Oh I'm content with both the serious business competition x-wing, and the beer and pretzels version ? I'm just trying to say why I think the forums have become very fiery

absolutely. These forums are ridiculous. it's part of my entertainment, honestly

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I agree that power creep is a massive turn-off for players. Even if we were getting overpowered ships people had nostalgia for, instead of things like... the jumpmaster... it would be best to be avoided. It's inevitable that people will come in and out of the game, but I'm much more concerned about people saying rude things to people you mentioned. For instance, at Stele after Travis had a bad run I gave him all sorts of a hard time about it, but because he knows it's a joke. Was anyone rude to you, or is this just concern that we were being mean to each other? If you saw anyone being rude to opponents or anyone else that wasn't in on the joke, please call them out on it. If you aren't comfortable doing it in public, I'd be more than happy to yell at someone in private for making the community a worse place. It's important that everyone who travels to tournaments has an opportunity to have a good time with good people, even if they aren't winning.

Yes, Nova though less than a year here, and before the Pacific NW.

No one has been rude to me, not what I meant. And if they were rude, I would just not listen. I just saw some rude words spoken at Worlds though. Multiple instances of cheating. Multiple instances of people having their stuff stolen off their tables. Just general *** behaviour multiple times.

I do get sad though for people who show up a tiny 'tournaments' and have absolutely no chance at winning a game because they are playing a mediocre list. The power level of lists has a much wider variety than it used to in this game. Dengaroo absolutely shat upon random lists, though thankfully gone now. Parattanni is pretty similar, even in it's nerfed form. The large variety in list power has a lot to with the amount of ships / cards in the game, due to combination explosion.

33 minutes ago, So Crates said:

This podcast. I listened, I listened to the whole thing. And, in regards to the meta whining, I kept hearing you say "I don't understand.... I don't understand".

Well, figuratively stroking my long grey beard now, I've been playing competitive miniatures and cards games for a long time. Like, since the 80s. I've seen games rise and fall over and over. Sometimes games will phoenix, and come back from ashes of a fall. Not often though.

So, here's an explanation for you. When games begin to falter, is when they change from what they started as. X-wing began as a pretty non-serious beer and pretzels game that was based on f'ing Star Wars. Holy **** that's awesome, people said. People started playing, and loving that the game was both a good game, and Star Wars.

Two things changed pretty recently:

1 -> Episode 7 came out, and the game exploded in popularity. Many people who never give serious thought to the term "fly casual" started to play, and took the game *very* seriously. Many of those people treat the game like Magic, which is much too serious these days Table flipping, cheating, rudeness, stealing. All of those things happened this year at Worlds (well, maybe literally not the table flipping). WAAC above all else.
2 -> Power creep has exploded in this game starting with wave 8, and continuing with wave 9. Ships that were not too long ago thought to be competitive (b-wings, interceptors, a-wings, etc) are now collectively pooped on by both the meta and the new ships. People miss their old ships.

These two shifts have created a forum where people take things too seriously, and many people I know who have loved the game in the past are basically giving up. "Famous" x-wing game people.

Thanks, Socrates - I think this really helpful in gaining further insight on what is going on.

One thing though - I'm not sure holding the peak of competitive play is a good measure of the broad game. I do agree that people are much more serious at 'worlds pyramid' events (usually regionals and higher, less so at many store championships), but I've found store kits and the like are usually really laid back environments. If your local area isn't, I can definitely understand that could cause fatigue.

Also, I completely agree hat it's a problem that the game does not have iconic ships on the table, and likewise want and hope ffg addresses thus, and soon.

(I don't like playing rebels right now, but *man* are b-wing models cool! I want them to be good so badly)

40 minutes ago, So Crates said:

I met most of you at worlds and/or Stele, or at least talked to you if I didn't introduce myself. You seem like decent people, until you seem to need to prove how rude you can be by saying 'git gud' or 'shut up scrub' or 'rekt'.

That's not casual, and it's pretty competitive. I like competition, and I like competitive games. But many people do not, and a lot of those people *used* to play this game, or are on the way out. The forum is currently a combination of both sets of people, and they don't mix well. This explains the massive whining.

Also, you mentioned being worried about x-wing, and you should be. For many games based off of licenses, they basically die as soon as the license marketing dries up. I would be very worried about this game continuing much past episode 9, as "star wars" will not be pushed in the collective consciousness as much.

Fly casual. Rekt. Take your pick.

