... StarVipers are now -3pts.

-3 points?!

Generics are now 22pts. That's the price of an IA+R2 Rookie X-wing.

The barrel roll is interesting - lose the standard roll for a more longer, flexible, version. That's not a downgrade, especially for arc-dodging while keeping things in arc. So this is a straight-up buff (albeit a strings-attached one) at a discount.

My initial thought is that this is crazy overpowered ... but it isn't. Not compared to the Jumpmaster, Defender, and new Scyk pilots (Notice the PS1 generic with a cool ability for the price of a Academy Pilot? Or the EPT-and-special-ability packing pilot for a point cheaper than the TPV? Yeeaah.). I'm a little shocked, still, but I guess their explicit intention going forward is simply move the gold standard of balance up, and move on from there.

But holy crap, they didn't treat it subtle-like, did they? The only thing really holding them back will be the lack of a truly high-PS pilot.

I don't know if I missed it, but I've seen several people state that the Vaksai title point discount is for modification upgrades only, but the wording seems to suggest all upgrades, including illicit, missile, and Elite talents. So are we getting a ship with a free veteran instincts?

8 minutes ago, Reiver said:

... StarVipers are now -3pts.

-3 points?!

Generics are now 22pts. That's the price of an IA+R2 Rookie X-wing.

The barrel roll is interesting - lose the standard roll for a more longer, flexible, version. That's not a downgrade, especially for arc-dodging while keeping things in arc. So this is a straight-up buff (albeit a strings-attached one) at a discount.

My initial thought is that this is crazy overpowered ... but it isn't. Not compared to the Jumpmaster, Defender, and new Scyk pilots (Notice the PS1 generic with a cool ability for the price of a Academy Pilot? Or the EPT-and-special-ability packing pilot for a point cheaper than the TPV? Yeeaah.). I'm a little shocked, still, but I guess their explicit intention going forward is simply move the gold standard of balance up, and move on from there.

But holy crap, they didn't treat it subtle-like, did they? The only thing really holding them back will be the lack of a truly high-PS pilot.

At -3 points the generics are still 2 points more than the almost-identical protectorate.

So am I the only one who was secretly hoping for something for the firespray when I first saw the announcement?

Wouldn't have been that hard to include a few pilot cards, baseplates, and upgrades for both scum and imps.

Or even simpler...what if the kfighter title had been for both that ship AND the firespray??

Would that be too good for it? Would mean you could take engine and thrusters together, have your crew member be 1 point cheaper, 1 point cheaper for illicits, secondary weapons, and epts as well...

So at 22 pts for a StarViper, who thinks 4SV/Z will be a thing?

Just now, VanderLegion said:

At -3 points the generics are still 2 points more than the almost-identical protectorate.

An entire extra HP, at Agi3, is not to be sneezed at. For two points, it's an absolute bargain.

A funky change-your-facing barrel roll is not to be sneezed at on a ship with limited actions, too.

10 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I don't know if I missed it, but I've seen several people state that the Vaksai title point discount is for modification upgrades only, but the wording seems to suggest all upgrades, including illicit, missile, and Elite talents. So are we getting a ship with a free veteran instincts?

Yup. Some people can't read very well.

The card does two things:

Thing 1: All of your equipped upgrades are one point cheaper (and can't get cheaper than free).
Thing 2: You can equip up to 3 different Modifications upgrades.

3 minutes ago, Reiver said:

... StarVipers are now -3pts.

-3 points?!

Generics are now 22pts. That's the price of an IA+R2 Rookie X-wing.

The 'Viper is a PS1 3/3/4/1 with a fancy barrel roll.

The X-wing is a PS2 3/2/3/2 with 8 green moves and a bonus shield whenever it wants it.

So the Viper picks up an extra agility for the cost of the "super" shield and has re-positioning. Given that the IA+R2 Rookie is still overpriced, I'd be willing to call that fair (and that's not power creep; it's been overpriced since IA became a thing. IA needed to have a negative cost if it really wanted to bring the X-wing in general back into contention).

