2 hours ago, syrath said:

Enhance brawn and agility can be activated multiple times so you can jump from 2 to 6 Brawn in one action, If you already have a high brawn force protection is not as bad as people often make out, it certainly isnt amazing, firstly it costs 1 strain per round but is always up so even compared with supreme reflect it's cheaper than getting hit using parry with 4 ranks of parry, granted it doesnt work with lightsabers but it does work against blasters making it similar to having both parry 4 & reflect 4 , that is always on for 1 strain per round as long as your arent fighting breach weapons. It takes a maneuver to activate and doesn't cost a strain until your next round, as it is always on you dont have to re-up it, it is a little niche but I like it.

What it lacked was the ability to take it beyond 2 ranks which with 3 specs is now possible ( in case you wonder why 3, you need protector and ascetic, neither of which have 2 ranks of force rating leaving you at FR3 and you need 4 for the 4 ranks force protection so you need another one, Armorer would be a good choice if you have soak 2 armor)

No, pretty sure that's wrong. Committing Force dice is an action, and you can only commit what the power allows per action . Enhance allows 1 Force dice for +1 increase. You can commit over multiple actions. So you cannot jump from 2 > 6 in one action, but you can go from 2 > 6 over four actions.

1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

No, pretty sure that's wrong. Committing Force dice is an action, and you can only commit what the power allows per action . Enhance allows 1 Force dice for +1 increase. You can commit over multiple actions. So you cannot jump from 2 > 6 in one action, but you can go from 2 > 6 over four actions.

I thought that was clarified by a Dev, but I can't remember where so cannot confirm.

2 hours ago, Garran said:

The full text description is, "The Force user increases characteristics boosted by this power by 2 (to a maximum of 7) instead of 1 (to a maximum of 6)." So no, you can't activate it twice to get a total of +3.

You also can't activate it separately because it doesn't have a separate activation (or pip cost). It's a permanent alteration of the basic power.

They used some odd syntax there for the talent, wouldn't have really needed the additional description to clarify it if they used proper syntax but hey, I appreciate your clarification on the matter. I haven't picked up my copy yet.

I thin

33 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

They used some odd syntax there for the talent, wouldn't have really needed the additional description to clarify it if they used proper syntax but hey, I appreciate your clarification on the matter. I haven't picked up my copy yet.

Sorry its not in the book Im sure I heard it in a Q&A session on the order 66 podcasr , but for the life of me I cannot remember which one my guess would benthe F&D book dive, I will re listen to it, but if I am wrong all the more reason to take force protection.

It seems ascetic would work well for a marital artist...

6 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

No, pretty sure that's wrong. Committing Force dice is an action, and you can only commit what the power allows per action . Enhance allows 1 Force dice for +1 increase. You can commit over multiple actions. So you cannot jump from 2 > 6 in one action, but you can go from 2 > 6 over four actions.

Here is the link to the Developer answered questions that clarifies you can activate the Enhance upgrade and commit multiple Force Dice to boost a stat in one round.

...You know, I am struck by a revelation. Much to Learn lets you gift one talent you possess to up to five allies. If the talent is ranked, they have as many ranks as you do.

Force Rating is a ranked talent.

...I think I'll leave off there...

1 minute ago, Absol197 said:

...You know, I am struck by a revelation. Much to Learn lets you gift one talent you possess to up to five allies. If the talent is ranked, they have as many ranks as you do.

Force Rating is a ranked talent.

...I think I'll leave off there...

UNLIMITED POWER!!

It's true that you'd be able to do that once per session but since it it gives them as many ranks as you have - it doesn't add your ranks to theirs - you won't be able to create a feedback loop with it. It won't help non force-sensitives (since it's a force talent and requires at least FR 1 already to work), but it would let you boost the rest of the group. That's set against the fact that your own FR probably won't be much higher than everyone else's, so it's useful but not overwhelming.

Or better yet... You are facing the Emperor with his mighty 8 FR... Now the Master. Now I have 8FR... Much to Learn. Now we all do...

Edit: Just thought of another cool combo with Teacher and Much to Learn in a force sensitive party. You give everyone in your party Once a Learner, they all use it to give their FR to the battle meditation guy. He uses it and commits. Profit.

3 hours ago, Absol197 said:

...You know, I am struck by a revelation. Much to Learn lets you gift one talent you possess to up to five allies. If the talent is ranked, they have as many ranks as you do.

Force Rating is a ranked talent.

...I think I'll leave off there...

i just like the idea of giving force rating to a non fs character for a few laughs.(can use relics that way too, no?)

3 hours ago, Saseav said:

i just like the idea of giving force rating to a non fs character for a few laughs.(can use relics that way too, no?)

It won't work. You can give them the Force Rating talent, but it doesn't function unless they already have a Force Rating.