I'm not sure if we met, but I'm sorry I gave you that impression. I like to joke and jab with people I know, and particularly, self-deprecate.

However, I don't believe I have ever told an opponent to get 'rekt.' I try and be inviting with my opponents, and having 'bad dice' does not really bother me anymore, and I usually congratulate my opponent when they roll super crits, or the like, and try and enjoy the game itself.

The most I've ever said 'rekt,' in a real game was when my opponent was wrecking *me*, and I thought it truly funny or awesome.

All of that said, I'm sorry you feel that way.

As for the competitive scene, more local tournaments are likely the more appropriate venue for laid back gaming. I guess I fundamentally disagree that people can't, or shouldn't, take the game and winning seriously at larger events (though I obviously don't want cheating either).

But even so, compared to all the time games I've played, even large, competitive x-wing events are incredibly fun, and full of fun, friendly players. I've seen nothing like it, and that feeling even extends to both worlds events I've attended.

I'm sorry you had a worse experience :-(, and really hope it gets better for you.

I guess I was late to the clarification... Sorry for the delayed response!

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I guess I was late to the clarification... Sorry for the delayed response!

git gud

8 minutes ago, So Crates said:

Yes, Nova though less than a year here, and before the Pacific NW.

No one has been rude to me, not what I meant. And if they were rude, I would just not listen. I just saw some rude words spoken at Worlds though. Multiple instances of cheating. Multiple instances of people having their stuff stolen off their tables. Just general *** behaviour multiple times.

I do get sad though for people who show up a tiny 'tournaments' and have absolutely no chance at winning a game because they are playing a mediocre list. The power level of lists has a much wider variety than it used to in this game. Dengaroo absolutely shat upon random lists, though thankfully gone now. Parattanni is pretty similar, even in it's nerfed form. The large variety in list power has a lot to with the amount of ships / cards in the game, due to combination explosion.

Oh, I was worried you had meant someone in this thread was rude - would have been very surprising! I'm glad that's not the case. Yes, there are definitely some bad eggs in the community, but the vast majority of people I've met are quite frankly fantastic people. Unfortunate about the behavior at worlds, but hopefuly it's just with as large a group as that there's always some bad actors. Someone stole my shuttle and defender dials right before round 1 last year, for instance

And yes, my main beef with mindlink and jumpmasters as stupid as it sounds is how hard they crush bad lists. Competitively it doesn't matter, because those lists were going to get weeded out anyways, but the current tier 0 lists just STOMP your standard local list, and it's obvious it was never even a real game.

There's a lot of arguments being made on the show and a lot of talking over each other so not sure I got the jist but Travis seemed to be saying that while he thinks jumps and mindlink are a problem he doesn't seem to think it's as bad as the majority of players? I had dinner next to Travis on Sunday and he seemed like a very amiable, intelligent fellow but I just don't see how you can say the meta isn't that bad based on the results. I know it's only one tournament but Paratanni absolutely ran over everything for a good 5 months and as for your argument that many of the top 32 could've easily made the top 16 that also goes both ways. 3 of the non-mind link lists that made the top 16 were 14, 15 and 16 and only got in on MOV so they very easily could've not made it. Yes there's not as much in the top 32 but 17 out of 32 is still pretty **** bad imo. As for what the fix could be I have no idea and won't claim to. Would the meta be worse if you take them out? I can't predict that either but I think most people would agree wave 6 and especially 7 was a lot more balanced than what we have now. Yes there were offenders like palp and tlt but the overall arch types that had success were much broader. All this is coming from the perspective of a Rebel swarm player, though so maybe I'm a bit biased in my perceptions but for me I found it a lot easier to compete in those metas than now. Granted part of that falls on me for not adapting but there was also very few success had by Rebels at Worlds outside of lists with Biggs and or Miranda in them so I think your assertion there might be a bit off too but just my opinion.

Love the illustration of tlt vs small base front arc, shows you wtf I have to deal with all the **** time.

And hey Chris for real sorry for pushing you at Worlds that was uncalled for. If you guys are really gonna declare war on me then I want my stickers back :D.

On 5/30/2017 at 7:31 PM, Marinealver said:

lol the 3rd bullet. Sure all pack up and go home, or go to Armada, oh wait Armada has Flotillas. Nevermind, abandon all hope, or go play Imperial Assault, untill they get something that is broken OP.

Pretty sure something like 15 out of the top 16 at worlds for IA this year was Jabba lists.

14 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

3 are (Ben, Chris, and Tyler).

