Let's face it, X-wing is getting harder and harder to predict and control with every wave that gets released, and new cards may end up significantly affecting other future releases.

So far FFG's solution has been to nerf certain cards and powers into oblivion (byebye Zuckuss and Manaroo :'( ), choosing to just eliminate some of them entirely in order to free up design space.

I know that ironically, the cards I mentioned in my example where faction specific, but what brought them into the spotlight was a list made from the sum of many different parts. Dengaroo for example, used lone wolf, engines upgrade, PTL and Contracted Scouts used Deadeye, guidance chips etc.

The main excuse we hear for the rise of our new toilet seat overlords was that it was very hard to anticipate the combos that created these monstrous lists.

And this trend may continue if upgrades are cross faction. I think it would be much better to control releases in the future if upgrades are faction specific. If FFG believes an upgrade is essential to all factions, it can release a variation of it, taking into consideration that factions strengths, weaknesses and potential combos (totally random-just-to-make-a-point example: PTL for Imperials not allowing focus action, or Autothrusters for rebels costing 3).

On the one hand it may be too late to implement something like this, since there are tons of cross-faction upgrades out there already, on the other hand I 'd rather see something like this implemented from now onwards, rather than seeing upgrades getting nerfed to a point where they become borderline unusable.

Only exception to this should probably be weapons.

Manaroo is dead?

Crap, meta-wing is broken. It still lists it as #2.

2 minutes ago, haslo said:

Manaroo is dead?

Crap, meta-wing is broken. It still lists it as #2.

Try to understand the insignificance of a specific example where i just try to clarify what im saying and focusing on what is actually being discussed, which is not whether Manaroo is dead, fixed, or broken. We have enough **** posts as it is on this forum.

For some people the fun lies entirely in discovering new lists and combinations. Limiting each card to a faction will destroy that funtype.

As for many of these questions the answer I see is: more game modes.

WotC with Magic supports 16, X-Wing has 2: 100/6 and epic, and only one is really supported. Introducing new modes would solve so many problems. The only downside is that the self-restricting players would have less events to play.

Given that the most dramatic errata "nerfs" thus far have had to have been to faction-specific mechanics ... TIE Phantom, Palpatine, X7, Manaroo, R4 Agromech, etc (Deadeye the exception) ... I don't think this is the right way to go. Non-faction specific has some inherent balancing to it as if something is over/under powered, it tends to be that way for everyone.

Heck, of the things still regularly proposed around here for nerfherding, the only one I can think of that comes up regularly that isn't faction specific is TLT.

No. Just.. no.

"You can't play your Rebel version of Expose on your TIE Advance! Ban him! Unleash the social media police!"

No, but obviously we are getting more and more upgrades that are factions specific thought. It is good thing that FFG makes more difference between factions than just ships.

I personally like how they do now their upgrade cards. Think about Autothrusters, "Scum only", imagine the poop storm coming from that!

17 minutes ago, Slugrage said:

No. Just.. no.

"You can't play your Rebel version of Expose on your TIE Advance! Ban him! Unleash the social media police!"

I don't think it would be designed that way really. The point would be to have different cards for different factions (not just copies of the same card). Like Imperials have ruthlessness, scum have fearlessness, and rebels have selflessness.

More faction-specific cards would be nice, it means I don't need to buy scum ships to play rebel/imperial lists (**** you, score to settle!)

I think most of the problem lies with the number of playtesters and the short amount of time they have to "theory craft" squad builds. Someone recently figured there were 298 upgrade cards. Since we don't know the time frame from concept to production we don't know how long the playtesters have to test squad builds. The playtesters are also volunteers so I assume they have a life outside of X-wing. It's not an 8 to 5 job for them. You have to accept that OP combos will get through.

That being said, I think FFG has done a great job. There are relatively few "nerfs" for a game as deep as X-wing.

While faction specific upgrades might cut down on the number of combos the playtesters have to sort through I don't think that would improve the game.

Going back and changing upgrades to be faction-specific is out of the question. It would make half of the expansions contain cards that can't be used on the ships they're included with, and that is about as improbable as changing point costs.

As for future examples, well, they are doing that to a degree. A lot of cards they release these days are faction specific.

Also, that is a temprorary solution. At some point the amount of cards is going to reach the critical mass again. X-wing needs a rotation or a 2nd edition.

No.

Let me repeat.

No.

4 hours ago, haritos said:

Try to understand the insignificance of a specific example where i just try to clarify what im saying and focusing on what is actually being discussed, which is not whether Manaroo is dead, fixed, or broken. We have enough **** posts as it is on this forum.

Ah, but my post wasn't beside the point at all. Your premise is that FFG primarily likes nerfing things into the ground. There are two things I contest about that: "FFG primarily" and "to the ground".