9 minutes ago, Garran said:

It won't work. You can give them the Force Rating talent, but it doesn't function unless they already have a Force Rating.

aww

On 6/2/2017 at 1:16 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Those are definitely some nice training exercises. However, the training exercise I'm most interested in doesn't seem to be included. Where are the Lightsaber Cadences?

Clearly a missed opportunity by myself. I went with the more iconic blaster deflection to be the lightsaber skill training thing, and dueling is also featured. A third training regimen that uses the lightsaber skill seemed like it might have been overly redundant, though the framework for the other exercises should enable GMs to create countless of their own!

So, Ebb/Flow ties into a skill check . . . and Protect/Unleash requires a Discipline skill check . . . which means I can use the two powers together? As in, roll Force Dice for Protect/Unleash, roll Discipline, and then roll Force Dice for Ebb/Flow. Is that true, or I am a reading things wrong?

35 minutes ago, Cannibal Halfling said:

So, Ebb/Flow ties into a skill check . . . and Protect/Unleash requires a Discipline skill check . . . which means I can use the two powers together? As in, roll Force Dice for Protect/Unleash, roll Discipline, and then roll Force Dice for Ebb/Flow. Is that true, or I am a reading things wrong?

You're reading things wrong, in a couple of ways.

First, you can only add Force dice to a roll from a single source at once. Second, Force dice from combined checks cannot be added to rolls that are in and of themselves specific actions. So, as an example, you can't use the Social Grace upgrade of Influence when making the check for Inspiring Rhetoric, because Inspiring Rhetoric is an action in and of itself, which precludes also adding an Influence action to the attempt.

What you could do, however, is find a reason to make a Discipline check (fear maybe?) and roll Flow on that, then on your next turn do Protect/Unleash to add the benefits in from that.

Now, in all fairness, those rules as I've stated them above are the dev's 100% RAW ruling. I...disagree a bit, so my personal houserule is that you can use powers and talents that add dice to specific skills regardless of why you're making that check, and that you can use multiple powers on a roll, as long as both apply.

How it would work in your example of Protect/Unleash and Ebb/Flow? Let's assume your Force Rating is 4. You'd assemble your Discipline pool, and decide whether you're using Ebb or Flow. You'd roll the Discipline attack and roll your 4 Force dice. You'd then have to decide which effects you're activating with each Force point. So if you get, say, 5 FP, you must spend 2 to activate Unleash (or else you fail utterly), and at least one to activate whichever Ebb/Flow power you decided to use. So you have 2 additional FP to spend on upgrades for either power. You could add a Strength to Unleash for more damage and a Range to shoot further, or you could spend one or both on Control upgrades to either heal/deal more strain or gain/inflict additional symbols. But you would not be able to spend 5 points on Unleash and 5 points on Ebb. You'd have 5 points to spend between them, which, if you're honest with yourself, isn't all that great after all, is it ?

16 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

You're reading things wrong, in a couple of ways.

First, you can only add Force dice to a roll from a single source at once. Second, Force dice from combined checks cannot be added to rolls that are in and of themselves specific actions. So, as an example, you can't use the Social Grace upgrade of Influence when making the check for Inspiring Rhetoric, because Inspiring Rhetoric is an action in and of itself, which precludes also adding an Influence action to the attempt.

What you could do, however, is find a reason to make a Discipline check (fear maybe?) and roll Flow on that, then on your next turn do Protect/Unleash to add the benefits in from that.

Now, in all fairness, those rules as I've stated them above are the dev's 100% RAW ruling. I...disagree a bit, so my personal houserule is that you can use powers and talents that add dice to specific skills regardless of why you're making that check, and that you can use multiple powers on a roll, as long as both apply.

How it would work in your example of Protect/Unleash and Ebb/Flow? Let's assume your Force Rating is 4. You'd assemble your Discipline pool, and decide whether you're using Ebb or Flow. You'd roll the Discipline attack and roll your 4 Force dice. You'd then have to decide which effects you're activating with each Force point. So if you get, say, 5 FP, you must spend 2 to activate Unleash (or else you fail utterly), and at least one to activate whichever Ebb/Flow power you decided to use. So you have 2 additional FP to spend on upgrades for either power. You could add a Strength to Unleash for more damage and a Range to shoot further, or you could spend one or both on Control upgrades to either heal/deal more strain or gain/inflict additional symbols. But you would not be able to spend 5 points on Unleash and 5 points on Ebb. You'd have 5 points to spend between them, which, if you're honest with yourself, isn't all that great after all, is it ?

Thought there had to be something off about it. Thanks!

And yeah, even with your houserule it's not very efficient, unless the Force user in question has quite the high rating.

