After a week of loading every card in wave 1, as well as cards I feel fit the same expansion (For instance, the Raider Advance pilots and upgrades) into Strange Eons, I'm finally ready to share with the world.

Part of my approach is to expand the range generics cover. PS1-3 are all novice tier ("Predator"-bait) pilots, but PS1s are more defensive- almost impossible to block, and able to save their offensive focus for defense until every other pilot has fired. PS3 is offensive, able to arcdodge lower novices and shoot first, killing without reply- which is pretty much the Ywing's only defense. The same applies to the Veteran tier, covering PS4 through PS6, and usually including elite talents to make up for being stuck "man in the middle" between Novices and Heros. Hero tier isnt split the same way, it breaks down by what the meta calls "Pilot skill bids" at PS7, at PS8, and at PS9. A group of PS7 Black Squadrons can kill Red Leader Garven Dres (PS5) over Yavin, but are still in trouble when Luke and Wedge start down the trench run.

I'm looking for feedback, for costs and for the fixes I slipped in on under-performing abilities. Each image has a blurb explaining the changes and usually my intent behind them.

https://imgur.com/a/08kZo

I welcome your thoughts.

Skipped right past 2.0 to 3.0, eh?

1 minute ago, Hawkstrike said:

Skipped right past 2.0 to 3.0, eh?

I consider the rules rewrite in the Episode 7 core set to be 2.0. With erratta we're up to 2.14 or something.

Quote

It's not maneuverable enough to have an ept, but it's thrre

I don't feel like maneuverability should really matter for whether a pilot is considered elite or not. Especially if you're going to then give Horton an EPT anyway.

18 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I don't feel like maneuverability should really matter for whether a pilot is considered elite or not. Especially if you're going to then give Horton an EPT anyway.

Horton has an EPT as a Hero tier in an non-elite ship, but I see your argument.

The question is whether you would take a PS6 Ywing over a PS3 one, for 2 points, even without an EPT.

I think you're making some fundamental missteps here.

You're basically only making changes that seem "intuitive" to you right now. R2-D2 to 5 points, R5 to 0, Biggs to PS4 and 27 points, Wes to 28, Luke to 27, etc. These changes do not necessarily represent the kind of decisions you'd make upon "resetting" the game and trying to build the game to make more sense. These changes only make sense within the context of the current Wave 10 meta. R2-D2 being 5 points in Wave 1 doesnt... mean anything. Well, no, they do mean SOMETHING, but i dont necessarily think they mean what you were hoping they'd mean.

Basically what i'm saying is that the changes you have made are reactionary to the current meta, which....couldnt exist in this X-wing 3.0, because you'd have changed the things that created it. You've made no fundamental adjustments to the way the game is played and is balanced, especially considering that you are unwilling to make changes to the actual abilities, which more often than not are the real issue. Some abilities are so good that they cannot, realistically, actually be cost any amount of points, because the threshold it reaches where it would be "appropriately" cost is too much to be practically inserted into a list.

Like take R2-D2 again. For Wave 1 meta, 5 points doesnt really do anything to balance the card. 1 point of difference to regen is meaningless when you consider that it's still the most powerful wave 1 ability available, plus the fact that Luke + R2-D2...costs the same here as it does normally. All you have done is, in the long term, made regen less effective once you start reaching Wave 7 or so, just because it's harder to get. It does nothing to curb it's power here and now. This kind of balancing changes closes the doors to some combos but opens others up in it's place. You need to be willing to redo EVERYTHING.

1 minute ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

I think you're making some fundamental missteps here.

You're basically only making changes that seem "intuitive" to you right now. R2-D2 to 5 points, R5 to 0, Biggs to PS4 and 27 points, Wes to 28, Luke to 27, etc. These changes do not necessarily represent the kind of decisions you'd make upon "resetting" the game and trying to build the game to make more sense. These changes only make sense within the context of the current Wave 10 meta. R2-D2 being 5 points in Wave 1 doesnt... mean anything. Well, no, they do mean SOMETHING, but i dont necessarily think they mean what you were hoping they'd mean.

Basically what i'm saying is that the changes you have made are reactionary to the current meta, which....couldnt exist in this X-wing 3.0, because you'd have changed them. You've made no fundamental adjustments to the way the game is played and is balanced.

