8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Basically we all thought /D was going to be amazing, totally missing the fact that X7 defenders would drive all the stuff /D defenders we're good against out of the meta!

I maintain that it wasn't x7, it was Deadeye Scouts that drove TIE/D into a lower tier. Everything /D was good agaisnt was annihilated by Scouts, and the meta stayed punchy enough after they were gone that Ds had trouble penetrating. I've actually had a pretty good Vassal run with TIE/Ds agaisnt Mindlink lists, in part because they're one of the best stress dealers the Empire has, and Protectorates are surprisingly vulnerable to Range 3 control cannon shots.

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

Having said that, I didn't listen to the podcast and am just echoing Bio, so what did I miss?

They discussed the community's poor prediction powers, and one of the examples given was the preference of the/D title over x7 when Veterans was spoiled.

18 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I maintain that it wasn't x7, it was Deadeye Scouts that drove TIE/D into a lower tier. Everything /D was good agaisnt was annihilated by Scouts, and the meta stayed punchy enough after they were gone that Ds had trouble penetrating. I've actually had a pretty good Vassal run with TIE/Ds agaisnt Mindlink lists, in part because they're one of the best stress dealers the Empire has, and Protectorates are surprisingly vulnerable to Range 3 control cannon shots.

This actually makes a lot of sense. /D defenders are surprisingly good against all things not jumpmaster at the moment

lol the 3rd bullet. Sure all pack up and go home, or go to Armada, oh wait Armada has Flotillas. Nevermind, abandon all hope, or go play Imperial Assault, untill they get something that is broken OP.

9 hours ago, TheMinions said:

I'm so sorry. Your lack of a sense of humor must really make it hard to enjoy anything...

Edit: Not that I would ever listen to this podcast.

I have a good sense of humor. When the hosts of the podcast talk over each other it reminds me of The Real on tv. Hard to enjoy whatever humor is being spouted over the cacophony of noise.

Edit. I wonder if the hosts ever listen to recordings of their podcasts? I'm pretty sure they don't.

48 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Edit. I wonder if the hosts ever listen to recordings of their podcasts? I'm pretty sure they don't.

I think that's a pretty safe assumption.

I think there are times that synced turret has the potential to be better than tlt. Kavil'a a fan of it, throwing 4 die attacks out of arc or getting freee refills in arc. I've run him with deadeye and r4 so you can focus to fire the first time, then have your choice of which token to use to fire later. And if you get vblocked, still potentially have TL from the previous round. I've also run deadeye k4 palob. Again, 2 ways to get tokens to fire it, its range pairs better with palob ability and you get fully modded shots. With k4, you could also take vectored thrusters to BR For rang econtrol and still be able to fire. Or steal a token from someone

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

I have a good sense of humor. When the hosts of the podcast talk over each other it reminds me of The Real on tv. Hard to enjoy whatever humor is being spouted over the cacophony of noise.

Edit. I wonder if the hosts ever listen to recordings of their podcasts? I'm pretty sure they don't.

I re-listen, and agree with you.

The issue is skype, and I hate it. Zack (in Wisconsin) and I (in DC) can't always hear the other end well, so we don't even know we're talking over the others.

We're going to try adding actual video so we can all see each other to see if it helps.

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I re-listen, and agree with you.

The issue is skype, and I hate it. Zack (in Wisconsin) and I (in DC) can't always hear the other end well, so we don't even know we're talking over the others.

We're going to try adding actual video so we can all see each other to see if it helps.

I thought all you guys were in one room! I apologise for the comment then. I don't know what kind of lag you're dealing with but the few times I've used it was a disaster.

18 hours ago, Jarval said:

The Synced Turret has been doing fairly well for me so far, but it's really important to not think of it as a competitor to TLT.

But here's the issue- if you aren't thinking of it as a competitor to TLT, then you are choosing to run a worse upgrade, period.

Thank GOODNESS someone took the time to crunch the numbers on this. Synced Turret is terrible with TLT in this game. And the "with TLT in the game" phrase is key. Even if Synced Turret wouldn't be great without TLT existing, it probably wouldn't be useless. Does anyone remember the game before TLT? Ion turret was like, GOOD. Not just ok, it was legitimately a strong upgrade at times in the meta. Maybe power creep means it doesn't do much in today's game, but it would probably still be the go to upgrade on the stresshog. Now with TLT in the game, it is a genuine surprise to see any other turret upgrade at any competitive event. 90% of that is because of the 2-3 range band. Give that to any of these other turrets, and they are probably in business.

6 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I thought all you guys were in one room! I apologise for the comment then. I don't know what kind of lag you're dealing with but the few times I've used it was a disaster.

3 are (Ben, Chris, and Tyler).

I'm hoping the video calls will help.