Just now, markcsoul said:

So am I the only one who was secretly hoping for something for the firespray when I first saw the announcement?

Wouldn't have been that hard to include a few pilot cards, baseplates, and upgrades for both scum and imps.

Or even simpler...what if the kfighter title had been for both that ship AND the firespray??

Would that be too good for it? Would mean you could take engine and thrusters together, have your crew member be 1 point cheaper, 1 point cheaper for illicits, secondary weapons, and epts as well...

That... would be a bit much for the Firespray, yes. I remain convinced that the ship is just a barrel roll action away from being competitive. Boba & Kath have brilliant abilities; they just need to be able to leverage them.

3 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Good StarViper fix. Great Khiraxz fix ... maybe too good (1 fewer point for each modification upgrade would have been fine, I think).

It'll be Talonbane Cobra everywhere, for a while -- not that that's a bad thing.

But ... where's the gorram frakkin' T-65 FIX? !!

I did test MK.II tittle with Advanced Sensors and Experimental Interface combined with Expert Handling. And with PTL without Experimental Interface and I gotta say that that barrel roll makes Viper super maneuverable, it is insanely good tittle. You are very close to the maneuverability of pre-nerf Echo!

9 hours ago, xstormtrooperx said:

You seem to miss that all upgrades get a 1 point discount. So hey 5 Marauders with XX-23 S-Thread Tracers and Black Market Slicer Tools (or Inertial Dampeners).

We are speaking of a 10 points discount here. They were already priced better and more aggressively than the X-Wing. I don´' t find it appealing that the player of this list gets 10 extra points to spend!

Further problem: With such a title FFG has to double check (no triple check) EVERY upgrade costing 1 point more than before. And any modification even more - not to give birth to a gamebreaking new abomination!

I really fear this card will restrict development of new modification cards! And every Interceptor player fells hardkicked into his balls when looking at such a title. Burn worhtless piece of paper named Royal Guard Tie.

There's a few different parts to what you're saying. I don't think you're _wrong_, but I think it's not as bad as you think it is.

Currently the K-Fighter (like the X-Wing) is a pure jouster. It needs to be priced aggressively in order to make up for the fact that it can only go forward and turn around. It's simply not as capable of keeping enemies in their sights as an arc dodger or turreted ship.

This means that points spent on Jousters need to do more work than points spent on ships with other things to offer.

So that brings us to the reason for the discount: there simply aren't any upgrades currently that are worth the points to put them on a Kihraxz Fighter. Vectored Thrusters was probably designed with the Kihraxz in mind. And it's not really _worth_ it at 2 points. But probably will be at 1 point. Slicer Tools? That's one action on a ship that can only take 1 action... And has no offensive or defensive multipliers other than it's action bar. Slicer Tools might be worth it for free, but using it leaves you a sitting duck. Taking it at 1 point is a risk that there will never be a time to use it. But free? That's not risking anything.

The Royal Guard Title tries to solve a different problem, and so is a different tool. The two look very similar, but because the ships are so different, the cards behave very differently. They would even if you gave the Vaksai title to the TIE Interceptor.

Honestly, I think in 2017, they'd probably use something else entirely for the Squint. But the Royal Guard Title was the first time they tried to design a "fix" for a ship. They were still figuring out how to do things. The Squint needs to be able to boost or BR at a high PS. That means that Fel or Jax will basically always be the pilots used. A good Squint fix would address this.

Looking back at the Vaksai Title, however, I have a small concern along the lines you have. It's possible that some combination of 3 upgrades will change the roll of the K-Fighter from Jouster to Arc Dodger. If that happens, the point reduction could become a problem.

I just don't think it's there currently.

14 minutes ago, Reiver said:

An entire extra HP, at Agi3, is not to be sneezed at. For two points, it's an absolute bargain.

A funky change-your-facing barrel roll is not to be sneezed at on a ship with limited actions, too.

It's not worth 2 points when the protectorate can just tkae the title, be 1 point cheaper, and likely get that same extra hp int he form of a free evade at some point before it dies. I do like the barrel roll, just dunno if it'll be enough to make the generic vipers worth it. If all starvipers had the virago title built in (even if they all cost 1 more), that'd be a completely different story.

