So I have just remembered something that was in Episode III's novelization regarding the youngling massacre...

Already a tragic event, it gets worse when you know that Ani was having a mental fight with himself and was going to let the younglings escape by a secret passage... until he is called "Master Anakin", which he remembers how he was not a master despite being in the council, which triggers him and thus annihilation comes to the children...

Since I am an evil Imperial I decided to just post it here and make people look differently at the scene

P.S.: I know the title is over-exagerated, but I tried to not make much of a click-bait while doing something interesting

46 minutes ago, Visovics said:

So I have just remembered something that was in Episode III's novelization regarding the youngling massacre...

Already a tragic event, it gets worse when you know that Ani was having a mental fight with himself and was going to let the younglings escape by a secret passage... until he is called "Master Anakin", which he remembers how he was not a master despite being in the council, which triggers him and thus annihilation comes to the children...

Since I am an evil Imperial I decided to just post it here and make people look differently at the scene

P.S.: I know the title is over-exagerated, but I tried to not make much of a click-bait while doing something interesting

Man, what a nasty temper. . . rub him the wrong way, poke him about not being a master and Pow! You're skewered. . .

Though I must ask - how dependable is the novel? I once ran into a novelization of Episode two that contained lines in the Obi-Wan/Jango Fett Kamino conversation that didn't appear in the film (IIRC). . .

Edit: But also: Didn't the Clone Wars TV show kinda mess with this whole 'I wanna be a Master' business? Ashoka called him 'Master' all the time. So he was a knight with a Padawan, and was called 'Master'. . . thus implying that the Padawans in Ep. III were right to call him such, weren't they? Kanan was called 'Master' by Ezra, when he was but a Padawan himself, wasn't he?

So basically I guess he got fed up with having the duties but not the title? Seems a bit minor, if everybody acknowledges you as such, if only unofficially. Ah well, 21 year olds, am I right? *

*No offense to any 21 year olds reading this. . .

The saddest thing about Anakin in Ep III is when you watch it as a follow up to Clone Wars, where Anakin is actually a well executed and believable human being (as a cartoon) and you get the stiff, unbelievably whiney live-action version.

Judging by the way that the Clone Wars and Episode III denoted "Master"..... it makes me think of the Naval position of Captain.

Anakin could be a Master by"position", in other words, his assignment to Ahsoka as her Master. But he did not have the "rank" of Master...a prerequisite to have an actual voice of vote and influence among the Jedi Council.

In the Navy, an officer could hold the rank of Commander (pay grade O-5...a Captain in the Navy is pay grade O-6), but can hold the position of Captain on a ship.

7 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Though I must ask - how dependable is the novel? I once ran into a novelization of Episode two that contained lines in the Obi-Wan/Jango Fett Kamino conversation that didn't appear in the film (IIRC). . .

If I'm not wrong the novelizations are cannon despite generally containing some slightly different content, in the TFA one when Rey pulls the saber from the snow Kylo says something like "So it's you..."

7 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Edit: But also: Didn't the Clone Wars TV show kinda mess with this whole 'I wanna be a Master' business? Ashoka called him 'Master' all the time. So he was a knight with a Padawan, and was called 'Master'. . . thus implying that the Padawans in Ep. III were right to call him such, weren't they? Kanan was called 'Master' by Ezra, when he was but a Padawan himself, wasn't he?

I think he didn't have the title of a Jedi Master yet as he wasn't experienced enough, but was in the council for being the chosen one and their link to palpatine.

Ahsoka calling him master and Ezra calling Kanan master falls more into the "teacher" way, just like someone who has a servant is his "master" even though he may not be a master himself

4 hours ago, martok2112 said:

Judging by the way that the Clone Wars and Episode III denoted "Master"..... it makes me think of the Naval position of Captain.

Anakin could be a Master by"position", in other words, his assignment to Ahsoka as her Master. But he did not have the "rank" of Master...a prerequisite to have an actual voice of vote and influence among the Jedi Council.

In the Navy, an officer could hold the rank of Commander (pay grade O-5...a Captain in the Navy is pay grade O-6), but can hold the position of Captain on a ship.

That's my point though, he did have a voice and vote in the council. . . perhaps not personal influence, but wouldn't be because of his rank. So he had all the benefits of Master but the Title. . . are Jedi paid? Then maybe he didn't have the dough as well, but he had everything else. He was complaining because he didn't have a title. Seems a little petty. . .

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Seems a little petty. . .

That is entirely the point.

It was.

Everyone else saw it as a great honour to be on the Council at his age.

He saw it as a disgrace to not be a Master.

The whole " The Truth depends on your point of view. " sort of thing that Obi-Wan gets into with Luke (and Ezra) later on...

I think the whole Anakin turns to the dark side arc was very cleverly written. Too bad that for filming reasons the power hungry side of Anakin was totally cut out from the movie and only the emotional part remained. It's still very strong but it's so much better when you read in the books how he desires power and how Palpatine feeds him with doubt about both Padmé and Obi-Wan (and their supposed affair) and in the end poor Annie doesn't even know which way forward is...

