E-Wing is 3/3/2/3 with barrel roll and Evade - and most notably has a much better upgrade bar - it equips Torpedoes in addition to System and Astromech slots (with the System slot notoriously raising the cost of ships over expected) AND the shields + astro make it a great position for Regen, taking synergy into account.
Also I'm sure everyone will tell you E-Wings are like 2-3 points overcosted in the first place too.
11 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:Good to see these two ships getting fixes.
I think the Vaksai title probably should have been 1 point itself to prevent some of the crazy 0/1 point upgrade spam posted here. I know the X-Wing is pretty horrendously overcosted etc. but seriously, making the Cartel Marauder cost 21 points (instead of 20) to get its goodies would still make it a great list filler while preventing 5xBMST/Tracers/Chips/Failsafe shenanigans. That just seems a little... much.
None of the crazy upgrade spam is really that crazy though. For the most part it's a bunch of cards that don't get taken because they are either too expensive or the opportunity cost of taking them it too high.
1 minute ago, heychadwick said:.. .
I'm glad you don't see it as broken. I don't think it's broken. I'm especially thinking of the Kihraxz. You need to put a lot of points into it to make it really "exceptional". That's still points to drop into it. I think it can make them competitive, but it doesn't make them broken.
I think both of these ships with titles need to be compared to the Fang Fighter and viewed through that lense.
Yeah I don't see it as broken, but there is more than plenty of potential to become broken with release of future upgrade cards. But yeah now you can make talonbane with EU vectored Thrusters and Autothrusters and PTL. That will become one heck of an arc dodger with a cloak device. And all of that upgrades would only cost him 7 points with the cloaking device.
4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:I'm not saying it sucks, but I can't see it as "free" auto thrusters.
I prefer to see it as a free Fire Control System and a down payment on the Illicit upgrade of my choice.
Just now, WWHSD said:None of the crazy upgrade spam is really that crazy though. For the most part it's a bunch of cards that don't get taken because they are either too expensive or the opportunity cost of taking them it too high.
Correct, but:
You now have a 5x3/2/4/1 statline that can punish arc-dodgers (BMST) that it can't get guns on, and has unlimited unsuccessful and up to five successful attempts to create a double-mod shot scenario for the other 4 3-attack ships. That's pretty nutty.
A T-65 needs, at minimum, -2 squad point cost now just to be able to stand up to that in a straight-up joust, and will lack the additional flexibility that Tracers/BMST provide.
3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:I prefer to see it as a free Fire Control System and a down payment on the Illicit upgrade of my choice.
Well, don't forget that Virago itself still costs 1 point, so that's only the "Free" FCS really.
6 hours ago, tsondaboy said:-3 cost!!!
Whos willing to bet that soon all the nerfherders will be crying that starvipers are OP.
All the podcasts (except Kessel Run) are planning their hour long whine fests as we speak!
1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:Well, don't forget that Virago itself still costs 1 point, so that's only the "Free" FCS really.
Yeah, all three points are going towards FCS+Virago. The "down payment" on the Illicit is due to the Virago tax already being paid.
9 minutes ago, Marinealver said:There needs to be some point disparity between the ships. You can't have every ship in the 20-22 point range. But I do agree that many ships above the 25 point range don't bring enough to the table to justify their point cost. But 20 points for essentially an E-wing? Nah.
There needs to be point disparity between ships when the ships themselves are different. The generic starviper and protectorate are virtually identical, so there should NOT be a big point difference bewteen them. Once you get into the uniques there's more potential for the ships to be different if you take the title on the viper.
4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:Yeah I don't see it as broken, but there is more than plenty of potential to become broken with release of future upgrade cards. But yeah now you can make talonbane with EU vectored Thrusters and Autothrusters and PTL. That will become one heck of an arc dodger with a cloak device. And all of that upgrades would only cost him 7 points with the cloaking device.
I don't expect PTL talonbane to be that big a thing. He doesn' thave a ton of green moves, he can't PTL every round and clear with hard turns like a protectorate or an interceptor. Mindlink will still be a thing though (at least until it gets nerfed)
@WWHSD Additional frame of reference: Those 5x Cartel Marauders will now have similar damage output from first round of combat as 5x Blue Squadron Pilot, while having similar overall durability and costing a full 10 squad points less. They're going to totally outclass the jousters of the other factions, with additional flexibility outside of jousting.
Edited by RampancyTW7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:There needs to be point disparity between ships when the ships themselves are different. The generic starviper and protectorate are virtually identical, so there should NOT be a big point difference bewteen them. Once you get into the uniques there's more potential for the ships to be different if you take the title on the viper.
I don't expect PTL talonbane to be that big a thing. He doesn' thave a ton of green moves, he can't PTL every round and clear with hard turns like a protectorate or an interceptor. Mindlink will still be a thing though (at least until it gets nerfed)
I'm thinking he might be better of with Expertise..