Like take R2-D2 again. For Wave 1 meta, 5 points doesnt really do anything to balance the card. 1 point of difference to regen is meaningless when you consider that it's still the most powerful wave 1 ability available, plus the fact that Luke + R2-D2...costs the same here as it does normally. All you have done is, in the long term, made regen less effective once you start reaching Wave 7 or so, just because it's harder to get. It does nothing to curb it's power here and now.

To be fair, I do intend to keep releasing "waves" to build into the Wave 10 meta. It's just that there is a LOT of cards in Xwing, and trying to make them all "decent" is a herculean task. (Aegean Stables, for most of it)

9 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

To be fair, I do intend to keep releasing "waves" to build into the Wave 10 meta. It's just that there is a LOT of cards in Xwing, and trying to make them all "decent" is a herculean task. (Aegean Stables, for most of it)

I understand, but this sort of proves my point. You're only focusing on how to get X-Wing 3.0 to where X-Wing is now, and not considering the stops it's going to take along the way, and whether those stopping points will be balanced or even fun to play.

I also feel a need to point out another point that i've been trying to make for a long time; Building a balanced game isn't easy. It's a very long, frustrating road. And i mean no offense by this, but trying to take the "easy" way out and balance by point cost only simply doesn't work. I just do not believe that the way you are balancing this X-Wing 3.0 is going to result in a significant step up from what we have already.

Trust me when i say that while exhausting, you will find that it is more gratifying and comprehensive to take your time and build everything from scratch, and will likely garner far more interest in what you've done. In designing X-Wing TCS(Tactical Combat System) and X-Wing TCS: CAS(Combined Arms System), this has been my core philosophy: Take the basics that X-Wing provides statistically and mechanically, and redo everything in a way that allows not only for further expansion in the future, but also is more balanced. It takes a long time but the results that i have created leave a strong sense of pride in my heart, and is far more interesting not only because it provides new content, but also is new in it's own right.

5 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

I understand, but this sort of proves my point. You're only focusing on how to get X-Wing 3.0 to where X-Wing is now, and not considering the stops it's going to take along the way, and whether those stopping points will be balanced or even fun to play.

Part of the reasons for breaking it down into waves is to check this- balancing to a fixed standard, keeping an eye out for power creep and weak cards, in managable chunks. I make a point of frontloading the "Meta approved" upgrades with their ships, to minimize the power gain from accretion, and smooth the road. Wave 1 may not have a rebel arcdodger or an imperial tank or a scum anything, but it sets the rules of thumb I intend to use going foreward.

I'm not ready to throw away the work FFG and this community have done over the past 4-5 years. Starting from the beginning, knowing what I know now, yes, but not a "clean sheet" design, as it were. Your Xwing TCS is fine, but it's not the same game. I want the same game, but with all the dross cleared out.

Looking through what you've done, I like it. Instead of reinventing the game you're just using the years of accumulated wisdom and going back to Wave 1, a time when the game designers did their best but couldn't possibly have known what is now known.

As for your tweaks, my favorite is the mechanic of rerolling the misses after a torpedo hits. One weakness of the system is how it doesn't separate to-hit chances from damage. This is a smooth way to add this while staying in the existing framework.

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

I consider the rules rewrite in the Episode 7 core set to be 2.0. With erratta we're up to 2.14 or something.

Thank you!!

its nice to see someone who understands what a new edition means.

3 hours ago, J1mBob said:

Looking through what you've done, I like it. Instead of reinventing the game you're just using the years of accumulated wisdom and going back to Wave 1, a time when the game designers did their best but couldn't possibly have known what is now known.

As for your tweaks, my favorite is the mechanic of rerolling the misses after a torpedo hits. One weakness of the system is how it doesn't separate to-hit chances from damage. This is a smooth way to add this while staying in the existing framework.

Indeed, but it's pretty unlikely I nailed everything on the first pass. Someone already PMed me about a dozen typos that made it through, at that was just copying what was already written. The stuff I had to eyeball- the new droid abilities, the Tie Advance point costs, the rebalancing on Biggs and Howlrunner- chances are I didnt get something right.

What I'd really like is something like the CustomCardLeague vassal module, loading up unofficial cards and just having a go, see what works.

Bump for the morning croud.

I agree that if there is a 2.0 or a 3.0, the simple cost reductions across the board on T-65s sand Biggs might not be the answer. And.....if Horton gets and EPT (as he should), so should Wampa. Just sayin'.

14 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I agree that if there is a 2.0 or a 3.0, the simple cost reductions across the board on T-65s sand Biggs might not be the answer. And.....if Horton gets and EPT (as he should), so should Wampa. Just sayin'.

