4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

OK....that explanation makes more sense. Still, that's only 7 out of 16 ships (that are released) that can be considered "clunky". They aren't all 40 pt ships with 1 agility, either.

Well, half.
The rest are:

A-wing: Can't deal enough damage.
Z-95: The same.
E-wing: Overpriced. Corran Horn suffers of the Soontir disease (bombs and insta crit/damage mechanics makes this ships too risky).
TIE Fighter: It's not even a proper Rebel ship, come on... Sad that it does the buffing role better than the HWK or the U-wing...
X-Wing: I have heard they have been in need of a fix for some time. You either see only Biggs because he's a crutch, or you see other T-65 X-wings... with Biggs.
T-70 X-Wing: Let's leave it at Okay .
YT-1300 and YT-2400: Large ships have been out of fashion for rebels since TLT and alphastrikes became rampant. Save for Rey, the new YT-1300 pilots are said to be way worse than the old ones.

5 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Well, half.
The rest are:

A-wing: Can't deal enough damage.
Z-95: The same.
E-wing: Overpriced. Corran Horn suffers of the Soontir disease (bombs and insta crit/damage mechanics makes this ships too risky).
TIE Fighter: It's not even a proper Rebel ship, come on... Sad that it does the buffing role better than the HWK or the U-wing...
X-Wing: I have heard they have been in need of a fix for some time. You either see only Biggs because he's a crutch, or you see other T-65 X-wings... with Biggs.
T-70 X-Wing: Let's leave it at Okay .
YT-1300 and YT-2400: Large ships have been out of fashion for rebels since TLT and alphastrikes became rampant. Save for Rey, the new YT-1300 pilots are said to be way worse than the old ones.

I think your perception is based on the current power level of the game. Personally, I think there will be another Nerfing that will reduce the really OP stuff. So....once you remove the really broken stuff that exist currently (Jumpmasters, Mindlink, and Biggs, but possibly even TLT's). If this were the case, then I think what is considered "viable" would change. A lot of ships generally considered "not competitive" would become so again. I think that once PTL Arc Dodgers were reduced from the tables, you made a lot more of these ships viable. Also, you nerf the really broken stuff that can handle these things and it becomes more open.

For example, there have been reports of 4 x T-65's winning Store Championships. Also some coming close. That is significant. There are also builds with A-wings that have been doing well, especially with SnapShot. Intensity will also help them.

Since few people actually fly the old ships, how long will it take for someone to try them out again and figure out that they aren't so bad? The "conventional wisdom" has written them off for a long time.

I do think the E-wing is bound to get a buff soon, as well. Probably something that won't break Corn Hole, but something to help the others.

I will say that you also forgot the Attack Shuttle.

7 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

Why are you always referring Palpatine and x7 as OP? They never were. Not statistically. I´m sorry if it was a drag to see similiar lists one after another, but that does not make them OP. Imperials didn´t have much else to have success with. Now they don´t have even that.

Yes, palp and x7 were OP before the nerf. There was literally no reason to fly an imperial list without one or both of those cards because they were that much better than anything else imperials had. Before IV imperials had several flyable lists. Afterwards, they had defenders. And defenders and jumpmasters between them pushed out the entire rebel faction from the game.

7 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

Imperials were not eviscerated? Why we did not see any Imperial lists even at top 8 this year? Stop making things up and see the facts for yourself. Oh, and the ship ratings as well.

There was not a lot of imperials in the top 16, no. But you know who DID make the top 16, even if not the top 8? Palpatine. You know what showed up several times in 7-2 lists that just missed the cut? X7. You know who's won multiple store championships SINCE worlds? Palpatine. Oh, and Defenders.

7 hours ago, Duskwalker said:

I am pretty sure there is math out there that says otherwise, and considering that not to long ago the meta consisted entirely of Defenders, with and without Palp and varies flavors of jumpmasters while Rebels where deader then Imperials are now the problem is not that Imps where hit to hard, it is that Scum was not hit hard enough.

This. Defenders were absolutely a problem. Jumpmasters were also a problem. Defenders were reigned in (but are still quite good). Jumpmasters...were not reigned in well. They will get nerfed again.