2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:@WWHSD Additional frame of reference: Those 5x Cartel Marauders will now have similar damage output from first round of combat than 5x Blue Squadron Pilot, while having similar overall durability and costing a full 10 squad points less. They're going to totally outclass the jousters of the other factions.
Crack swarm PS kills a kihraxz before it can shoot. Maybe even 2 with a little luck (3 shots at range 2 would be 6 dice with 3 crackshots. So if you roll 6 hits/crits and they don't roll 2 evades on more than 1 attack, or 5 hits/crits and they don't roll more than 1 evade per shot, you can kill 2). Then if the kihrazx thread tracer you only have 3 actual attacks for damage, so probably aren't killing more than 1 tie unless dice swing hard. Next round 5 ties can probably kill another kihraxz.
4 ship rebel kills a kihraxz before it fires as well. Would be harder for it to kill two, though remotely possible. The kihraxz are then forced to shoot at biggs and one of them is -1 attack from rex, meaning beyond range 1 you have decent odds of biggs surviving if they use thread tracers. Lower chance if they don't.
Just now, Zazaa said:I'm thinking he might be better of with Expertise..
Also a good option as long as you don't kturn too often. Can't get evades like intensity, but doesn't require recharging.
10 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:@WWHSD Additional frame of reference: Those 5x Cartel Marauders will now have similar damage output from first round of combat than 5x Blue Squadron Pilot, while having similar overall durability and costing a full 10 squad points less. They're going to totally outclass the jousters of the other factions.
Cartel Marauder + Vaskai + Hull + Engine Upgrade = 25 points
Blue Squadron Novice = 24 points
That puts the Marauder almost on par with the the Blue Squadron but it is quite a bit more susceptible to crits with its 1 shield and 5 hull. Give the Blue Squad Integrated Astromech and the 1 point Astromech of your choice and they end up costing the same but the Blue Squad being more durable and much more crit resistant.
The 1 point discount on upgrades goes a long ways to removing the upgrade tax from the modifications that affect your statline or action bar but it doesn't completely negate it.
1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:Crack swarm PS kills a kihraxz before it can shoot. Maybe even 2 with a little luck (3 shots at range 2 would be 6 dice with 3 crackshots. So if you roll 6 hits/crits and they don't roll 2 evades on more than 1 attack, or 5 hits/crits and they don't roll more than 1 evade per shot, you can kill 2). Then if the kihrazx thread tracer you only have 3 actual attacks for damage, so probably aren't killing more than 1 tie unless dice swing hard. Next round 5 ties can probably kill another kihraxz.
4 ship rebel kills a kihraxz before it fires as well. Would be harder for it to kill two, though remotely possible. The kihraxz are then forced to shoot at biggs and one of them is -1 attack from rex, meaning beyond range 1 you have decent odds of biggs surviving if they use thread tracers. Lower chance if they don't.
Obvious it's not unbeatable and is prone to being PS killed. That isn't the point. The point is that it totally obsoletes the ships from other factions that fill the same role. 20 points of K-fighter is now outright better at jousting than 22 point of X-wing + IA or B-wing AND can do things they can't.
1 minute ago, RampancyTW said:Obvious it's not unbeatable and is prone to being PS killed. That isn't the point. The point is that it totally obsoletes the ships from other factions that fill the same role. 20 points of K-fighter is now outright better at jousting than 22 point of X-wing + IA or B-wing AND can do things they can't.
When's the last time you saw 22 point xw-ings or b-wings jousting? You don't balance to squads that are already underperforming.
4BZ would be a fairly similar build. 1 less attack die, less agility, but more health. Same Pilot Skill. And even that hasn't been seen much in a long time.
3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:Cartel Marauder + Vaskai + Hull + Engine Upgrade = 25 points
Blue Squadron Novice = 24 points
That puts the Marauder almost on par with the the Blue Squadron but it is quite a bit more susceptible to crits with its 1 shield and 5 hull. Give the Blue Squad Integrated Astromech and the 1 point Astromech of your choice and they end up costing the same but the Blue Squad being more durable and much more crit resistant.
The 1 point discount on upgrades goes a long ways to removing the upgrade tax from the modifications that affect your statline or action bar but it doesn't completely negate it.
BSP, not BSN.
To make a better comparison to the BSN, you can do Crack or Mindlink BSA + Hull upgrade with BMST. Shoots first and has crack shot but a little less durability.
Just now, RampancyTW said:Obvious it's not unbeatable and is prone to being PS killed. That isn't the point. The point is that it totally obsoletes the ships from other factions that fill the same role. 20 points of K-fighter is now outright better at jousting than 22 point of X-wing + IA or B-wing AND can do things they can't.
I don't know about that. They go after those Rebel ships, one of them has to waste their attack to give the others TLs on a single ship (which are lost if you plaster that ship) and then they have to spend another to re set up - it eats into the immediate efficiency of the swarm while that particular build does nothing to solve the issue that they're still 2 AGI 5 HP and no defensive mods other than probably 1 focus - which they don't want to spend because they need it for Thread Tracers. And keeping them that cheap means you're not adding stuff like EU or VT which they really like.