As for the first: FFG mostly tried to fix imbalances with buffs. Autothrusters are a prime example and broke the dominance of turrets and Fat Han in the wave 4-5 meta. There were multiple attempts to make ordnance viable through buffs (Munitions Failsafe, Deadeye, Captain Jonus, Guidance Chips). The A-Wing and the TIE Advanced got straight cost reductions (Chardaan Refit, TIE/x1). FFG's primary modus operandi is not the nerf, but the buff. That they nerfed stuff so radically in the most recent FAQ is new, and I for one welcome it.

Then about the nerfs. The TIE Phantom nerf kind of killed Echo, but Whisper survived and can still be a strong ship. Out of four nerfs of the latest FAQ (Palpatine, x7, Manaroo and Zuckuss) only Zuckuss doesn't see competitive play and success any more. That's not really "to the ground".

On the topic of whether faction specific upgrades are better than upgrades without faction restriction, I don't know whether any of that has any significance. Sure, non faction restricted upgrades generally have to be a bit weaker in order to restrict their potential for insane combos, and faction specific ones allow more distinction between the factions. That's good. On the other hand, many of the strongest upgrades are faction restricted (Attanni, x7, Dengar, Sabine, Concord Dawn title, K4 droid, Latts Razzi, R3-A2), and for some of them, that doesn't make them any easier to balance. Crew Sabine might in fact mostly be perceived to be a problem because the other factions don't have access to her...

So in conclusion ... I think you base your motivation for your idea on wrong premises, and that doesn't even matter, because your argument doesn't really address said motivation and is also based on different, equally wrong premises.

Ah, I might've worded this a bit too strongly, all in all. Apologies. But you did challenge and try to offend me

Upgrades all being faction specific? Hell no!

Oh sure it may kill some things but is there really a reason multiple sides couldn't use a given upgrade? So the Empire never developed Proton Torpedoes and the Scum have never stole any? Now to "solve" your newly created problem you're going to have to make clones of the upgrades you want in multiple factions which just increases the hassle of storing everything or making sure you have the right upgrade.

All be faction specific? No

More faction specific cards? Sure, why not.

5 hours ago, haslo said:

On the topic of whether faction specific upgrades are better than upgrades without faction restriction, I don't know whether any of that has any significance. Sure, non faction restricted upgrades generally have to be a bit weaker in order to restrict their potential for insane combos, and faction specific ones allow more distinction between the factions. That's good. On the other hand, many of the strongest upgrades are faction restricted (Attanni, x7, Dengar, Sabine, Concord Dawn title, K4 droid, Latts Razzi, R3-A2), and for some of them, that doesn't make them any easier to balance. Crew Sabine might in fact mostly be perceived to be a problem because the other factions don't have access to her...

So in conclusion ... I think you base your motivation for your idea on wrong premises, and that doesn't even matter, because your argument doesn't really address said motivation and is also based on different, equally wrong premises.

Ah, I might've worded this a bit too strongly, all in all. Apologies. But you did challenge and try to offend me

See? Way better answer. And just to repeat, my personal concern isn't whether cross faction upgrade power level is lower than some faction specific upgrades, it's whether it will be possible at all to anticipate combos and avoid future errata.

Things are pretty good right now, not that many nerfs or buffs, but it's only gonna get worse with more releases.

Here's part of the problem with playtesting:

The playtesting group is probably a small-to-medium group of players with a deep knowledge of the game.
1 FFG come up with some concepts, release them to the testers.
Forums are ablaze with people screaming for new ships.
Release deadlines are approaching.
New movie is approaching.
Playtesting ends due to deadlines.
FFG release ships.
Players rejoice.
Minutes later, players go berserk due to "<x> is OP!"
Certain cards are declared broken. Nerfs are demanded.
Other cards are declared DOA. Buffs are demanded.
FFG returns to playtesting group with proposals.
Playtesters do their job.
Tournament deadlines are approaching.
Playtesting ends due to deadlines.
FFG releases FAQ/errata.
Players rejoice.
Minutes later, players go berserk due to "Now <y> is OP!"
Previously OP cards are declared dead.
Other cards are now overpowered because reasons.
A new wave is announced.
Go to 1

2016 was a tsunami of waves (pun very much intended). Fewer waves in a year = further time to playtest and balance. It also gives the meta time to establish, and experiments with outlier lists to come to the fore. It all leads to a more considered series of upgrades in future. It doesn't take a rewrite of the entire game, just a change in consumer attitude. Quality over quantity. Less is more.

3 hours ago, NakedDex said:

2016 was a tsunami of waves (pun very much intended). Fewer waves in a year = further time to playtest and balance. It also gives the meta time to establish, and experiments with outlier lists to come to the fore. It all leads to a more considered series of upgrades in future. It doesn't take a rewrite of the entire game, just a change in consumer attitude. Quality over quantity. Less is more.