7 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Looking back at the Vaksai Title, however, I have a small concern along the lines you have. It's possible that some combination of 3 upgrades will change the roll of the K-Fighter from Jouster to Arc Dodger. If that happens, the point reduction could become a problem.

I just don't think it's there currently.

At the end of the day, no matter what upgrades you put on it, that dial is still very average. The green moves available just would not support arc-dodging beyond the single boost or barrel roll that T-70s and TIE Fighters have been doing for years. Unless FFG lose their minds and print a modification which makes all of your turns green, we have very little to worry about.

16 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It's not worth 2 points when the protectorate can just tkae the title, be 1 point cheaper, and likely get that same extra hp int he form of a free evade at some point before it dies. I do like the barrel roll, just dunno if it'll be enough to make the generic vipers worth it. If all starvipers had the virago title built in (even if they all cost 1 more), that'd be a completely different story.

A PS1 protectorate is not always so lucky as to get their title to work out. I freely admit it's nothing to be sneezed at, but paying that extra point is a very real choice.

A way to look at it: The 18pt Alpha Squadron Pilot was terrible at attack 3, agi3, and 3 HP. For two points more, the Protectorate proved fantastic with an extra HP. The Starviper is... 2 points more for an extra HP again.
I realise it's not linear - the first bonus HP is worth more than the later ones - but that, plus the cool barrel roll, probably puts it in a reasonably comfortable place alongside the naked Protectorate. Don't forget it's got a full suite of Speed 1 moves, which makes it rather excellent at close-quarters blocking, etc; it's now even better than ever at same.

Just now, Reiver said:

A PS1 protectorate is not always so lucky as to get their title to work out. I freely admit it's nothing to be sneezed at, but paying that extra point is a very real choice.

A way to look at it: The 18pt Alpha Squadron Pilot was terrible at attack 3, agi3, and 3 HP. For two points more, the Protectorate proved fantastic with an extra HP. The Starviper is... 2 points more for an extra HP again.
I realise it's not linear - the first bonus HP is worth more than the later ones - but that, plus the cool barrel roll, probably puts it in a reasonably comfortable place alongside the naked Protectorate. Don't forget it's got a full suite of Speed 1 moves, which makes it rather excellent at close-quarters blocking, etc; it's now even better than ever at same.

Yah if anything it's the speed 1 maneuvers that would convince me to take the viper instead.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Yah if anything it's the speed 1 maneuvers that would convince me to take the viper instead.

That's right. Remember, it doesn't need to be better than a Protectorate Starfighter - they're already, frankly, fantastic to the point of being eyed askance. Anything equal to a Protectorate has my jaw dropping as it is, and we haven't even seen what other toys the Viper will be getting, yet!

20 minutes ago, Reiver said:

That's right. Remember, it doesn't need to be better than a Protectorate Starfighter - they're already, frankly, fantastic to the point of being eyed askance. Anything equal to a Protectorate has my jaw dropping as it is, and we haven't even seen what other toys the Viper will be getting, yet!

The top 2 named protectorates are fantastic to the point of being eyed askance. When's the last time you saw PS1s? Guri's absolutely going to be worth using with the new title. Just havne't decided on the generics yet wihtout the system slot.

3 hours ago, Reiver said:

... StarVipers are now -3pts.

-3 points?!

Generics are now 22pts. That's the price of an IA+R2 Rookie X-wing.

The barrel roll is interesting - lose the standard roll for a more longer, flexible, version. That's not a downgrade, especially for arc-dodging while keeping things in arc. So this is a straight-up buff (albeit a strings-attached one) at a discount.

My initial thought is that this is crazy overpowered ... but it isn't. Not compared to the Jumpmaster, Defender, and new Scyk pilots (Notice the PS1 generic with a cool ability for the price of a Academy Pilot? Or the EPT-and-special-ability packing pilot for a point cheaper than the TPV? Yeeaah.). I'm a little shocked, still, but I guess their explicit intention going forward is simply move the gold standard of balance up, and move on from there.