That said, I don't think pure jousting X-Wings were ever really "great" even when the game was brand new. That's not a big bar to hop.
3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:When's the last time you saw 22 point xw-ings or b-wings jousting? You don't balance to squads that are already underperforming.
4BZ would be a fairly similar build. 1 less attack die, less agility, but more health. Same Pilot Skill. And even that hasn't been seen much in a long time.
The CMs get better mods in the initial joust and free BMST, which is what makes them so much better. The point is that those underperforming ships now all need similar fixes to be able to perform the same role that the generic K-fighter occupies. Spinning the wheel of powercreep pretty hard.
Vaksai being 1 point would still allow all of the excellent goodness being discussed in here without making it so flat-out better than the other options.
10 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:BSP, not BSN.
To make a better comparison to the BSN, you can do Crack or Mindlink BSA + Hull upgrade with BMST. Shoots first and has crack shot but a little less durability.
Cartel Marauder + Vaskai + Vectored Thrusters + Hull Upgrade = 23
Blue Squad = 22
Again, you end up with a pretty close comparison here. You end up with one ship that has 6 hits behind 2 agility and another with 8 behind 1 agility. The Khiraxz is still much more susceptible to crits.
Jousters are in a bad place. The Khiraxz title lets you take a few tools that let it do something other than just joust. Not sure why making one ship suck less is getting so much hate.
The Wookie ship seems like it's going to be much more likely to displace Rebel jousters than the Khiraxz is.
4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:Cartel Marauder + Vaskai + Vectored Thrusters + Hull Upgrade = 23
Blue Squad = 22
Again, you end up with a pretty close comparison here. You end up with one ship that has 6 hits behind 2 agility and another with 8 behind 1 agility. The Khiraxz is still much more susceptible to crits.
Alternatively, you do VTS+PRS+Chips+Tracers+BMST for those 22 points. I think it's pretty silly to try to stack upgrades on to directly mimic the abilities of these other ships as opposed to sticking on upgrades that maximize their role as a jouster.
9 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:The CMs get better mods in the initial joust and free BMST, which is what makes them so much better. The point is that those underperforming ships now all need similar fixes to be able to perform the same role that the generic K-fighter occupies. Spinning the wheel of powercreep pretty hard.
Vaksai being 1 point would still allow all of the excellent goodness being discussed in here without making it so flat-out better than the other options.
Sure, the marauders are better. My point is that the lists you're comparing it to aren't good. The fixed marauders should be better. You don't hold back on one ship to keep it from surpassing another bad option. You try to make the one you're looking at actually usable and worry about the other one later. I'll say it again:
it's not power creep to make something better than another bad option.
Power creep is making something better than the current best stuff. Or arguably, even making something as good as the current OP stuff. But this is not on the level of jumpmasters. It's not OP, and it's not power creep.
Edited by VanderLegion31 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:it's not power creep to make something better than another bad option.
True (that B-wings aren't played anymore), but c'mon. B-wings used to be really good . To say that the Kihraxz isn't power creep compared to B-wings, because B-wings suck, well ... I mean ...
This is the very definition of power-creep. You can argue that the power-creep is warranted, maybe, but arguing that it's not power-creep just isn't a good argument.
I, personally, miss when B-wings were good. Many of y'all won't remember that B-wings were arguably the first power-creep in the game, because they all but displaced X-wings. Now B-wings are so bad, they're being used as an argument that other similarly costed things should be much better than they are.
For some people -- not all; it's highly subjective -- the power-creep is depressing.
Edited by Jeff Wilder1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:True, but c'mon. B-wings used to be really good . To say that the Kihraxz isn't power creep compared to B-wings, because B-wings suck, well ... I mean ...
This is the very definition of power-creep. You can argue that the power-creep is warranted, maybe, but arguing that it's not power-creep just isn't a good argument.
I, personally, miss when B-wings were good. Many of y'all won't remember that B-wings were arguably the first power-creep in the game, because they all but displaced X-wings. Now B-wings are so bad, they're being used as an argument that other similarly costed things should be much better than they are.
For some people -- not all; it's highly subjective -- the power-creep is depressing.
B-wings were pushed out by torpedo jumpmasters. And crackswarms probably (if they weren't already gone by then). I'm not arguing whether the game has power creeped in the past. I'm just saying THIS is not power creep. It's not pushing the game any further than it already is, it's just bringing uncompetitive ships more in line with actual competitive stuff.
Just now, VanderLegion said:I'm not arguing whether the game has power creeped in the past. I'm just saying THIS is not power creep. It's not pushing the game any further than it already is, it's just bringing uncompetitive ships more in line with actual competitive stuff.
But that's what power-creep is. Power-creep is misjudging where the line is, so something becomes too good. Then "fixing" the misjudgment by pushing other stuff up to the misjudged line of good, risking pushing that stuff further than it should be.
Fixes that (attempt to) push stuff to the level of the most powerful current stuff is exactly what power-creep is.