And I totally get that the younglings pressing his buttons make him crazed. He's already tormented, in doubt about everything, he reluctantly accepts Sidious' teachings and obviously he desperately seeks something that could enforce his willpower and his determination that he had chosen the right path. And he finds it in the frustration that he didn't get the power form the Jedi Council he so much desired.

Sidenote: You should read some books and comics about the Clone Wars, it sometimes explains steps how Anakin became so unstable by the time of RotS.

On 31/05/2017 at 10:09 PM, Visovics said:

So I have just remembered something that was in Episode III's novelization regarding the youngling massacre...

Already a tragic event, it gets worse when you know that Ani was having a mental fight with himself and was going to let the younglings escape by a secret passage... until he is called "Master Anakin", which he remembers how he was not a master despite being in the council, which triggers him and thus annihilation comes to the children...

I don't remember that, in either the Patricia C. Wrede novelisation or the Matt Stover novelisation. I just checked both, and couldn't find any "secret passage" anywhere - in fact, in both, the youngling massacre is avoided and only the order to go to the temple, from Sidious, is actually shown.

Are you sure you're not thinking of fanfic?

40 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

I don't remember that, in either the Patricia C. Wrede novelisation or the Matt Stover novelisation. I just checked both, and couldn't find any "secret passage" anywhere - in fact, in both, the youngling massacre is avoided and only the order to go to the temple, from Sidious, is actually shown.

Are you sure you're not thinking of fanfic?

Weird, cause I had once seen a discussion from that and they seemed to have genuine quotes and now I am very confused ?

On 6/1/2017 at 4:03 AM, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

That's my point though, he did have a voice and vote in the council. . . perhaps not personal influence, but wouldn't be because of his rank. So he had all the benefits of Master but the Title. . . are Jedi paid? Then maybe he didn't have the dough as well, but he had everything else. He was complaining because he didn't have a title. Seems a little petty. . .

If the Jedi do get paid, it's bound to be very little. They kinda make me think of monks and priests who take vows of poverty. (You know how the Jedi are on possessions.) Jedi Knights aren't necessarily poor. They have means. But they certainly aren't well to do.

The ranks and positions of the Jedi seem to be more like matters of prestige and privilege than anything else.

Being a Master by rank would've allowed Anakin access to files, information, and areas in the Jedi temple that an ordinary Jedi Knight would not have had....and certainly not any Padawan. But Anakin was simply a Master by position, otherwise, still just a Jedi Knight....and in the rules of the Jedi Temple, he couldn't access certain privileges that a ranked Master would have had,

Personal opinions and observations only.

On 5/31/2017 at 5:09 PM, Visovics said:

Anakin...triggers

49 minutes ago, martok2112 said:

If the Jedi do get paid, it's bound to be very little. They kinda make me think of monks and priests who take vows of poverty. (You know how the Jedi are on possessions.) Jedi Knights aren't necessarily poor. They have means. But they certainly aren't well to do.

The ranks and positions of the Jedi seem to be more like matters of prestige and privilege than anything else.

Being a Master by rank would've allowed Anakin access to files, information, and areas in the Jedi temple that an ordinary Jedi Knight would not have had....and certainly not any Padawan. But Anakin was simply a Master by position, otherwise, still just a Jedi Knight....and in the rules of the Jedi Temple, he couldn't access certain privileges that a ranked Master would have had,

Personal opinions and observations only.

Yeah, I also think that because despite his position in the council and yet was denied to be a master he felt somehow disrespected and undermined, because out of everyone in the council, you are the one that is not a master and is still below the rest in hierarchy

I would point out that Anakin isn't put on the council until episode III, so he hasn't been "slighted" yet, and wouldn't be triggered by being called "master" in the Clone Wars. Also, the younglings were in the council room, a further reminder of the "slight" to himself.

It is interesting that the younglings somehow had access to the council chambers, although methinks that another master defending the temple probably put them there, figuring it was the nearest and most secure area of the temple to house them. Of course, they forgot, Anakin, despite not being a master, did have access.

5 hours ago, martok2112 said:

It is interesting that the younglings somehow had access to the council chambers, although methinks that another master defending the temple probably put them there, figuring it was the nearest and most secure area of the temple to house them. Of course, they forgot, Anakin, despite not being a master, did have access.

Ironic, that. By not giving him the title, they triggered him. When he was triggered, his lack of title made them forget he had top-level access.

"Master" could refer to many things.

It is of course a rank that many Jedi may get, not only the members of the Council.

It may also refer to the fact that the Jedi has a Padawan, even though Jedis may choose their apprentice from the rank of Knight.

The term "Master Jedi" is also a politically correct and polite formula to address any Jedi who is obviously not a youngoing (that's why it was rude from Padmé to point out that Anakin was only a Padawan in AotC).

That's why I didn't mind Kylo Ren's somewhat comical temper tantrums. Runs in the family.