7 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Major Juggler disagreed with you when he talked about his results. Palpatine pushed his lists to absurd levels of efficiency, creating a highly unhealthy situation where generic pilots were not only much harder to fly (not having knowledge of the board state, easy to fly dials, and all the tools for repositioning), but also much less efficient - meaning that if you were to joust the Palpaces, statisticaly you'd lose. So it was not enough to outfly them by forcing a joust, you actually had to super-outfly them having none of the tools required for that and then you still had to get lucky. That is why Palpatine needed to be toned down a lot.

x7s are a similar issue, being more efficient than the baseline ships of Z95 and TIE/ln, but with the added benefit of a dial that allows for way more consistent actions. Triple Crack Defenders was literaly always better than a 6 Crack or Pattyswarm. Now at least they lose their efficiency when blocked, so there is counterplay possible - if you don't get outplayed, though, they are still exactly the same.

Note also that "but the other stuff is so op, too" is not an argument here. You know what was one of the few things with even more gross numbers? Dengaroo. And that absolutely had to go, too. Obviously some things were missed, but that is no reason not to start somewhere.

This

4 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

I was talking about the ship ranking after the nerfing (to point out that even Defenders are not at the top) - to my knowledge we don´t have a similiar from before. The last tournament data speaks for itself.

Before the nerf, Defenders won a system open. They didn't win more because, again, scum had even more OP stuff (Paratanni), but they showed up in the cuts at more. They won a ton of regionals. Just because there's something MORE OP out there doesn't mean defenders werent ALSO OP.

And store championships have shown imperials doing quite well for themselves, a lot of them with defenders.

4 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

Outflying predictable moves is not that hard and Palpatine in a Lambda could also be destroyed. The game is full of tricks which give you automatic evades, Palpatine was no different in that sense. Very expensive and very good one, admitted.

Except palpatine could just run away if he wanted so you're trying to chase him down while you get shot up by his 2 defender buddies. And triple defenders didn't even have a shuttle for you to blast first.

4 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

So what if Triple crack Defenders were statistically better than 6 crackswarm? I bet lots of thing are better than 6 crackswarm.

Crack swarm was one of the top imperial lists before defenders came out (because they could handle deadeye uboats). TIE Swarms have been playable (and generally good if you could fly it well) since the game released, and were entirely killed off by x7 defenders because they couldn't kill them (also by dengaroo).

4 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

I have never used "but the other stuff is OP too" as my argument. Palpatine just wasn´t. I can live with the x7 nerf, even if it was unjustified.

Palpatine warped the imperial meta. He was so good you basically HAD to have him in any list you built (except swarms, which as I already pointed out were killed off by defenders and dengaroo). If an card is autoinclude in every list for a faction, that's a problem. Kind of like Mindlink for scum (and jumpmasters). Or Biggs for rebels.

3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Yes, palp and x7 were OP before the nerf. There was literally no reason to fly an imperial list without one or both of those cards because they were that much better than anything else imperials had. Before IV imperials had several flyable lists. Afterwards, they had defenders. And defenders and jumpmasters between them pushed out the entire rebel faction from the game.

There was not a lot of imperials in the top 16, no. But you know who DID make the top 16, even if not the top 8? Palpatine. You know what showed up several times in 7-2 lists that just missed the cut? X7. You know who's won multiple store championships SINCE worlds? Palpatine. Oh, and Defenders.

This. Defenders were absolutely a problem. Jumpmasters were also a problem. Defenders were reigned in (but are still quite good). Jumpmasters...were not reigned in well. They will get nerfed again.

This

Before the nerf, Defenders won a system open. They didn't win more because, again, scum had even more OP stuff (Paratanni), but they showed up in the cuts at more. They won a ton of regionals. Just because there's something MORE OP out there doesn't mean defenders werent ALSO OP.

And store championships have shown imperials doing quite well for themselves, a lot of them with defenders.

Except palpatine could just run away if he wanted so you're trying to chase him down while you get shot up by his 2 defender buddies. And triple defenders didn't even have a shuttle for you to blast first.

Crack swarm was one of the top imperial lists before defenders came out (because they could handle deadeye uboats). TIE Swarms have been playable (and generally good if you could fly it well) since the game released, and were entirely killed off by x7 defenders because they couldn't kill them (also by dengaroo).