Hopefully you can still enjoy it despite that, but thank you for telling us - it's definitely on our radar now!

On 5/30/2017 at 1:21 AM, Brunas said:

Now, for the actual discussion I'm so down on Synced Turret being such unbelievable garbage that I would love to be convinced otherwise. Actually, I'd like to be convinced that FFG could ever print a turret that is moderately fair and compete with TLT. In the show I mentioned just making up a range 1-2 turret that we would even consider playing over TLT, which we arbitrarily decided on this as an "overpowered" turret:

Obviously you guys are supposed to run synced turret on scum y-wings with the title and R4 agromech for the same price as tlt. Git Gud

Also I'm pretty sure that Travis is just terrified of rebel 4-ship builds in the same way he is making fun of other people not liking the jumpmaster meta. A lot of people like rebel 4-ship and it's way less obnoxious to play against than an intel agent sloop and poop manaroo.

#hortanstresshogmeta

37 minutes ago, emperorscanaries said:

Obviously you guys are supposed to run synced turret on scum y-wings with the title and R4 agromech for the same price as tlt. Git Gud

Also I'm pretty sure that Travis is just terrified of rebel 4-ship builds in the same way he is making fun of other people not liking the jumpmaster meta. A lot of people like rebel 4-ship and it's way less obnoxious to play against than an intel agent sloop and poop manaroo.

#hortanstresshogmeta

I think 4-ship rebel is REALLY strong right now, and am genuinely confused why more aren't playing it. But as for the aspect of whether it's more or less obnoxious, I'd argue it's equally obnoxious, just differently obnoxious.

And I'm on the record that I'd prefer all of that stuff be toned down - my list included. I just feel that making a large move on just jmks and/or mindlink and nothing else would be a bad move. I think either wider, or more nuanced changes for balance are warranted (or both).

47 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think 4-ship rebel is REALLY strong right now, and am genuinely confused why more aren't playing it. But as for the aspect of whether it's more or less obnoxious, I'd argue it's equally obnoxious, just differently obnoxious.

And I'm on the record that I'd prefer all of that stuff be toned down - my list included. I just feel that making a large move on just jmks and/or mindlink and nothing else would be a bad move. I think either wider, or more nuanced changes for balance are warranted (or both).

My gosh. Stop taking people on here seriously. Also, I prefer 5-ship rebels anyways.

#nerfforumsaccounts

18 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I was one of those players that predicted that TIE/D was way more important than x7. I was wrong. In my defense, and the defense of the other players who advocated /D, I was basing this off the wave 7 meta, and Deadeye Scouts hadn't hit yet. TIE/Ds are great in a high-defense, modest attack meta, but we haven't seen that since Deadeye Scouts hit. Although to be fair, they're still pretty sweet. I even heard that one time somebody beat The Zack Matthews with a couple TIE/Ds when he was running a janky Mindlink list.

There's a the zack matthews???? How does he get so many "T's in his name?

11 hours ago, Kdubb said:

But here's the issue- if you aren't thinking of it as a competitor to TLT, then you are choosing to run a worse upgrade, period.

Thank GOODNESS someone took the time to crunch the numbers on this. Synced Turret is terrible with TLT in this game. And the "with TLT in the game" phrase is key. Even if Synced Turret wouldn't be great without TLT existing, it probably wouldn't be useless. Does anyone remember the game before TLT? Ion turret was like, GOOD. Not just ok, it was legitimately a strong upgrade at times in the meta. Maybe power creep means it doesn't do much in today's game, but it would probably still be the go to upgrade on the stresshog. Now with TLT in the game, it is a genuine surprise to see any other turret upgrade at any competitive event. 90% of that is because of the 2-3 range band. Give that to any of these other turrets, and they are probably in business.

This is really the point - Separate from TLTs power level, it's a great example of dominant design - it simply "crowds out" other turrets at its price point.

Ion, dorsal, and synced turret are actually pretty good... except when you can pay 1-3 more points for what TLT brings. If TLT actually cost more, so that relative delta were higher, then you can start making real tradeoffs in list building for what you get.

I stand by saying a turret that was range 1-2, and got a free TL and focus effect for every shot, would be priced at about 5-6 points. It saves your action to barrel roll, etc, and very often gets 3 hits/crits. It'd be weaker against aces, but stronger against 1-2 agi ships.

1 hour ago, pheaver said:

I stand by saying a turret that was range 1-2, and got a free TL and focus effect for every shot, would be priced at about 5-6 points. It saves your action to barrel roll, etc, and very often gets 3 hits/crits. It'd be weaker against aces, but stronger against 1-2 agi ships.

Oh, I meant you'd have to use your action to focus to have the focus. Basically a synced turret that was always active with no arc requirement.

That sounds about right though - kestal that has a focus for the pilot ability and full mods, or kavil with full mods and barrel rolls would be happy to pay 6 points for that turret.

