This is what I've been able to determine so far. Did I miss anything?

Alpha strikes kill regen, focus firing can kill regen, but it is true that other ships can then kill yours.

13 minutes ago, Quarrel said:

This is what I've been able to determine so far. Did I miss anything?

Yes. The point. By a long distance.

I just played a game yesterday.

I have Kylo's shuttle (him on it), Zeta leader, and two zeta pilots.

My opponent had Miranda, Biggs, and Jess (pretty much Nand's worlds list)

I focused Biggs down first, then Jess. I saved Miranda for last. By the time it was just Miranda left, I only had the shuttle and Zeta Leader left. I waited it out 4-5 turns, to make sure both the shuttle and Zeta Leader had shots on Miranda, focused her down, and won.

Not sure what the lesson is here, but it's an example of beating a regen ship.

Predictability kills R2-D2, bumping or stress kills R5-P9. Miranda's 1 agility often negates the regen completely.

I wish my regen lists were auto-win. I must be doing it wrong...

RoV

May I introduce you to my little friend, the Torpmaster.

1 hour ago, Quarrel said:

This is what I've been able to determine so far. Did I miss anything?

I hate to say it, but the fact is you probably just need to get better at the game. People have been beating Regen for literal years. If you can't manage it, it's probably just you. Theres already plenty of suggestions in this thread alone.

Also, the flowbubbles that lead into "Other ships will wreck you." Don't make sense. How does having a turret = you getting wrecked? How does the regen ship not being able to arcdodge = you getting wrecked?

Wait, what regen ships even can arcdodge? If Miranda is dodging arcs she's not regening, so at worst you end up in a stalemate scenario. Poe can only boost. Corran with Engine Upgrade, I guess?

I've definitely not a fan of regen in xwing, and have been for quite some time.

It's certainly beatable, but it can also create NPE's quickly sometimes. The vast majority of which are caused with corran with r2d2, especially with ptl and engine. He can arc dodge or just token up with 3 agility to back him up.

Regen and other forms of damage mitigation are probably why see you see red dice power creep now as you need some way to get damage in quickly.

Regen is often frustrating because it maximizes variance. If Soontir gets lucky and escapes with one hull left, that means you only have to do one more damage to him. If Corran gets lucky and escapes with one hull left, you may have to kill him all over again. There are games where the regen player messes up but also happens to be lucky, and that can be pretty annoying to deal with.

The answer to regen, though, is pretty much 'fly better.' Corran, Miranda, and Poe all have one thing in common: they can die in one round, easy. The tricky part is setting up that round.

3 hours ago, Sir Orrin said:

I focused Biggs down first, then Jess. I saved Miranda for last. By the time it was just Miranda left, I only had the shuttle and Zeta Leader left.

You killed two named X-wings while losing only two generic TIE/fo and taking moderate-or-less damage on everything else. You're already well ahead of the game here. That is not the kind of outcome I'd expect if my opponent was equally skilled.

>I waited it out 4-5 turns, to make sure both the shuttle and Zeta Leader had shots on Miranda, focused her down

1. How do you keep any ship, let alone one with a restricted dial, out of firing range for four turns of a ship that can shoot in any direction and can make the equivalent of 7-speed straights/banks/turns?

2. Did you kill her in one turn of shooting or two? If two, did you shoot her with both ships both turns?

22 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I've definitely not a fan of regen in xwing, and have been for quite some time.

It's certainly beatable, but it can also create NPE's quickly sometimes. The vast majority of which are caused with corran with r2d2, especially with ptl and engine. He can arc dodge or just token up with 3 agility to back him up.

Regen and other forms of damage mitigation are probably why see you see red dice power creep now as you need some way to get damage in quickly.

To be fair, though, there are so many answers for Corran that he's virtually non-existent in the game anymore. Wampa alone can give him an absolute nightmare, and Kylo is pretty much the alpha-counter to him. Hell, I've killed him with Blount using an AHM. It's not hard.

All the regen ships have a defensive defect of some sort:
T-65 X-wings can't get natural evades, and have average HP behind just 2Agi, and have nothing in the way of repositioning or and can't regen after using IA, so there's no "run away and come back to full health" shenanigans.
T-70 X-wings have a single HP over their T-65 counterparts, and the ability to get Autothrusters, but are also a chunk more expensive.
E-wings have 3Agi and evade, but with just 2 hull, they're crazy fragile, and susceptible to a bad roll. They're also crazy expensive, and only have one decent pilot.
Y-wings are... actually lets be serious, you're not putting regen on a Y-wing...
K-wings have... Miranda. She has just 1Agi, is unique, and only triggers her regen by sacrificing an attack die. Her only repositioning ability also denies her the ability to fire, and therefore, regen. It's about as balanced as you can get, really.
ARC-170s are almost always going to be using something other than regen due to their abilities, with the exception of Norra using R2D2, but it's still a slow, 1Agi ship lacking native repositioning or evade.