Palpatine warped the imperial meta. He was so good you basically HAD to have him in any list you built (except swarms, which as I already pointed out were killed off by defenders and dengaroo). If an card is autoinclude in every list for a faction, that's a problem. Kind of like Mindlink for scum (and jumpmasters). Or Biggs for rebels.

- You keep saying that they were OP, but you have nothing to back that claim. Don´t mix "lot played" to "OP". Some ships are always better than others, are you serious that they were only flyable list after IV? If all other ships are now garbage, the more Palpatine and Defenders should be un-nerfed!

-Come on, one Palpatine made it barely to top 16 and in a Decimator. One Decimator is hardly a proof of anything.

- So before Defenders actually were competitive, not OP. You are again mixing a lot played and good to OP . Overpowered means broken, so powerful that anything can hardly compete against it. 3 lists in Top 8 does NOT count for OP, no matter how many times you repeat it.

-TIE Swarms is a bad example for competitive build as every other lists seems to beat them anyway, not just Defenders or Palpatine. If Palpatine had been given more time, the lists would sure gone to more diverse direction at some point. You can´t blame people playing lists that have a chance at winning. And even then, Imperials did not win. Haven´t won in years. So much OP, right?

47 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

- You keep saying that they were OP, but you have nothing to back that claim. Don´t mix "lot played" to "OP". Some ships are always better than others, are you serious that they were only flyable list after IV? If all other ships are now garbage, the more Palpatine and Defenders should be un-nerfed!

-Come on, one Palpatine made it barely to top 16 and in a Decimator. One Decimator is hardly a proof of anything.

- So before Defenders actually were competitive, not OP. You are again mixing a lot played and good to OP . Overpowered means broken, so powerful that anything can hardly compete against it. 3 lists in Top 8 does NOT count for OP, no matter how many times you repeat it.

-TIE Swarms is a bad example for competitive build as every other lists seems to beat them anyway, not just Defenders or Palpatine. If Palpatine had been given more time, the lists would sure gone to more diverse direction at some point. You can´t blame people playing lists that have a chance at winning. And even then, Imperials did not win. Haven´t won in years. So much OP, right?

Other lists aren't garbage after IV. They just werne't as good as the broken tie/x7s. If you flew anything else, you were flying an inferior list. There's other ships and lists in imperials that are actually quote good. They just aren't as good as prenerf x7 was.

One palpatine is enough to say he's not a dead card. Look at how many cards DIDN'T make the top 16. Or the top 32. Or day 2 at all. The TIE Punisher? That's a dead ship. X7 and Palp are far from it.

Defenders WERE broken They were just LESS broken than jumpmasters. Broken doesn't have to mean that nothing else can compete against it. Just that it's pushing a lot of other things out of the meta. And while there were "only" 3 in the top 8, there were no no-defender or non-palp lists there at all. Top 16 had a single non-defender imperial list that still had palp in it.

And swarms were actually doing quite well before Veterans. They could smash deadeye u-boats for instance.

Before Imperial Veterans was released, Palp Aces in several varieties were being playing by top players around the world and being routinely quoted as the best list in the game. Players like the Howard brothers and the Foss brothers are top tier competitors with opinions that can be more or less considered gospel.

When Veterans was released, Palp Aces didn't get worse. It's just that Palp Defenders or Triple Defenders were so much more efficient, with all of the benefits and few of the downsides compared to the equivalent aces builds.

If something is pushing out what some of the best players worldwide are calling out as the best list in the game, chances are it's probably further above the curve than you should be comfortable with.

As an aside, I'm really curious as to how the 5× Unguided Rockets/LWF TIE Bomber swarm would run against the new weird pile of junk K-Fighter swarm (Vaksai, Thread Tracers, Inertial Dampeners, Guidance Chips, Munitions Failsafe?)

The Kihraxz is no doubt more offensive at that point, but the Bombers have a whole extra point of agility and the same hit points.

On 5/30/2017 at 9:57 AM, Fuzzywookie said:

FFG hates the Empire. Ugh.

They do not!

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/6/2/prepare-for-impact/

Okay maybe they do ,

but the Imperials are the source of all the problems of the Republic, nay the Galaxy! Their racist xenophobic ways have caused so much Tibanna Emissions we are experiencing galactic warming and hyperclimate change. All you do is hear about them whine without checking their Imperial Privilege.

The sooner we get rid of all Imperials in Star Wars the better!