I'm hoping the video calls will help.

Hopefully you can still enjoy it despite that, but thank you for telling us - it's definitely on our radar now!

Wait, the Krayts putting time into their Podcast/taking feedback??? WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE KRAYTS?!?!?!?!1?

2 hours ago, blairbunke said:

There's a lot of arguments being made on the show and a lot of talking over each other so not sure I got the jist but Travis seemed to be saying that while he thinks jumps and mindlink are a problem he doesn't seem to think it's as bad as the majority of players? I had dinner next to Travis on Sunday and he seemed like a very amiable, intelligent fellow but I just don't see how you can say the meta isn't that bad based on the results. I know it's only one tournament but Paratanni absolutely ran over everything for a good 5 months and as for your argument that many of the top 32 could've easily made the top 16 that also goes both ways. 3 of the non-mind link lists that made the top 16 were 14, 15 and 16 and only got in on MOV so they very easily could've not made it. Yes there's not as much in the top 32 but 17 out of 32 is still pretty **** bad imo. As for what the fix could be I have no idea and won't claim to. Would the meta be worse if you take them out? I can't predict that either but I think most people would agree wave 6 and especially 7 was a lot more balanced than what we have now. Yes there were offenders like palp and tlt but the overall arch types that had success were much broader. All this is coming from the perspective of a Rebel swarm player, though so maybe I'm a bit biased in my perceptions but for me I found it a lot easier to compete in those metas than now. Granted part of that falls on me for not adapting but there was also very few success had by Rebels at Worlds outside of lists with Biggs and or Miranda in them so I think your assertion there might be a bit off too but just my opinion.

Love the illustration of tlt vs small base front arc, shows you wtf I have to deal with all the **** time.

And hey Chris for real sorry for pushing you at Worlds that was uncalled for. If you guys are really gonna declare war on me then I want my stickers back :D.

Hey Blair!

Thanks for responding - It's good to hear from more rebel players, especially someone with as much background and talent as you on the topic!

I definitely agree the wave 6/7 meta was probably a golden period. Granted, I only started playing that Jan 2016, but the field was diverse, and I've tried to read up on metas past.

I'll clarify a point though - I don't feel the meta is good, per se, but what I don't want is a kneejerk reaction from FFG. All things equal, I would prefer probably another round of nerfs to multiple ships, but what the community is generally calling for is ONLY nerfs to jmks and mindlink, which I think could actually make things worse. Although, honestly, I suspect we could ban tjmks overnight, and the meta would be fine. But nerfing them and mindlink, but making no other changes... and I'm genuinely concerned the meta might get much weirder and/or narrower.

Also, I know you prefer rebel swarms, and thus, this is a particularly problem for you. I'd actually like to see that playstyle be viable, as well. But my assertion that rebels almost effectively need biggs or miranda (or both) is likewise a concern. My point being is that if they are the dominant ships, it's hard for me to see why they somehow get LESS good if we remove the main competitive scum components. I suspect we'd just see even MORE of those. For example (honest question), doesn't miranda pose a large problem for a rebel swarm? I know she does for TIE swarms, and I just assumed she would likewise for rebel swarms (perhaps not because of increased HP, but she's still nigh uncatchable). These ships were already poking their heads up before paratanni became big.

Anyway, to circle back, I think I'd tier my stance this way:

1. Things are probably not fine, but I suspect they're far better than the outcry that there is nothing but mindlink available (Gerry and Nand's list indicate otherwise, and clearly Dash/Miranda is competitive)
2. If an action were to be taken, my preference is a wide-reaching, targeted approach to the main offenders across the board (adv. slam, regen, biggs, mindlink, and jmks... there are probably more, but I think those are the biggest. And we can probably even keep regen, though I'm hesistant)
3. If such a large change isn't viable [it isn't], then probably an okay move is to simply super nerf/ban jmks alltogether. I suspect scum is viable without them.

But, what I don't think is a good idea is to nerf mindlink and jmks, as I suspect they may be keeping yet other demons at bay. I absolutely could be wrong - metas, and what affects them, are genuinely hard beasts to predict. But my reasoning is that we've pushed things to incredible efficiencies, and the rebel stress, biggs, and miranda are not just a reaction to mindlink - they're the rebel ultimate form. I don't think more rebels become more viable if the scum components are removed with no further action. And I think Chris may be onto something that Dash may be lurking in the background as the next bogeyman without some checks in place.