But holy crap, they didn't treat it subtle-like, did they? The only thing really holding them back will be the lack of a truly high-PS pilot.

I think a lot of you overvalue the one agility. It isn't anywhere near as good without the ability to get evade tokens or stacks of focus, for which the Viper needs Mindlink, which isn't availiable at the base level.

One thing that hasn't yet been looked at: is Hot Shot Blaster worth it for two points?

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

One thing that hasn't yet been looked at: is Hot Shot Blaster worth it for two points?

With free Munitions Failsafe, maybe. Potentialy also with Scavenger Crane, but I am not sure about that, seems like too many points.

6 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

With free Munitions Failsafe, maybe. Potentialy also with Scavenger Crane, but I am not sure about that, seems like too many points.

You can do it with free failsafe but not with crane. You can also fit 3 in with Jabba in a Slaver...

More than anything, I am excited about the new SV pilots. Xizor has an ability to keep himself alive... but there really wasn't a good reason to sacrifice other pilots for him. The mkII upgrade giving more maneuver options is a good thing, too. The Vaskai... well, it is very SWG, dumping loads of silly upgrades onto a thing. LOL There are going to be some really powerful combos. I did think that how the Khirax was sold as a scum X-wing at first was maybe overselling it a bit. Maybe this solution is going overboard, but we won't know until later.

Now top Scum squads consist almost exclusively of Protectorates, Jumpmasters, Shadowcasters and maybe Palob. 99% of squads are Mindlinked.

Among new upgrades and possibilities I don't see anything more powerful than ships mentioned above.

What we can expect is more versatility and fun on the tables for Scum players and for their opponents.

Great expansion! Good job FFG.

In my opinion (having flown the Viper to some tournament success), the Viper was OK and fun to use but it was just that, OK. Scum have the best pilot and crew options in the game so why settle for OK?

Now with the second title being added they get a new lease of life but maybe not enough to compete with the rest that scum has to offer.

The PS4 StarViper Threek, with his Shadow and Mimic ability will be the most interesting. I am hoping it is small ship only but I have a feeling it won't be. A StarViper with Boba Fett's ability, a second Fenn or Teroch, even Palob or Torkil is going to be very interesting, especially when coupled with the Virago title for Fire Control System which he essentially gets for free due to the point reduction.

The PS6 ace, Galan Oberos will need an exceptional ability to be able to knock Guri off the top Viper (sorry Orton) spot. We may see Galan with VI but without a decent ability he won't compete with Teroch or Fenn who are just plan superior. Curved Barrel Roll or not.

The real take away for me is the options it presents. With the Ion Discharge rumored to allow you to pass received ion tokens to other ships (friend or foe) and the Pulse Ray Shield a constant source of ion/regeneration, Dace Bonearm becomes an interesting option, essentially dealing a damage to someone in the end phrase, for free whilst you regenerate a shield.

The Harpoon missile, I am going to assume is Scum only, can't see the other factions using it and why would they, it is a super Assault Missile and as mentioned before, Scum get all the best options. (also, Harpoon + Ruthlessness would be a joke)

With all that being said, the Havoc and Wookie Gunship will be well established by the time these ships hit the board and the era of auto damage and bombs will be quite prominent. Rebel bombers with Sabine and Scum Havoc with Nym and Cad Bane are going to be meta stables in my opinion, forcing anything with less than six health off the tables for awhile.

1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

The PS4 StarViper Threek, with his Shadow and Mimic ability will be the most interesting. I am hoping it is small ship only but I have a feeling it won't be.

Sorry, what's the shadow and mimic ability?

Just now, Tam Palso said:

Sorry, what's the shadow and mimic ability?

We don't know yet. People are inferring from what little is visible of the two unique conditions that Thweek (the name is just visible on the conditions) will use them, and that they will apply one to him and one to a(n enemy) ship, and allow him to copy some part of their PS or ability. Best guess is probably 'Shapeshift' and 'Mimic' or something like that.

But this is all complete guesswork at this stage.