Except it wasn't. We got 2 wave releases and 2 aces packs. In 2015 we got 2 wave releases and 2 epic ships. 2014 had 2 wave releases and 2 aces packs. Contrary to popular belief, ffg has NOT increased the rate of releases

It's not just the number of waves, but what the waves contained, and you do need to factor in a new core set, too. Between them all, 2016 skewed the meta more than anything that could have been imagined. Granted, HotR didn't have quite as much of a splash, but Rey is a solid pick for a Rebel anchor, more so than most YT1300 pilots. Meanwhile Jumpmasters and Defenders became the absolute dominant force, bar none.

2015's waves were fine, but arguably the biggest release of the year was the TLT and Palp. Both important tools in either arsenal even now, but nothing like what came subsequently. 2016 saw the Jumpmaster, the /fo (read, Omega Leader), Countess Ryad, Maarek Steele, Jess Pava, Poe Dameron, Inquisitor, Fenn Rau, the Ghost, Asajj, Braylen Stramm and Norra. It also gave us Quickdraw, Backdraft and Manaroo, though their full power wouldn't be felt until later (in the /sf case, until LWF dropped).
And that's not even mentioning upgrades. Integrated Astromech, Attani Mindlink, Comms Relay, Zuckuss, Dengar, Boba Fett, Juke, Kanan Jarrus, R4 Aggromech, /x7 and /D etc etc etc. These are all upgrades that aren't being used because they're new, but because they're incredibly potent compared to what came before. Kanan alone completely replaced Kyle Katarn. Comms Relay and Juke became the build for /fo fighters. Juke and /x7 was standard. Mindlink is still being talked about. Aggromech got nerfed, so ubiquitous was it in play, and IA saw us X-wings without AT, and making Biggs an even bigger pain.

What have we got this year? Pure Sabaac is alright, and Ahsoka isn't terrible in the right hands, and Rex is a nice little filler ship. That's about it. Some decent upgrades in LWF, Inspiring Recruits (still think that's underrated), Ops Spec (ditto), and Kylo, but that's about it. Granted we have a wave to come, and an Epic, but the sheer amount of warp applied in 2016 is disproportionate to any previous year.

The nearest equivalent was the Wave 4/5 era when all you could see on tables was Corran/Dash and Whisper/Chirpy. Dash and Whisper both got nerfed during the subsequent release of Scum via AT and the decloak timing errata, but you still saw them out and about. Every list you see today is based on 2016 ships/upgrades, not just uses them. Again, not just because they're new, but because the 2016 threw the game such a curveball, you can't but use them if you want to stay in competitive play.
I'm not sure about you, but I'm not seeing many Corran or Whisper led lists in competitive events any more than I'm seeing many. Even Soontir - the original indomitable beast - has taken to retirement, and joined the massive graveyard of ships you only take out when you're having a silly, fun game.

I don't mind skewing the meta to incorporate new mechanics, play styles, and ships - that's what keeps the game fresh and interesting - but dropping it all in the space of 12-14 months utterly warps a game, and it's very difficult to claw that back to balance and interest. A lot of people's future in this game will depend entirely on what this years releases - and indeed release schedule - are for the remaining 6 months. "Wave fatigue" is a very real thing, and it has already claimed more than a few players I very highly respected.

14 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I think most of the problem lies with the number of playtesters and the short amount of time they have to "theory craft" squad builds. Someone recently figured there were 298 upgrade cards. Since we don't know the time frame from concept to production we don't know how long the playtesters have to test squad builds. The playtesters are also volunteers so I assume they have a life outside of X-wing. It's not an 8 to 5 job for them. You have to accept that OP combos will get through.

That being said, I think FFG has done a great job. There are relatively few "nerfs" for a game as deep as X-wing.

While faction specific upgrades might cut down on the number of combos the playtesters have to sort through I don't think that would improve the game.

I think it's in the rule book when they were designing wave 1 they played on lunch breaks. I can't imagine that has changed a whole lot.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

As for many of these questions the answer I see is: more game modes.

Totally agree. The game is popular enough for FFG to support of Epic tournaments for a start. I would also welcome a campaign system similar to Armada's.

Economics? If packs contain ONLY cards of their own faction FFG makes less profit (less cross buying for cards like e.g Expertise or Crackshot). And assuming all cards having faction restrictions, having an designated Empire only upgrade in a Rebel or Scum pack with the current model of expensive ship with some cards? This would be more blatantly screaming "PROFIT-move" as the model is right now (Starviper). Would maybe work with cheap card only packs.

No. Just make sure new upgrades are worded clearly and take into consideration power creep. Cards by faction would be a nightmare.

1 hour ago, USCGrad90 said:

Cards by faction would be a nightmare.

Why a nightmare? In what sense?

6 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I think it's in the rule book when they were designing wave 1 they played on lunch breaks. I can't imagine that has changed a whole lot.

If you look at the paper insert that comes in the expansions, you can see the number of playtesters has jumped from Wave 1. They have more people looking at builds now then initially but the number of possible card combinations has skyrocketed.

Can't blame them for playing at lunch, this IS a great game!

Cool topic. Scum calls dibs on Autothrusters, since they're only available with the StarViper anyway.