And finally, for all the rebel lists we pointed out as viable... the traditional rebel swarm wasn't one of them. To that end... honestly, that sucks. :-(

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

git gud

Rekt.

So just to clarify on git gud/rekt etc. We do not take ourselves seriously. We don't take much related to this game seriously, i hope we don't put off anyone in that regard.

2 hours ago, blairbunke said:

Love the illustration of tlt vs small base front arc, shows you wtf I have to deal with all the **** time.

And hey Chris for real sorry for pushing you at Worlds that was uncalled for. If you guys are really gonna declare war on me then I want my stickers back :D.

I feel like the gate against TLT died because other boogeymen showed up, but I refuse to drop how stupid tlt is compared to every other standard firing arc in the game. Especially now if they're going to print fair turrets and act like anyone should even look at them instead of just throwing tlt on everything. If autothrusters didn't exist we'd all be playing the ywing miniatures the second wave 7 dropped.

You pushed me at worlds? I can't believe you, you monster! If you did I've honestly forgotten about it, no worries. We were pretty in the way of everything when FFG told us we had to move the cameras and such from where they initially told us to put them.

Totally down to go to war though, but I'm keeping your stickers. Can I nominate Duncan as my champion? I need to grow and 6 inches and hit then gym for a few months otherwise...

Wave 6-7 was only a golden period if you weren't a scum player.

3 hours ago, catachanninja said:

Rekt.

So just to clarify on git gud/rekt etc. We do not take ourselves seriously. We don't take much related to this game seriously, i hope we don't put off anyone in that regard.

I take everything seriously. I am offended by everyone, and I hope I offend everyone I see.

3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Wave 6-7 was only a golden period if you weren't a scum player.

Or liked generic pilots that weren't fodder or Crack Shot TIEs. Seriously, that period was aweful between Poe and Soontir Fel with the ridiculousness of their damage mitigation. The only upsie of that meta was that you could wreck Palpaces using Deathrain if you wanted to humiliate them.

It really sounds like so far that people are taking this store champs season way more serious from a competitive level than last time. I'm probably just taking it easy and screwing around. I can make 4 this year and I'm bringing a different list to each because reasons.

Dont worry Krayts, I'm probably saving Scum Dumpster for you guys.

5 minutes ago, emperorscanaries said:

It really sounds like so far that people are taking this store champs season way more serious from a competitive level than last time. I'm probably just taking it easy and screwing around. I can make 4 this year and I'm bringing a different list to each because reasons.

Dont worry Krayts, I'm probably saving Scum Dumpster for you guys.

Good point.

I think people should take SCs as competitively, or casually, as they like. To be super blunt... SCs just don't matter. Please just go and have fun.

But to highlight what Chris said, I think the top-tier lists that are good just demolish casual lists right now. That could make for an unfun time for the casual player, but... it's a "pyramid" level tournament. There are prizes, and a regional bye. This isn't a store kit, or a casual tournament, so likewise... shouldn't a casual player understand that it's a competitive environment too?

I am struggling with what the right balance is. SCs feels about where the gray area is - that brackish water of casual and competitive.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Good point.

I think people should take SCs as competitively, or casually, as they like. To be super blunt... SCs just don't matter. Please just go and have fun.

But to highlight what Chris said, I think the top-tier lists that are good just demolish casual lists right now. That could make for an unfun time for the casual player, but... it's a "pyramid" level tournament. There are prizes, and a regional bye. This isn't a store kit, or a casual tournament, so likewise... shouldn't a casual player understand that it's a competitive environment too?

I am struggling with what the right balance is. SCs feels about where the gray area is - that brackish water of casual and competitive.

One of the things I really liked about this game when I started playing shortly after wave 7 was the balance of the game (I came from 40k). The disparity between a well constructed fun list, a list constructed by a newer tournament player, and a list that won a regionals was not that great. Around the time Dengaroo happened that was no longer the case and that trend has continued.

How much better are the tier 0 lists than the tier 1 lists? To me that is the measure of a balanced game more than whether or not there are 2 good lists or 3 good lists. If you nerf something something will always become the best list. But if the top list had a power level that was over 9000 while everything was at a power level between 5000 and 7000, there's a problem. I'd rather the top list be at power level closer to the rest of the field.

On 5/31/2017 at 9:57 AM, catachanninja said:

There's a the zack matthews???? How does he get so many "T's in his name?

It think he's in league with The Zach Mathews. Perhaps to ruin someone's good name.