sense, though it's a little confusing. The conditional wording is just there saying that regardless of rings affecting the outcome of province breaking, if the province still breaks, then Pilgrimage doesn't cancel ring's effect.

So if honoring a character (via ring of fire) is what pushed the province into breaking, then Pilgrimage would negate the ring's effect and you wouldn't break the province.

If honoring the character wouldn't matter and the province would still break, it does nothing (which is probably why its province strength is so high).

I specifically recall one of the FFG dev team saying that rings trigger between battle and province resolutions, otherwise I would totally yield this point, as these rules interaction aren't exactly intuitive.

That sounds too clunky though, looking ahead to look back.

Just now, RandomJC said:

That sounds too clunky though, looking ahead to look back.

I agree. In fact I'm hoping there's language in the rules that proves me wrong and smooths this out, because I dislike it.

The combat preview article seems to suggest that you check if you have enough to win and enough to break the province in the same step before claiming the ring. After the ring resolves, you bow everyone and they go home.