So I'm really not seeing a problem here. The only high defence ship that can regen was pretty much DOA apart from one pilot (Corran) who is rarer than hens teeth these days. The X-wings aren't exactly the tankiest ships in the world to begin with, and the rest only have 1Agi. If you have trouble killing these, you need to start looking at your own lists, rather than your opponents. (Hint: stop using Fel's Wrath and Kir Kanos together).

1 hour ago, fhdz said:

Wait, what regen ships even can arcdodge? If Miranda is dodging arcs she's not regening, so at worst you end up in a stalemate scenario.

Poe and Miranda. Mostly Miranda.

Poe "only" boosts naturally, but that still lets him zoom past you. He can't shoot you that turn, but you aren't shooting him either. Also, Vectored Thrusters.

Miranda can boost twice as far as Boost. Few ships can put themselves so many different places so far from where they start. And sure, she's not regenning if she SLAMs, but it still creates one of the following situations turn after turn:

• no one shoots anyone
• she shoots you (and heals) but you don't shoot her
• you both shoot each other, but you both effectively deal less damage than normal

It's the worst kind of dodging because it drags the game out.

4 hours ago, Quarrel said:

This is what I've been able to determine so far. Did I miss anything?

Fixed it for ya, put just as much effort into the chart as you did.

You need hard hitters to overcome the regeneration! Recommend some plasma torps and ships that can deliver some serious damage, like Fenn Rau, Talonbane Cobra, Zuckuss, Dengar, etc...

I can't really imagine many anti-regen upgrades for X-Wing, problem is that there is some regen in the game, but not enough to make special upgrades for that.

In fairness, if you're letting Miranda lead a chase, you need to rethink your attack pattern. It's a 1Agi ship. Unless you're firing Hwk primaries, you should be pushing damage through, which forces her to regen, which reduces the potential damage you're taking.

If you're really, really struggling to deal with regen, you honestly need to start looking at control options. Ion alone will shut down R2D2 and prevent Miranda from SLAMing further than 1. Stress will force Poe into green maneuvers, and double-stress will prevent the action altogether. Stress AND ion together will shut down literally anything (it's literally how I won a Regional).

Regen isn't broken. Your approach to regen might be.

2 hours ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Also, the flowbubbles that lead into "Other ships will wreck you." Don't make sense. How does having a turret = you getting wrecked? How does the regen ship not being able to arcdodge = you getting wrecked?

If you try to steer your whole list to focus fire on the regen ship, you give the entire rest of the opposing list easier targets. You're predictable. Easily blocked, easily flanked, easily one-sided-range-1-jousted while the target of your wrath is at 3 behind a rock.

3 hours ago, Mep said:

May I introduce you to my little friend, the Torpmaster.

How many, and what PS?

Two high-PS ships (like Dengar+Tel) can land the torps, which'll do about 6-7 damage. You can probably finish Miranda next turn if you can shoot her with both again, but if you're blocked or dodged you probably won't be able to push through the 3-4 damage it still takes to kill her.

Whenever I try to use low-PS torpedo carriers, I find that pretty much any ship simply charges me and goes from out-of-range to Range 1 in one turn, denying torpedo shots. Especially if my ship has a large base. This isn't just Miranda, it's basically everything. I've given up trying to make them work after zero launches in half a dozen games.

It depends on the regen you're facing:

Miranda: Only has 1AGI, just focus fire her down. If she can't shoot, she can't heal. Break off and come around for another pass when all of your ships can shoot.

Corran: Only has 2 hull. Use BMST, Vader, autoblaster, R5P8, Anti Pursuit Lasers, Proton bombs, Feedback Array, or other forms of auto damage.

Poe: He can regen, but doesn't hit super hard because he doesn't have all the modifiers all the time. Shoot at him with more than one ship, and auto damage is always helpful, too.

Red Leader: Only PS6, you can arcdodge and kill slowly.

R2D2 astro: How many green moves do they have? Predict, block/arc dodge, kill.

R2D2 Crew: You've already dealt hull damage, just keep going.

Gonk: Takes 2 actions to regen a shield. If you can't handle that I can't help you.

Pulsed Ray Shield: Self ion to regen, only goes on ships that are easy to kill. Not a tough one.

But none of these things are dominating the meta. I think most players have figured out how to beat it. Sorry you are having trouble with it.

15 minutes ago, Quarrel said:

How many, and what PS?

Two high-PS ships (like Dengar+Tel) can land the torps, which'll do about 6-7 damage. You can probably finish Miranda next turn if you can shoot her with both again, but if you're blocked or dodged you probably won't be able to push through the 3-4 damage it still takes to kill her.

Whenever I try to use low-PS torpedo carriers, I find that pretty much any ship simply charges me and goes from out-of-range to Range 1 in one turn, denying torpedo shots. Especially if my ship has a large base. This isn't just Miranda, it's basically everything. I've given up trying to make them work after zero launches in half a dozen games.

Ok, this is honestly leading credence to the idea that the problem isn't the lists you're facing, but the lists you're taking and how you fly them. I can (and often do, because it's fun) take a 4x generic TIE Bomber list with missiles and I can honestly say I can spike down any regen ship in the game with that, no issue. I can also do it with just a pair of Scouts (and a smidgen of luck against Miranda, lest I need a follow up shot). The PS isn't the issue in these cases at all. It's just down to attack pattern, targeting, and following through.

