I have become much less impressed with this card over time.... I struggle to see Lion failing to break provinces and win military, bearing in mind we have not seen much from Crab and Unicorn... but still. This feels very much like a 'now I definitely can't lose military, but you will continue smashing me politically.' Deathseeker is a much scarier card for me.

I think the answer will differ for every clan. For crane and scorpion he's annoying because he enters play honoured. Scorpion will have to drag him through the mud twice for some of their tech. Any 4 cost is a juicy target for I can swim but he enters play with some protection.

For crane we suddenly need 2 honoured characters for our event cancellation. In addition he makes everyone in his army more resilient to dueling and his force pump still works while bowed.

For crab and unicorn on the other hand his force pump will be the scary part. The fact he entered play honoured, although strong, is just a minor effect.

17 hours ago, williamobrien said:

AEG actually stealth-changed the Arasou/Toturi birth order in one of the 4th Edition books, either Great Clans or Imperial Histories 1. There were quite a few little changes in those books. I don't know if it was from bad/indifferent editing or an actual conscious change. I guess it does simplify things if Arasou is older.

It makes the whole part about forcing Toturi to shave his head and live in a monastery to make way for Arasou unnecessary.

Quote

I don't think there's any reason so far to expect their parentage to be different, if it ever gets mentioned. It only really came up as a part of Toturi's character in Way of the Lion.

Eh, I think it became a more significant thing when they actually told the story of Lady Matsu refusing to be Akodo's wife. Then it became less about vague internal politics and took on overtones about broken traditions / bad karma.

Quote

I'm not sure it matters for who the Thunders are. Neither Hoturi or Yakamo were descended from their original Thunders (Hoturi sort of was, Yakamo definitely wasn't).

At worst, they were descended from the immediate siblings of their Thunders - though the original Crane Thunder (who was assassinated) and Hida Atarasai all had surviving children.

The one that actually throws the whole bloodlines idea out the window is Kachiko. Yes, she came from the line of Shosuro Kuge, but Shosuro didn't have any children in that guise - the family line was established by those who gave her fealty. Only in the guise of Soshi did Shosuro have any possible opportunity to have a bloodline - assuming that was ever physically possible.

Personally, I'm hoping that the LCG storyline doesn't touch the idea of "The Lying Darkness" with a 11.5' pole and Shosuro is just a mortal follower of Bayushi in this timeline.

Quote

I think the identities of the Thunders could very well change. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't even decided yet (or if there even will be a Day of Thunder).

True, but the way Rokugan handles birthright and destiny alongside the Path of Man makes it unlikely that the Thunders (assuming the LCG even does the Second Day of Thunder again, they don't have to) would come from outside their respective clans. Once within the Clans, the likelihood of coming from a different Family (a Unicorn thunder from the line of Shinjo instead of Otaku) or even the branch families or ji-samurai as opposed to the Kuge of the appropriate family seems less likely.

Akodo Toturi always struck me as weird for carrying the Soul of Thunder from Lady Matsu since he was basically reviled and hated by Tsuko's side of the family for being as un-Matsu-like as possible.

6 minutes ago, mlund said:

It makes the whole part about forcing Toturi to shave his head and live in a monastery to make way for Arasou unnecessary.

His write-up in Imperial Histories says he was the younger son and not expected to rule the clan, so they sent him to a monastery when he started to act scholarly. I guess it streamlines things a tiny bit, so I can see why the change was made. I'm just not sure if it was actually intentional or not.

Quote

At worst, they were descended from the immediate siblings of their Thunders - though the original Crane Thunder (who was assassinated) and Hida Atarasai all had surviving children.

Yeah, Hoturi was presumably descended from the dead brother, who had a shared soul with his twin sister. Did Atarasi have children? Seems odd for Osano-wo to become champion if his brother had children (who would all be older than he was).

Quote

Personally, I'm hoping that the LCG storyline doesn't touch the idea of "The Lying Darkness" with a 11.5' pole and Shosuro is just a mortal follower of Bayushi in this timeline.

Very much agreed.

Quote

Akodo Toturi always struck me as weird for carrying the Soul of Thunder from Lady Matsu since he was basically reviled and hated by Tsuko's side of the family for being as un-Matsu-like as possible.

I wonder if Matsu had even been decided as Female when the CCG Thunders were determined. Way of the Crane has a publish date of 1998, so well after Crimson and Jade came out. I don't remember if the 1st Ed core rulebook had anything about the identity of the Thunders, my copy is buried somewhere. I think it came out summer 1997, so possibly still after the CCG decisions were made. The original Shiryo no Matsu card is clearly male, though it's not entirely clear that those early ancestor cards were originally intended to be the actual people. There are several mismatches among them.

50 minutes ago, williamobrien said:

Did Atarasi have children? Seems odd for Osano-wo to become champion if his brother had children (who would all be older than he was).

Eh, it's not like Atarasai was ever Crab Champion. He died his first death 170 years before Hida did and 20 years hefore Hida stepped aside as Champion.

He had twin sons who were Lost during the Troll Wars lead by their uncle, Osano-wo. Whether they'd done their duty and left behind progeny is unclear.

I'm not sure it's that odd for Osano-wo to become Champion, though. Even with the tradition of primogeniture, if the first-born son dies before he inherits a title whether that title passes to his next brother or his own first-born (or his first-born's first-born) depends on the culture or family's practice of substitution under the inheritance. It could also just be that Atarsai's sons died with no legitimate male issue.

On 5/31/2017 at 10:43 PM, Isawa Tasatu said:

I have become much less impressed with this card over time.... I struggle to see Lion failing to break provinces and win military, bearing in mind we have not seen much from Crab and Unicorn... but still. This feels very much like a 'now I definitely can't lose military, but you will continue smashing me politically.' Deathseeker is a much scarier card for me.

Pretty much my summation of these two cards.

I can see myself throwing down a Deathseeker as soon as I can afford her, due to her 'defensive' abilities and "ease of use" (bad wording, bear with me). But the Honored General needs to have more consideration prior to use, preferably additional Lion personalities already in play, and is simply 'offensive' in use and thus needs more careful thought.

Having said all this, imo, the main determinant as to when to play these 2 cards (and how many to include in your deck, though I would go with 3 copies of both) will be dictated by the splashed Clan cards included in a Lion deck.