7 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think 4-ship rebel is REALLY strong right now, and am genuinely confused why more aren't playing it. But as for the aspect of whether it's more or less obnoxious, I'd argue it's equally obnoxious, just differently obnoxious.

I'm shocked more people haven't picked it up. I did worlds prep with the Houston players that brought the Junkyard dogs/Gerry's kids/Apollo Special/krayt ship krayt-bel, and mindlink (esp. scouts) who don't know how to play against it get their teeth kicked in. Even when you do know what to do, it's not an easy matchup.

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I'm shocked more people haven't picked it up. I did worlds prep with the Houston players that brought the Junkyard dogs/Gerry's kids/Apollo Special/krayt ship krayt-bel, and mindlink (esp. scouts) who don't know how to play against it get their teeth kicked in. Even when you do know what to do, it's not an easy matchup.

Krayt ship kraytbel. I'm krayting that

This podcast. I listened, I listened to the whole thing. And, in regards to the meta whining, I kept hearing you say "I don't understand.... I don't understand".

Well, figuratively stroking my long grey beard now, I've been playing competitive miniatures and cards games for a long time. Like, since the 80s. I've seen games rise and fall over and over. Sometimes games will phoenix, and come back from ashes of a fall. Not often though.

So, here's an explanation for you. When games begin to falter, is when they change from what they started as. X-wing began as a pretty non-serious beer and pretzels game that was based on f'ing Star Wars. Holy **** that's awesome, people said. People started playing, and loving that the game was both a good game, and Star Wars.

Two things changed pretty recently:

1 -> Episode 7 came out, and the game exploded in popularity. Many people who never give serious thought to the term "fly casual" started to play, and took the game *very* seriously. Many of those people treat the game like Magic, which is much too serious these days Table flipping, cheating, rudeness, stealing. All of those things happened this year at Worlds (well, maybe literally not the table flipping). WAAC above all else.
2 -> Power creep has exploded in this game starting with wave 8, and continuing with wave 9. Ships that were not too long ago thought to be competitive (b-wings, interceptors, a-wings, etc) are now collectively pooped on by both the meta and the new ships. People miss their old ships.

These two shifts have created a forum where people take things too seriously, and many people I know who have loved the game in the past are basically giving up. "Famous" x-wing game people.

I met most of you at worlds and/or Stele, or at least talked to you if I didn't introduce myself. You seem like decent people, until you seem to need to prove how rude you can be by saying 'git gud' or 'shut up scrub' or 'rekt'.

That's not casual, and it's pretty competitive. I like competition, and I like competitive games. But many people do not, and a lot of those people *used* to play this game, or are on the way out. The forum is currently a combination of both sets of people, and they don't mix well. This explains the massive whining.

Also, you mentioned being worried about x-wing, and you should be. For many games based off of licenses, they basically die as soon as the license marketing dries up. I would be very worried about this game continuing much past episode 9, as "star wars" will not be pushed in the collective consciousness as much.

Fly casual. Rekt. Take your pick.

Tlts are lame. So are pwts. Nerf them to range 1-2

22 minutes ago, So Crates said:

This podcast. I listened, I listened to the whole thing. And, in regards to the meta whining, I kept hearing you say "I don't understand.... I don't understand".

Well, figuratively stroking my long grey beard now, I've been playing competitive miniatures and cards games for a long time. Like, since the 80s. I've seen games rise and fall over and over. Sometimes games will phoenix, and come back from ashes of a fall. Not often though.

So, here's an explanation for you. When games begin to falter, is when they change from what they started as. X-wing began as a pretty non-serious beer and pretzels game that was based on f'ing Star Wars. Holy **** that's awesome, people said. People started playing, and loving that the game was both a good game, and Star Wars.

Two things changed pretty recently:

1 -> Episode 7 came out, and the game exploded in popularity. Many people who never give serious thought to the term "fly casual" started to play, and took the game *very* seriously. Many of those people treat the game like Magic, which is much too serious these days Table flipping, cheating, rudeness, stealing. All of those things happened this year at Worlds (well, maybe literally not the table flipping). WAAC above all else.
2 -> Power creep has exploded in this game starting with wave 8, and continuing with wave 9. Ships that were not too long ago thought to be competitive (b-wings, interceptors, a-wings, etc) are now collectively pooped on by both the meta and the new ships. People miss their old ships.

These two shifts have created a forum where people take things too seriously, and many people I know who have loved the game in the past are basically giving up. "Famous" x-wing game people.

I met most of you at worlds and/or Stele, or at least talked to you if I didn't introduce myself. You seem like decent people, until you seem to need to prove how rude you can be by saying 'git gud' or 'shut up scrub' or 'rekt'.