Im terrified of Calculation Wampa.

24 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I agree that if there is a 2.0 or a 3.0, the simple cost reductions across the board on T-65s sand Biggs might not be the answer. And.....if Horton gets and EPT (as he should), so should Wampa. Just sayin'.

8 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Im terrified of Calculation Wampa.

Yes, "let the fear flow through you....good, good." ...but they were meant for each other....without Wampa, there is no need for Calculation.

I appreciate some of your ideas... just like an elite skill for Horton for example.

I dislike some other changes you have made, such as a 3 dice attack for concussion missiles, which are my favorite 4 dice missiles.

But there is one thing that really comes to my mind first:

Why are you doing all this? Do you actually use the changed cards in your local meta? I am pretty sure that these changes would not be accepted in my meta, even though there are some really good ideas, just because they are not official.

Thats feels like anybody could come up with certain buffs and nerfs, to adjust the ships just the way he likes.

So, people could use these updated cards, or another XWing 2.0 set made by someone else. Which set should it be? Of course most players would check about their favorite ships first and choose the 2.0 deck that helps them the most.

Its better to stick with the official version, so there wont be any trouble and discussions, or additional random changes. Maybe even mild cheating, because you might know the creator and have an influence on "your" cards.

So whats your personal goal?

Do you think FFG might read about your ideas and use them? I have lost hope on that lately.

I think the most interesting aspects of this are the differentiation between missiles and torpedoes, the integration of the TIE x1 title into the cost of the TIE Adv. etc.. Those kinds of fundamental changes clean up a lot of the rules overhead and card interactions. That's what I would like to see in a rules/card only update to X-Wing.

I appreciate your hard work, but it looks to me that you are not fixing the X-Wings inherent issues at all.

For instance: the problem with Biggs is not the price. You could fix it by simple limiting the ability, like in HotAC Biggs: "Once per round, a friendly ship at Range 1 cannot be targeted by an attack if the
attacker could target you instead."

About the missiles/torpedoes, being secondary weapons they don't give the bonus for range, either to the attacker or to the defender, right? If this is true, you don't need to say that in the card.

I believe that he has removed that rule, and added the text to the cards instead. That way some secondary weapons may have range bonuses.

You forgot Small ship only on Engine Upgrade

As I said before, didn't Major Juggler did something like this adjusting squadron points according to jousting values?

1 hour ago, Schu81 said:

I appreciate some of your ideas... just like an elite skill for Horton for example.

I dislike some other changes you have made, such as a 3 dice attack for concussion missiles, which are my favorite 4 dice missiles.

But there is one thing that really comes to my mind first:

Why are you doing all this? Do you actually use the changed cards in your local meta? I am pretty sure that these changes would not be accepted in my meta, even though there are some really good ideas, just because they are not official.

Thats feels like anybody could come up with certain buffs and nerfs, to adjust the ships just the way he likes.

So, people could use these updated cards, or another XWing 2.0 set made by someone else. Which set should it be? Of course most players would check about their favorite ships first and choose the 2.0 deck that helps them the most.

Its better to stick with the official version, so there wont be any trouble and discussions, or additional random changes. Maybe even mild cheating, because you might know the creator and have an influence on "your" cards.

So whats your personal goal?

Do you think FFG might read about your ideas and use them? I have lost hope on that lately.

Pretty neat and ambitious project.

But I agree with @Schu81. I truly hope that, first and foremost, this is a labor of love and that you are finding great joy in the creative process more than anything else.

However, while you're at it, this would be a great opportunity to correct the X-Wing vs T-65 X-Wing naming issue

I've considered fiddling with something like this just for casual play with my friends, just focusing on smoothing out some of the rough patches that are noticeable even in casual games, but I'm too lazy to actually mess around with making the cards (or especially printing them).

The main two system changes I might address would be A) to condense the pilot skill range to just 1-4 or maybe 1-5, allowing pilots like boba fett and tycho to be folded in with wedge and vader without fussing so much about who should be an 8 rather than a 9 or whatever, and B) to make initiative switch between rounds. Alternating initiative would essentially remove or tone down the whole initiative bidding game, which I know at least a few people seem to like but in casual games especially it feels kind of pointless other than having way too big an impact of the outcome between dueling arc dodgers of the same PS.

Everyone has their own opinions though, so don't let outside influences affect your personal project too much. It's your own effort, might as well at least come out with something you would like in the end rather than trying to please everyone.