On 6/6/2017 at 2:51 PM, martok2112 said:

If the Jedi do get paid, it's bound to be very little. They kinda make me think of monks and priests who take vows of poverty. (You know how the Jedi are on possessions.) Jedi Knights aren't necessarily poor. They have means. But they certainly aren't well to do.

The ranks and positions of the Jedi seem to be more like matters of prestige and privilege than anything else.

Being a Master by rank would've allowed Anakin access to files, information, and areas in the Jedi temple that an ordinary Jedi Knight would not have had....and certainly not any Padawan. But Anakin was simply a Master by position, otherwise, still just a Jedi Knight....and in the rules of the Jedi Temple, he couldn't access certain privileges that a ranked Master would have had,

Personal opinions and observations only.

From what I've heard Jedi aren't paid so much as their needs are paid for, like if they need credits for a mission they get it, they have their food and ships and everything already paid for and given to them. But I'm just basing that off of what Dave Filoni said with his ideas for Ahsoka post her leaving the order, since she would have lived in an institution where she never really *needed* money and had her needs cared for but now that she is out she has to try and work or find ways to pay for the stuff she needs. I think that was for some of the ideas they had for her involving the coruscant underground, I want to say it was discussed during on of the clone wars panels a few years ago. And if I'm not just being crazy they had a short bit from that episode that was either finished or close to finished and they showed it there.

On 6/14/2017 at 6:33 PM, Animewarsdude said:

From what I've heard Jedi aren't paid so much as their needs are paid for, like if they need credits for a mission they get it, they have their food and ships and everything already paid for and given to them. But I'm just basing that off of what Dave Filoni said with his ideas for Ahsoka post her leaving the order, since she would have lived in an institution where she never really *needed* money and had her needs cared for but now that she is out she has to try and work or find ways to pay for the stuff she needs. I think that was for some of the ideas they had for her involving the coruscant underground, I want to say it was discussed during on of the clone wars panels a few years ago. And if I'm not just being crazy they had a short bit from that episode that was either finished or close to finished and they showed it there.

Makes sense.

The Republic/Senate must be the funding agents for the Jedi.

Another aspect comes to mind:

In the radio play of Star Wars back in 1980, Obi-Wan asks Han during a brief exchange: (paraphrased) "Have you seen a credit pass into or out of my hands?" He then goes on that he manages quite well without wealth, let alone a paltry amount of money, after gently chiding Han about his desire to amass wealth.

Then again, in the movie, Obi-Wan does also mention to Luke: "We'll have to sell your speeder." to get the kickoff dosh for their passage. So, whilst Obi-Wan might be fairly self-sufficient, he still has to rely on others (as the Jedi likely relied on external funding as you suggested) to get around.

4 hours ago, martok2112 said:

Makes sense.

The Republic/Senate must be the funding agents for the Jedi.

Another aspect comes to mind:

In the radio play of Star Wars back in 1980, Obi-Wan asks Han during a brief exchange: (paraphrased) "Have you seen a credit pass into or out of my hands?" He then goes on that he manages quite well without wealth, let alone a paltry amount of money, after gently chiding Han about his desire to amass wealth.

Then again, in the movie, Obi-Wan does also mention to Luke: "We'll have to sell your speeder." to get the kickoff dosh for their passage. So, whilst Obi-Wan might be fairly self-sufficient, he still has to rely on others (as the Jedi likely relied on external funding as you suggested) to get around.

I believe that is very much the case seeing how the Jedi were more or less treated as peace keepers and negotiators, sent in to protect senators to their meetings, negotiate on behalf of the senate, or remove dangerous elements like pirates that started to affect matters. And unfortunately for the people needing help I'm sure there was tons of red tape they had to go through to go and help other, like the senate having approve the mission before the Jedi could be sent there...unless they decided to just be Anakin and go do what they felt was right without thinking of the consequences.

I have to say I really appreciate how author of RotS novelization added this whole background to Anakin's journey to the dark side. Star Wars books are generally poorly written and I can only stand some of them because they expanding lore and because, well, they're Star Wars. But RotS is very good attempt to make it all more believable.

He didn't add it per say. It all was originally intended ro be in the film (You can find plentyof cut-out footage online. Shak-Tii for example had two different death scenes.), but they had to be thrown out because the movie was too long. In the end Lucas made the decision to cut out most of Anakin's other motives and keep only his fear-of-losing in the movie.

It was a necessary choice as 4 hours would have been too much to sit out for most of the crowd, but I think it made the movie worse. I really hope that one day there will br an extended edition of RotS with all the cut-out scenes. Christensen did a terrific job discovering Anakin's lust for power. I would wanna see it in the context of the other scenes.

Maybe Ani wasn't given the Master title because he refused to do the paperwork; the final test to mastership being to be able to navigate the legal hurdles to get the Senate to fund a Jedi Mission. With such an enormous, bureaucratic, rotten senate, that has to be a major feat.