That's not casual, and it's pretty competitive. I like competition, and I like competitive games. But many people do not, and a lot of those people *used* to play this game, or are on the way out. The forum is currently a combination of both sets of people, and they don't mix well. This explains the massive whining.

Also, you mentioned being worried about x-wing, and you should be. For many games based off of licenses, they basically die as soon as the license marketing dries up. I would be very worried about this game continuing much past episode 9, as "star wars" will not be pushed in the collective consciousness as much.

Fly casual. Rekt. Take your pick.

one: thanks for listening

two: the game is very beer and pretzels if you are content with that. Nobody is making you go to the tournaments except for your own desire for plastic swag. There are more casual formats than ever in the game. I would put it on par with MTG's EDH format, Cube, and tiny leaders. If you don't like 100 point dogfighting competitive tournaments; don't listen to our cast. We never pretended to be anything else. Also if you don't like the competitive mindset, don't got to competitive tournaments. Or better yet: organize a tournament around a different format (escalation, mario kart, highlander)

Rudeness and cheating (Not sure how much stealing or table flipping I've witnessed) is something we and the rest of the community are very much opposed to. We and almost every other cast cover those issues as they come up, and the torch-and-pitchfork community polices this in lieu of floor rules (shoutout THEzackmathewscarolinakraytspodcast).

31 minutes ago, So Crates said:

This podcast. I listened, I listened to the whole thing. And, in regards to the meta whining, I kept hearing you say "I don't understand.... I don't understand".

Well, figuratively stroking my long grey beard now, I've been playing competitive miniatures and cards games for a long time. Like, since the 80s. I've seen games rise and fall over and over. Sometimes games will phoenix, and come back from ashes of a fall. Not often though.

So, here's an explanation for you. When games begin to falter, is when they change from what they started as. X-wing began as a pretty non-serious beer and pretzels game that was based on f'ing Star Wars. Holy **** that's awesome, people said. People started playing, and loving that the game was both a good game, and Star Wars.

Two things changed pretty recently:1 -> Episode 7 came out, and the game exploded in popularity. Many people who never give serious thought to the term "fly casual" started to play, and took the game *very* seriously. Many of those people treat the game like Magic, which is much too serious these days Table flipping, cheating, rudeness, stealing. All of those things happened this year at Worlds (well, maybe literally not the table flipping). WAAC above all else.

Hey, so thanks for the feedback and background. Some questions for you if you have a second! From my experience locally (which is both anecdotally and short - only since late 2015) the game has gotten both more popular and much more casual, at least in NC. There's still those of us that put far more time and effort than is reasonable into "gitting gud", but we're few and far between. Have you seen the opposite locally? Where is locally, nova area?

Quote

2 -> Power creep has exploded in this game starting with wave 8, and continuing with wave 9. Ships that were not too long ago thought to be competitive (b-wings, interceptors, a-wings, etc) are now collectively pooped on by both the meta and the new ships. People miss their old ships.

These two shifts have created a forum where people take things too seriously, and many people I know who have loved the game in the past are basically giving up. "Famous" x-wing game people.

I met most of you at worlds and/or Stele, or at least talked to you if I didn't introduce myself. You seem like decent people, until you seem to need to prove how rude you can be by saying 'git gud' or 'shut up scrub' or 'rekt'.

That's not casual, and it's pretty competitive. I like competition, and I like competitive games. But many people do not, and a lot of those people *used* to play this game, or are on the way out. The forum is currently a combination of both sets of people, and they don't mix well. This explains the massive whining.

Also, you mentioned being worried about x-wing, and you should be. For many games based off of licenses, they basically die as soon as the license marketing dries up. I would be very worried about this game continuing much past episode 9, as "star wars" will not be pushed in the collective consciousness as much.

Fly casual. Rekt. Take your pick.

I agree that power creep is a massive turn-off for players. Even if we were getting overpowered ships people had nostalgia for, instead of things like... the jumpmaster... it would be best to be avoided. It's inevitable that people will come in and out of the game, but I'm much more concerned about people saying rude things to people you mentioned. For instance, at Stele after Travis had a bad run I gave him all sorts of a hard time about it, but because he knows it's a joke. Was anyone rude to you, or is this just concern that we were being mean to each other? If you saw anyone being rude to opponents or anyone else that wasn't in on the joke, please call them out on it. If you aren't comfortable doing it in public, I'd be more than happy to yell at someone in private for making the community a worse place. It's important that everyone who travels to tournaments has an opportunity to have a good time with good people, even if they aren't winning.

As for the future of the game past episode 9... I don't know, the game seemed popular in 2012 with absolutely no real Star Wars movies out there or anything, so I'm not sure I buy it dying after episode 9, even if there weren't going to be more movies after that. Though I'm sure Disney will continue to milk the series with annualish movies for most of the rest of my life anyways!