Regen ships are expensive. You're incredibly worried about being flanked while essentially setting up a one-turn-kill against a high value target, by ships that are likely considerably lower priority to begin with. Be willing to soak some damage to nail down a high value/threat target early on (especially with Scouts).

1 hour ago, NakedDex said:

I can (and often do, because it's fun) take a 4x generic TIE Bomber list with missiles and I can honestly say I can spike down any regen ship in the game with that, no issue. I can also do it with just a pair of Scouts (and a smidgen of luck against Miranda, lest I need a follow up shot). The PS isn't the issue in these cases at all. It's just down to attack pattern, targeting, and following through.

Regen ships are expensive. You're incredibly worried about being flanked while essentially setting up a one-turn-kill against a high value target, by ships that are likely considerably lower priority to begin with. Be willing to soak some damage to nail down a high value/threat target early on (especially with Scouts).

2 torps rarely spike down a fresh K-wing or ARC in one turn. You have 8 dice to deal 9 damage with.

I can see 4 bombers landing 3 torps. One runs up and blocks the R1 zone of the back 3. Spread wide and staggered enough, nothing can dodge all of them.

3 Contracted Scouts have a harder time sparing bodies for blocking. 2 can't do it and still launch. I presume you have another ship run interference? Do your opponents NOT rush into Range 1 as an ordnance countermeasure?

And I worry about getting flanked because two or three random ships will kill pretty much anything in one or two turns of range 1-2 focused fire.Even a Falcon or Decimator will be almost dead.

2 hours ago, NakedDex said:

In fairness, if you're letting Miranda lead a chase, you need to rethink your attack pattern. It's a 1Agi ship. Unless you're firing Hwk primaries, you should be pushing damage through, which forces her to regen, which reduces the potential damage you're taking.

If you're really, really struggling to deal with regen, you honestly need to start looking at control options. Ion alone will shut down R2D2 and prevent Miranda from SLAMing further than 1.

A single 3 attack ship has trouble pushing damage through a tanky Miranda. 3PO plus regen means you need all 3 dice to hit every turn to kill her...in 8 turns. Her TLT gets you before then. If you have more, do you form up (and let her dodge all of them) or spread arcs (and only shoot her with one or two)?

What's a good ion option? Looks like just Vessary+TIE/D and...Connor Net tricks?

3 hours ago, Quarrel said:

Poe and Miranda. Mostly Miranda.

Poe "only" boosts naturally, but that still lets him zoom past you. He can't shoot you that turn, but you aren't shooting him either. Also, Vectored Thrusters.

Miranda can boost twice as far as Boost. Few ships can put themselves so many different places so far from where they start. And sure, she's not regenning if she SLAMs, but it still creates one of the following situations turn after turn:

• no one shoots anyone
• she shoots you (and heals) but you don't shoot her
• you both shoot each other, but you both effectively deal less damage than normal

It's the worst kind of dodging because it drags the game out.

Yeah, but who seriously takes Vectored Thrusters on Poe over both Autothrusters AND Integrated Astromech? Personally, at least, I find it easier to keep boosting ships in arc than barrel-rolling ones.

The main issue with Miranda is that she's worth so much. If you're winning, there isn't too much to worry about - getting arc on Miranda when she wants to shoot isn't nearly as hard, and doing 2+ damage a turn also isn't too hard. If you're losing, yeah, it's a terrible situation, but it's the SLAM that's to blame rather than the regen. Miranda is annoying when she regens, and annoying when she arc-dodges, but the fact that she can't do both at once makes it possible to deal with her.

All this is assuming that you have something decent left. If you're flying against Miranda with your stresshog or your torpedo-less scout, then yeah, you're screwed. But hey, she's often pushing 50 points, so that doesn't seem too unfair.

Quote

And I worry about getting flanked because two or three random ships will kill pretty much anything in one or two turns of range 1-2 focused fire.Even a Falcon or Decimator will be almost dead.

I mean, if you're trying to focus down the regen ship, those two or three random ships will be taking exactly the same shots on you regardless of whether or not they're flanking you. And I'm kinda curious what regen list has that many ships in it. Mostly I see three ship Miranda lists and two ship Poe/Norra/Corran lists.

4 hours ago, Quarrel said:

How many, and what PS?

Two high-PS ships (like Dengar+Tel) can land the torps, which'll do about 6-7 damage. You can probably finish Miranda next turn if you can shoot her with both again, but if you're blocked or dodged you probably won't be able to push through the 3-4 damage it still takes to kill her.

Whenever I try to use low-PS torpedo carriers, I find that pretty much any ship simply charges me and goes from out-of-range to Range 1 in one turn, denying torpedo shots. Especially if my ship has a large base. This isn't just Miranda, it's basically everything. I've given up trying to make them work after zero launches in half a dozen games.

I have a few other friends, you may want to get to know a little better.