On 05/06/2017 at 0:00 AM, syrath said:

Enhance brawn and agility can be activated multiple times so you can jump from 2 to 6 Brawn in one action, If you already have a high brawn force protection is not as bad as people often make out, it certainly isnt amazing, firstly it costs 1 strain per round but is always up so even compared with supreme reflect it's cheaper than getting hit using parry with 4 ranks of parry, granted it doesnt work with lightsabers but it does work against blasters making it similar to having both parry 4 & reflect 4 , that is always on for 1 strain per round as long as your arent fighting breach weapons. It takes a maneuver to activate and doesn't cost a strain until your next round, as it is always on you dont have to re-up it, it is a little niche but I like it.

What it lacked was the ability to take it beyond 2 ranks which with 3 specs is now possible ( in case you wonder why 3, you need protector and ascetic, neither of which have 2 ranks of force rating leaving you at FR3 and you need 4 for the 4 ranks force protection so you need another one, Armorer would be a good choice if you have soak 2 armor)

Edited yesterday at 12:06 AM by syrath

Force Protection is handy - as you said - when you have multiple ranks so you can commit FR1 and add 2 or more to your soak, instead of FRX = Soak +X when using Enhance.

Also, Force Protection is activated as a maneuver , which means it is very economical; allowing you to perform an action after using the Force Talent. It's a long-term investment before it gets really good. But after 3 or 4 ranks, your soak ca get quite high and it has a very low upkeep (1 strain and commit FR1 per turn), while leaving your remaining actions for attacks or using Force powers.

13 minutes ago, masterstrider said:

Force Protection is handy - as you said - when you have multiple ranks so you can commit FR1 and add 2 or more to your soak, instead of FRX = Soak +X when using Enhance.

Also, Force Protection is activated as a maneuver , which means it is very economical; allowing you to perform an action after using the Force Talent. It's a long-term investment before it gets really good. But after 3 or 4 ranks, your soak ca get quite high and it has a very low upkeep (1 strain and commit FR1 per turn), while leaving your remaining actions for attacks or using Force powers.

Except that's not how it works. If you have 2 ranks in Force Protection, you can commit ( F ) to get Soak +1or commit ( FF ) to get Soak +2. You only ever get +1 Soak per die committed, so with 4 ranks you need to commit 4 Force dice to get the full benefit. And it still costs a maneuver and 1 strain per round to get that.

Just now, Absol197 said:

Except that's not how it works. If you have 2 ranks in Force Protection, you can commit ( F ) to get Soak +1or commit ( FF ) to get Soak +2. You only ever get +1 Soak per die committed. And it still costs a maneuver and 1 strain per round to get that.

Sorry, Absol, you're correct. I misread the power - distracted at work!

Yeah the power is crap (in its current form). But at least it's activated as a maneuver and you don't have to buy Enhance to receive the benefit.

I remember posting a thread about this some time ago with some homebrew fixes to make it more useful. (Looking back, I think we were in agreement about the power being a bit lackluster).

Just now, masterstrider said:

Sorry, Absol, you're correct. I misread the power - distracted at work!

Yeah the power is crap (in its current form). But at least it's activated as a maneuver and you don't have to buy Enhance to receive the benefit.

I remember posting a thread about this some time ago with some homebrew fixes to make it more useful. (Looking back, I think we were in agreement about the power being a bit lackluster).

I think we were . My personal fix is oscillating between committing 1 Force die (at maximum; you couldn't have more than 1 Force Protection up at once) for Soak equal to ranks, or commit 1 Force die for straight damage reduction (like the actual Protect power) equal to ranks.

While the latter seems really powerful, it's important to realize that the straight Protect power is going to give you a bare minimum of 3 resistance, so even if you've spent the hundreds of XP to get all four ranks, you're barely beating the smallest boost you can get from Protect, with the tradeoff of 1 strain/round at the cost of a maneuver vs. an action every round, but able to get other effects (like protecting allies and a higher reduction) with that action.

I'm not sure which I'd go with, but the basic form of commit one die for protection equal to ranks is solid, I think.

1 minute ago, Absol197 said:

I'm not sure which I'd go with, but the basic form of commit one die for protection equal to ranks is solid, I think.

I think this would be more than ample. It essentially becomes a weaker version of Enduring. I would add to the power that "you may also reduce critical injury results by -10 per strain spent, up to ranks in Force Protection", just to give it a bit more flavour.

I considered that, but that seemed to be a bit much. I dunno. Once the Guardian in my game gets that talent and I can see it in play, we can determine if we feel more is necessary .

My book was delayed by one day USPS promises to have it here by tomorrow though. Can't wait to have it in my grasp.

2 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Once the Guardian in my game gets that talent and I can see it in play, we can determine if we feel more is necessary .

If anything they hit survives long enough to bother activating it...

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...And now back to Disciples of Harmony...